United Methodist Church To Split Over Same-Sex Marriage
07 Jan 2020, 12:19 am
Bravo5150 wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
If you allow homophobia to flourish within the christian church then repurcussions are socially toxic
https://www.news.com.au/world/north-ame ... 38558fbc84
https://www.news.com.au/world/north-ame ... 38558fbc84
How do you suggest we stop "homophobia " from flourishing within the Christian Church?
I am not sure, but I think cyberdad posted that article mainly because of the idea that the preacher it was about seemed to be encouraging violence. I can't make an argument on telling you whether to serve gays at a business you own, but I would think a "kill em all" attitude goes a bit out of bounds for what is allowed with free speech.
I posted the article to illustrate what happens when you allow religious organisations legal permission to circumvent law and allow discrimination against gays.
There are consequences that involve
1. people not being allowed to be married
(see the OPs article)
2. people losing their jobs/livelihood
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... -fired-gay
3. young people not being able to go to school
http://rightnow.org.au/opinion-3/legali ... s-schools/
Number 3 is pertinent in that christian schools that preach homosexuality is wrong effectively give a green light for gay and trans kids to be bullied resulting in the higher than normal suicide rate in these groups
https://lgbtihealth.org.au/statistics/
07 Jan 2020, 4:02 am
VegetableMan wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
If you allow homophobia to flourish within the christian church then repurcussions are socially toxic
https://www.news.com.au/world/north-ame ... 38558fbc84
https://www.news.com.au/world/north-ame ... 38558fbc84
How do you suggest we stop "homophobia " from flourishing within the Christian Church?
I think what some people imply is that we must make sure that this or that group is above criticism.
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07 Jan 2020, 8:28 am
Magna wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I’m not going to present the fact that some people think that gay marriage is wrong as a positive thing. That would hurt my personal sense of morality, especially since these views are so damaging to gay people who are raised in these religions. I can respect the people even if I have no respect for certain beliefs they hold which are offensive to me. I’m not going to uphold Nazism, either.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I didn't say you should tell him "anti-gay rights is positive". I didn't say anything like that whatsoever. The "positive" is that you can teach him people live in a free society where they can make their own decisions about a number of issues, as they grow up.
The "positive" is that no one has to be something they aren't. The "positive" is that you are openminded to accept him whatever he chooses in any number of decisions. The "positive" is that even though his grandparents are JW, they love him and you do too, regardless of what he believes down the road.
Expose your son to age appropriate books or videos or other examples where there are gay parents or gay children, so he knows that you are open minded. When you talk about families make sure you mention that families come in all forms. He will learn from what he's exposed to, and what you treat as valid. That's what's positive.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think the misunderstanding is really coming down to a difference in beliefs:
Isabella states: "The "positive" is that you can teach him people live in a free society where they can make their own decisions about a number of issues, as they grow up." I fully agree with this and happen to be helping to raise my children this way.
Twilightprincess, cyberdad, Bravo5150, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm taking it that you disagree with the above belief and instead believe that even in a free society people shouldn't be allowed to express, practice or share certain beliefs such as being anti-gay marriage and if they do they should be met with criminal punishment.
I'm interpreting your beliefs on the matter this way because of comments such as those viewpoints are a "problem" (problems beg solutions) that need to be dealt with and certain beliefs should be "illegal".
Am I misunderstanding?
My thoughts were that criminal charges should only apply in the case where someone actively encourages others to kill certain people.
07 Jan 2020, 9:00 am
Half the Methodist church is saying they will not perform same-sex marriages. That's hardly the same thing as not allowing same-sex marriages. Which the church has zero power to disallow.
When a couple of people want to get married at a particular church, they have a meeting with the the pastor they want to hire to perform the ceremony.
There are instances in which the pastor will choose not to perform the marriage. Let's say the only reason they want to get married is for business purposes. A lot of pastors won't do that. It's probably not that much different from a legal standpoint than a lawyer refusing to be hired to represent someone.
07 Jan 2020, 10:51 am
I agree Ezra.
The lovely thing about democracy is that no gay person or couple is forced to attend a church which doesn't welcome or accept them in the first place.
The couple could go to another church of another denomination, or join the reformed Methodist church which will perform and bless their wedding.
There are many other social issues which can cause ideological division for a church community, or any secular community, beyond gay marriage. This thread could be about any number of those controversial issues. Likewise, groups of people who don't attend church at all, and are atheist or non-practising members of any faith, could have similar discussions in favour of / against gay marriage, immigration, birth control, divorce, crime, or any of the topics which are considered political. Those debates happen on WP all the time, whether or not the people posting espouse religious affiliation.
