Why did you vote for a nasty, brutish and short life?

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thinkinginpictures
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02 Jan 2020, 1:38 pm

Life is nasty, brutish and short.

It's been so for the entire existence of humanity, even after civilization took hold.

It doesn't need to be nasty, brutish and/or short. In-fact life being nasty, brutish and short is a HUMAN-ONLY DECISION!

We vote for governments who want war, conscription, forced labor, torture and denial of fair trials.

Most humans agree with this, it is evident in every election around the globe: Nobody wants to protect the weak, grant a fair trial, or give guarantee against torture.

Most people want war. Most people also wants wars to be fought by conscripts, and most people agree that work should be forced labor (labor duty) as in: Work, or get jailed.

Life does not need to be like this. We do have a choice of creating a peaceful society with both welfare and personal liberty. Perhaps we can't have all the economic luxuries like big cars or mansions for everybody... but we can have peace, liberty and welfare.

But most people hate this. Therefore they always vote for anything to the right of the Red/Green political parties.



Fnord
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02 Jan 2020, 4:30 pm

People vote for the most charismatic candidates, regardless of whether or not those candidates have any concern for the voters, or even if they're qualified for the job.

Let's get rid of campaigns and campaign ads, and just pass out copies of each candidate's resume -- educational and professional background, where they went to uni and what degrees they've earned, whether or not they are veterans and the conditions of separation from service, and what community services they've volunteered for.

THEN let's vote.


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TwilightPrincess
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02 Jan 2020, 4:43 pm

I also want the results of an IQ test, an ink blot test, copies of creative essays that were written in a high school English class (preferably about an abstract concept like love, peace, friendship, or birds), and a comprehensive collection of his or her social media posts.


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Fnord
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02 Jan 2020, 6:01 pm

... a comprehensive blood test, a CAT scan, a cardio-endurance test...

And let's turn them out on a desert island with only the clothes on their backs and a survival knife, and see if they can last for 40 days without losing their sanity.


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TwilightPrincess
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02 Jan 2020, 6:10 pm

Fnord wrote:

And let's turn them out on a desert island with only the clothes on their backs and a survival knife, and see if they can last for 40 days without losing their sanity.[/color]


A Naked and Afraid situation would be even better. :P

I also want to know ALL the books read in the past ten years and the TV shows and movies watched.


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thinkinginpictures
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03 Jan 2020, 8:02 am

Fnord wrote:
People vote for the most charismatic candidates, regardless of whether or not those candidates have any concern for the voters, or even if they're qualified for the job.

Let's get rid of campaigns and campaign ads, and just pass out copies of each candidate's resume -- educational and professional background, where they went to uni and what degrees they've earned, whether or not they are veterans and the conditions of separation from service, and what community services they've volunteered for.

THEN let's vote.


This won't make any difference. Problem is that just because they have the "right" background, certainly does not mean they want to create a peaceful welfare society instead of a brutish military state.

I don't want people who are "perfect" to govern.

I certainly don't want someone who believes compulsory community service for everybody is "a healthy thing" or any other labor duty. I want liberty, and I favor my personal liberty above my economic liberty. I'd rather be told how not to spend my money, rather than be told where to work - or whether to work at all.

Work should be voluntary, not a duty.



TwilightPrincess
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03 Jan 2020, 8:59 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Fnord wrote:
People vote for the most charismatic candidates, regardless of whether or not those candidates have any concern for the voters, or even if they're qualified for the job.

Let's get rid of campaigns and campaign ads, and just pass out copies of each candidate's resume -- educational and professional background, where they went to uni and what degrees they've earned, whether or not they are veterans and the conditions of separation from service, and what community services they've volunteered for.

THEN let's vote.


This won't make any difference. Problem is that just because they have the "right" background, certainly does not mean they want to create a peaceful welfare society instead of a brutish military state.

I don't want people who are "perfect" to govern.

I certainly don't want someone who believes compulsory community service for everybody is "a healthy thing" or any other labor duty. I want liberty, and I favor my personal liberty above my economic liberty. I'd rather be told how not to spend my money, rather than be told where to work - or whether to work at all.

Work should be voluntary, not a duty.


If work was voluntary, what would we do if everyone decided that they didn’t want to work?

How would these individuals get by economically?

Work is voluntary now, but it’s hard to live on government handouts (I’m not referring to SSDI or SSI which is usually hard but necessary).


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thinkinginpictures
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03 Jan 2020, 10:16 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Fnord wrote:
People vote for the most charismatic candidates, regardless of whether or not those candidates have any concern for the voters, or even if they're qualified for the job.

Let's get rid of campaigns and campaign ads, and just pass out copies of each candidate's resume -- educational and professional background, where they went to uni and what degrees they've earned, whether or not they are veterans and the conditions of separation from service, and what community services they've volunteered for.

THEN let's vote.


This won't make any difference. Problem is that just because they have the "right" background, certainly does not mean they want to create a peaceful welfare society instead of a brutish military state.

