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Dylann Roof's lawyers appeal death sentence citing autism

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vermontsavant
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04 Feb 2020, 2:11 pm

EzraS wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Not many people commit mass murder. One out of a zillion autistics, one out of a zillion sociopaths, one out of a zillion whatever.

In my opinion there is a single unique factor that all mass muderers share. I think someone who has this is likely to kill no matter what their history is and what other mental illness or disorder they have or don't have.

They are homicidal. They are "natural born killers".
I don't believe that autism is any type of leading cause of violence or that there is a corolation between autism and violence.But I do believe in a defense attorney's right to use any defense they seem fit or best.


I agree with that. And like I said I think it is a "give the poor guy a break because he is 'mentally disabled'" plea rather than a "his autism made him do it" insanity type plea.
Thats what there saying in this case,a repreave from a death sentence to life in prison not a not guilty by insanity verdict.He will still spend the next 60 years in a cage.


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04 Feb 2020, 2:17 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
What autistic symptoms , in a person of average intelligence or above, would lead to diminished ability to know right from wrong?

This site is called "WRONG PLANET", because autistic people are perceived to behave WRONG.


In trying to act clever ,and score points , you've actually failed to answer my question . There's a big difference between behaving in a way that is different from NTs , and that translating to having a diminished ability to know right from wrong .



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04 Feb 2020, 2:48 pm

firemonkey wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
What autistic symptoms , in a person of average intelligence or above, would lead to diminished ability to know right from wrong?

This site is called "WRONG PLANET", because autistic people are perceived to behave WRONG.


In trying to act clever ,and score points , you've actually failed to answer my question . There's a big difference between behaving in a way that is different from NTs , and that translating to having a diminished ability to know right from wrong .

This topic is about NT people judging you based on what they think is right and wrong.

If a NT jury/judge thinks you acted weird (wrong), then maybe that is enough for them to think you're guilty, or deserve harsher punishment.

If I ever get on trial, I am screaming, "AUTISM. AUTISM. AUTISM. I may seem weird, however, that's likely my ASD, please take that into consideration".


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04 Feb 2020, 2:52 pm

No ... the subject of this thread is "Dylann Roof's Lawyers Appeal Death Sentence Citing Autism", and not "Whatever TheRobotLives Dictates". The replies are our reactions to it and our opinions on the subject.


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04 Feb 2020, 2:58 pm

firemonkey wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
What autistic symptoms , in a person of average intelligence or above, would lead to diminished ability to know right from wrong?

This site is called "WRONG PLANET", because autistic people are perceived to behave WRONG.


In trying to act clever ,and score points , you've actually failed to answer my question . There's a big difference between behaving in a way that is different from NTs , and that translating to having a diminished ability to know right from wrong .


Regarding "diminished capacity" …. I cited this earlier ...

Rachel Loftin, a licensed clinical psychologist and nationally known expert in autism spectrum disorder's examination, suggesting Roof is autistic.
https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnew ... 54.pdf.pdf

Page 51 is where she maps his behavior to an ASD.

Some of her observations:
adequate intelligence, overestimation of his abilities.
Social isolation and "living" on his computer.
No friendships or intimate relationships
Facial affect is incongruent with context of speech
He uses overly specific verbal communication.
He takes the racist material he reads on the internet as literal.
He avoids eye gaze.
Severe preoccupation with racist material
He has a strong need for order

Fundamentally, she seems to blame the autistic traits of SOCIAL ISOLATION + LITERALNESS + "Special interest" (Preoccupation).

She says: "Without input from competing views, Dylan went on online, and read and believed misinformation about African Americans and developed a strong preoccupation with racism".


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Last edited by TheRobotLives on 04 Feb 2020, 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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04 Feb 2020, 3:23 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
.Autism is not insanty.

Likely, the underlying cause of autism is unknown.

So, do you really know that?

What if a type of autism is caused by a brain condition that causes both autistic behavior and psychotic behavior, OR autism is caused by a progressively worsening thyroid dysfunction that also causes worsening psychotic behavior?

I was given Risperdal (anti-psychotic) to treat autism.

This is common treatment for autistic people.

Risperdal as a Treatment for Autism
https://www.verywellhealth.com/risperda ... sm-2633208

If autism and psychosis have the same causation most autistic people would show strong psychotic tendencies or be psychotic.

I can not judge your case. Maybe Ok Boomer perspective here but powerful drugs are being proscribed way too often especially for kids. What your reminder that Risperdal is a common autism treatment tells me is that dispite my concern about the Autism Defense causing people to fear autistics I may be underestimating the problem.


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04 Feb 2020, 3:55 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
What autistic symptoms , in a person of average intelligence or above, would lead to diminished ability to know right from wrong?

This site is called "WRONG PLANET", because autistic people are perceived to behave WRONG.


In trying to act clever ,and score points , you've actually failed to answer my question . There's a big difference between behaving in a way that is different from NTs , and that translating to having a diminished ability to know right from wrong .


Regarding "diminished capacity" …. I cited this earlier ...

Rachel Loftin, a licensed clinical psychologist and nationally known expert in autism spectrum disorder's examination, suggesting Roof is autistic.
https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnew ... 54.pdf.pdf

Page 51 is where she maps his behavior to an ASD.