_________________
And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
07 Jan 2020, 11:06 am
The Methodist church I used to attend as a child was very fundamental in its definition of moral behavior, and still is. I visited the place over the summer. All but three people (the choir director, the pianist, and some guy sitting all by himself) seemed to be 70-ish or older.
I wonder what is going to happen to those churches that adhere to a strict code of morality versus those that have a more all-embracing culture. Are they going to age themselves out of existence?
_________________
07 Jan 2020, 11:19 am
Fnord wrote:
I wonder what is going to happen to those churches that adhere to a strict code of morality versus those that have a more all-embracing culture. Are they going to age themselves out of existence?
It’s hard to say, especially with the emergence (or reemergence) of new strict fundamentalist groups in recent decades that allow for fewer gray areas than standard churches and that create lots of members due to having many children. It’s an interesting phenomenon that I’d want to research if I was a sociologist.
I’m curious to see what will happen in the coming decades.
_________________
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. – Satan and TwilightPrincess
07 Jan 2020, 11:23 am
Twilightprincess wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I wonder what is going to happen to those churches that adhere to a strict code of morality versus those that have a more all-embracing culture. Are they going to age themselves out of existence?
It’s hard to say, especially with the emergence (or reemergence) of new strict fundamentalist groups in recent decades that allow for fewer gray areas than standard churches and that create lots of members due to having many children. It’s an interesting phenomenon that I’d want to research if I was a sociologist.
I’m curious to see what will happen in the coming decades.
I am surprised that you think it would be an interesting subject to research. I try to stay as far away possible from strict fundamentalists.
07 Jan 2020, 11:24 am
Fnord wrote:
I wonder what is going to happen to those churches that adhere to a strict code of morality versus those that have a more all-embracing culture. Are they going to age themselves out of existence?[/color]
Fnord,
It's entirely possible. I can't speak for other faiths, but the Christian church is continually evolving. Even the most conservative churches would seem liberal, if not scandalous, in comparison to generations past.
It's important to keep this topic in perspective and realise that many people don't attend church at all, and if they do, they don't give it a second thought past noon on Sundays. That's the reality. Unless one chooses to be devout or resides in a very religious community, the church has limited influence on their life. Laws are made by the government, and in democratic societies we are all free to vote, run for office, and lobby for change.
_________________
And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
07 Jan 2020, 11:35 am
I agree, IL.
About 15 years ago, I visited a church that had regular membership from infants to elderly. About 5 years ago, the church was mostly retirees. The younger people that left (surprisingly) were looking for a more fundamental, Bible-based environment than the church was offering at the time. Weird, huh?
_________________
07 Jan 2020, 11:36 am
Bravo5150 wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I wonder what is going to happen to those churches that adhere to a strict code of morality versus those that have a more all-embracing culture. Are they going to age themselves out of existence?
It’s hard to say, especially with the emergence (or reemergence) of new strict fundamentalist groups in recent decades that allow for fewer gray areas than standard churches and that create lots of members due to having many children. It’s an interesting phenomenon that I’d want to research if I was a sociologist.
I’m curious to see what will happen in the coming decades.
I am surprised that you think it would be an interesting subject to research. I try to stay as far away possible from strict fundamentalists.
I’m interested in sociology in general but especially religion because it can have such a profound impact on people’s lives and on their experience.
There are a lot of fundamentalists in the US, especially in the Midwest. Although in rural PA, fundamentalism is thriving. We have a large Mennonite and Amish community in my area as well as numerous smaller groups that are strict, too.
I think research helps in various ways.
If I could change laws in the US based on what I’ve observed, I’d make high school or a general equivalency program mandatory as well as teaching children about evolution.
Since Amish kids don’t graduate high school, it’s that much harder for them to leave that community as adults if they want to. These sorts of problems occur in other fundamentalist communities as well.
_________________
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. – Satan and TwilightPrincess
07 Jan 2020, 11:39 am
Fnord wrote:
I agree, IL.
About 15 years ago, I visited a church that had regular membership from infants to elderly. About 5 years ago, the church was mostly retirees. The younger people that left (surprisingly) were looking for a more fundamental, Bible-based environment than the church was offering at the time. Weird, huh?