I don't want people who are "perfect" to govern.

I certainly don't want someone who believes compulsory community service for everybody is "a healthy thing" or any other labor duty. I want liberty, and I favor my personal liberty above my economic liberty. I'd rather be told how not to spend my money, rather than be told where to work - or whether to work at all.

Work should be voluntary, not a duty.


If work was voluntary, what would we do if everyone decided that they didn’t want to work?

How would these individuals get by economically?

Work is voluntary now, but it’s hard to live on government handouts (I’m not referring to SSDI or SSI which is usually hard but necessary).


I've proposed a Basic Income-system based on the principle of handing out $1000-2000/month (could be any amount in any currency, I'm just making an example) but which will be reduced by say $30 for every $100 earned. This means that if you earn $100, your BI will be only $970 and that's not counting for taxes on the $100 you earn. When you're Basic Income reaches 0, you earn enough to only pay taxes, meaning you'll have even more money left for yourself.

This creates incentive to work, without forcing anyone.

What if everybody decided to live for $1000/month? Well, society might break down, but you could say that to just about anything in life. "What if everybody did this and that" is not a valid argument for anything, because we're not all alike. We are individuals.



TwilightPrincess
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03 Jan 2020, 11:12 am

^^

That would never work. Society WOULD break down.

Who would willingly choose a hard, dirty but necessary job if they could just live on government handouts instead?

Some might but not enough to keep things going.


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thinkinginpictures
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04 Jan 2020, 9:20 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
Who would willingly choose a hard, dirty but necessary job if they could just live on government handouts instead?


People who want more money than government handouts can offer.



Persephone29
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04 Jan 2020, 11:42 am

My life isn't nasty, it's not brutish and I have no idea how long it will be. How long my life lasts is none of my business, that's the realm of the dead.

It's maddening to endure life contemplating one's navel. I like having responsibilities. I like helping my granddaughter learn how to make decent life choices. I like the feeling of exhaustion, a job well done and a paycheck that reflects someone else's appreciation of my labors.

I've participated in a number of your threads, OP. There is a common theme: Misery and Entitlement. Then, when I respond, you go create threads in the Haven accusing people like me who disagree with your philosophy as being 'bullies.'


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kraftiekortie
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04 Jan 2020, 11:47 am

Dependency is something which is like a slow death.



Antrax
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04 Jan 2020, 12:10 pm

Utopic systems are unstable, I've yet to see one proposed or attempted that is not. Real systems have robust buffering capacity that allows them to persist over time.

Back when I was in undergrad, before our finals we would always joke "If none of us show up they won't fail us all." Inevitably we all showed upto our finals, because no one showing up was an unstable solution. If half the people showed up, the half that didn't failed. Invariably we all showed up which is ultimately a good thing, as it is better for society that we studied for and worked hard to pass our final exams.

If you have a society that embraces pure pacifism it is vulnerable to any military oriented society taking it over. If you create a society where government power in concentrated into a single individual it is vulnerable to an unscrupulous character reaching that position.

In my opinion the best societies are ones where power is gained by merit, and where power is divided by competing interests. On the political side representative democracies with separate executives and judiciaries do an ok job of this. One of the most alarming developments in modern politics in the US is how the legislature and executive have become so aligned and as combined those branches determine who sits on the judiciary it has begun spreading to those branches (although lifetime supreme court appointments have mitigated this).

On the economic side, free markets accomplish this far better than command economies. Command economies have a disastrous long term track record, and it's not hard to see why. Command economies concentrate economic power in a few government appointed officials. Free markets distribute it among consumers. While people can complain about how rich Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos or Warren Buffett are, their consumer power is actually rather limited compared to overall populace. Combined those 3 command ~ 300 billion dollars in personal assets. The entire US commands 86 trillion in personal assets meaning they represent 0.3% of the consumer power in the country. Now in a command economy a high ranking government official would control much more of the economic power in the country. Furthermore, none of these 3 men inherited their wealth, instead earning it through innovative ideas and shrewd business practices.


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TwilightPrincess
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04 Jan 2020, 12:11 pm

I think the key is to find something you enjoy doing and do it.

Sometimes struggling with issues like depression can be disabling, though, and can keep people from working. It’s really hard to get on disability for something like that.

If dropping out of the workforce was an option, many people would do it. We aren’t giving disabled people a decent wage. Imagine what it’d be like if we had to support at least twice as many people.

Most of us on WP are relatively lucky for living in the countries that we do because many in the world don’t have anywhere near the same degree of welfare programs that we do.

We need to somehow make the best with what we’ve got by either applying for disability if we need it or by finding some employment that’ll work for us (perhaps even just part-time to start).


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16 Jan 2020, 6:58 am

My life isn't that brutish. It's generally rather peaceful.

Fnord wrote:
People vote for the most charismatic candidates

In my country that's just not an option. Invariably both candidates don't have an ounce of charisma between them.


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