About 15 years ago, I visited a church that had regular membership from infants to elderly. About 5 years ago, the church was mostly retirees. The younger people that left (surprisingly) were looking for a more fundamental, Bible-based environment than the church was offering at the time. Weird, huh?
It would be interesting to find out why this occurs in specific environments. JWs have a low retention rate and the majority of youths that leave become atheists.
But I’ve seen it work the opposite way in other groups.
_________________
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. – Satan and TwilightPrincess
07 Jan 2020, 11:43 am
Twilightprincess wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I agree, IL.
About 15 years ago, I visited a church that had regular membership from infants to elderly. About 5 years ago, the church was mostly retirees. The younger people that left (surprisingly) were looking for a more fundamental, Bible-based environment than the church was offering at the time. Weird, huh?
About 15 years ago, I visited a church that had regular membership from infants to elderly. About 5 years ago, the church was mostly retirees. The younger people that left (surprisingly) were looking for a more fundamental, Bible-based environment than the church was offering at the time. Weird, huh?
It would be interesting to find out why this occurs in specific environments. JWs have a low retention rate and the majority of youths that leave become atheists.
But I’ve seen it work the opposite way in other groups.
I have a total lack of appreciation for fundamentalists since I have had too many try to belittle me and insult me for having a health condition.
07 Jan 2020, 11:47 am
Fnord wrote:
I agree, IL.
About 15 years ago, I visited a church that had regular membership from infants to elderly. About 5 years ago, the church was mostly retirees. The younger people that left (surprisingly) were looking for a more fundamental, Bible-based environment than the church was offering at the time. Weird, huh?
About 15 years ago, I visited a church that had regular membership from infants to elderly. About 5 years ago, the church was mostly retirees. The younger people that left (surprisingly) were looking for a more fundamental, Bible-based environment than the church was offering at the time. Weird, huh?
Everyone is free to make their own choice. I know quite a few devout people in their 20's, but most of them are in favour of gay rights and individual liberties. I also have conservative missionaries in my family who use their own time and money to build churches and schools for impoverished populations in South America. They live peacefully, in charitable service to others.
It's been said before on this thread but I'll reiterate that there are good and bad people in every religion. There are good and bad people who are atheists. There are good and bad people of every gender.
The key is to keep this in perspective, to seek and celebrate the good, and to avoid generalisations which stereotype entire communities.
_________________
And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
07 Jan 2020, 11:54 am
Bravo5150 wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I agree, IL.
About 15 years ago, I visited a church that had regular membership from infants to elderly. About 5 years ago, the church was mostly retirees. The younger people that left (surprisingly) were looking for a more fundamental, Bible-based environment than the church was offering at the time. Weird, huh?
About 15 years ago, I visited a church that had regular membership from infants to elderly. About 5 years ago, the church was mostly retirees. The younger people that left (surprisingly) were looking for a more fundamental, Bible-based environment than the church was offering at the time. Weird, huh?
It would be interesting to find out why this occurs in specific environments. JWs have a low retention rate and the majority of youths that leave become atheists.
But I’ve seen it work the opposite way in other groups.
I have a total lack of appreciation for fundamentalists since I have had too many try to belittle me and insult me for having a health condition.
Why did they try to belittle you for having a health condition?
_________________
Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. – Satan and TwilightPrincess
07 Jan 2020, 11:58 am
Twilightprincess wrote:
Bravo5150 wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I agree, IL.
About 15 years ago, I visited a church that had regular membership from infants to elderly. About 5 years ago, the church was mostly retirees. The younger people that left (surprisingly) were looking for a more fundamental, Bible-based environment than the church was offering at the time. Weird, huh?
About 15 years ago, I visited a church that had regular membership from infants to elderly. About 5 years ago, the church was mostly retirees. The younger people that left (surprisingly) were looking for a more fundamental, Bible-based environment than the church was offering at the time. Weird, huh?
It would be interesting to find out why this occurs in specific environments. JWs have a low retention rate and the majority of youths that leave become atheists.
But I’ve seen it work the opposite way in other groups.
I have a total lack of appreciation for fundamentalists since I have had too many try to belittle me and insult me for having a health condition.
Why did they try to belittle you for having a health condition?
My mom dated this guy that was a real strict fundamentalist. He and most people in his inner circle wanted to constantly beat me over the head with the Bible if I acted a certain way for having adrenaline levels high enough to question if I have cancer, yet expected me to be understanding of their behavior for having normal adrenaline levels and acting angry or threatening.
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