Some of her observations:
adequate intelligence, overestimation of his abilities.
Social isolation and "living" on his computer.
No friendships or intimate relationships
Facial affect is incongruent with context of speech
He uses overly specific verbal communication.
He takes the racist material he reads on the internet as literal.
He avoids eye gaze.
Severe preoccupation with racist material
He has a strong need for order

Fundamentally, she seems to blame the autistic traits of SOCIAL ISOLATION + LITERALNESS + "Special interest" (Preoccupation).

She says: "Without input from competing views, Dylan went on online, and read and believed misinformation about African Americans and developed a strong preoccupation with racism".



Thanks . I read this .

Quote:
Overestimation of ability: People who suffer with real disabilities can nevertheless present as highly capable in ways that mask their challenges. This is particularly true in people with high verbal ability and intact intelligence. Others hear their speech and are likely to over-estimate comprehension and ability. For Dylann, the gap between his apparently adequate intelligence and poor performance in real world settings is remarkable. He has minimal employment history (briefly working for a friend of his father’s), was not able to complete high school, dropped out of online school (later obtaining his GED), and was not living independently. Such a gap between potential
Roof52and actual achievement is common among individuals with ASD, who have difficulty applying their intelligence and skills in real world situations.


I can very much identify with that as a person with very high verbal ability , but who is not good when it comes to real life , practical situations . Having said that I can't see how that would result in diminished ability to know right from wrong .


Indeed much of what she says may explain difficulties to know right from wrong are things applicable ,in varying degrees , to, I would say , most of us .

However I'm aware of no one here that has homicidal tendencies .

Mention is made of psychosis . That could be a factor . However it's psychosis with substance abuse that is far more likely to result in violent behaviour , than psychosis on its own .



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04 Feb 2020, 5:01 pm

firemonkey wrote:


I can very much identify with that as a person with very high verbal ability , but who is not good when it comes to real life , practical situations . Having said that I can't see how that would result in diminished ability to know right from wrong .


Indeed much of what she says may explain difficulties to know right from wrong are things applicable ,in varying degrees , to, I would say , most of us .

However I'm aware of no one here that has homicidal tendencies .

Mention is made of psychosis . That could be a factor . However it's psychosis with substance abuse that is far more likely to result in violent behaviour , than psychosis on its own .


They don't have to show Roof didn't know right from wrong,they only have to show he has a valid mental disease or defect and he can not be put to death,he will get life in prison.

Showing he didn't know right from wrong would get him a not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect verdict and he would go to a hospital for a period of time.But death penalty appeal lawyers only concern themselves with saving there clients life,if they feel they have enough evidence for an acquital or a not guilty by insanity verdict possibility,they would tern the case over to different lawyers who deal with innocence and guilt.

These lawyers are only concerned with the comutation of the death sentence to life in prison.


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04 Feb 2020, 8:35 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
What autistic symptoms , in a person of average intelligence or above, would lead to diminished ability to know right from wrong?

This site is called "WRONG PLANET", because autistic people are perceived to behave WRONG.


No, it's named for the phrase coined by Temple Grandin, describing how people with autism see themselves as aliens having landed on a planet which makes no sense to them. In other words, it's our perception of the NT world.


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05 Feb 2020, 12:53 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
What autistic symptoms , in a person of average intelligence or above, would lead to diminished ability to know right from wrong?

This site is called "WRONG PLANET", because autistic people are perceived to behave WRONG.


No, it's named for the phrase coined by Temple Grandin, describing how people with autism see themselves as aliens having landed on a planet which makes no sense to them. In other words, it's our perception of the NT world.

The other way makes more sense.

That way makes autistic people judgmental and seeking conformity.


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05 Feb 2020, 1:22 am

firemonkey wrote:
What autistic symptoms , in a person of average intelligence or above, would lead to diminished ability to know right from wrong?


Have a read of this paper which reviews the risk that a high functioning autistic person (so one prerequisite is normal intelligence as defined by IQ) impacts on their risk of formulating criminal intent.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4392381/
Analysis yielded three major themes on how an hfASD diagnosis affects an offender’s ability to regulate actions and criminal behaviour. Interviewed judges reported beliefs that hfASD offenders view the world in a different way and that much of their behaviour is not under their direct control. Judges reported these perceptions likely affect how they criminally process and make legal decisions regarding offenders with hfASDs.



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05 Feb 2020, 2:04 am

Many on the spectrum will have those characteristics , but not all will commit a criminal act. That suggests to me there is something on top of those characteristics that leads to a criminal act being committed .



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05 Feb 2020, 2:56 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
What autistic symptoms , in a person of average intelligence or above, would lead to diminished ability to know right from wrong?

This site is called "WRONG PLANET", because autistic people are perceived to behave WRONG.


No, it's named for the phrase coined by Temple Grandin, describing how people with autism see themselves as aliens having landed on a planet which makes no sense to them. In other words, it's our perception of the NT world.

The other way makes more sense.

That way makes autistic people judgmental and seeking conformity.


Fitting in might be distasteful, but in order to function if not survive in the NT world, it helps to learn their alien ways.


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05 Feb 2020, 3:13 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
firemonkey wrote:
What autistic symptoms , in a person of average intelligence or above, would lead to diminished ability to know right from wrong?

This site is called "WRONG PLANET", because autistic people are perceived to behave WRONG.


No, it's named for the phrase coined by Temple Grandin, describing how people with autism see themselves as aliens having landed on a planet which makes no sense to them. In other words, it's our perception of the NT world.

The other way makes more sense.

That way makes autistic people judgmental and seeking conformity.


Fitting in might be distasteful, but in order to function if not survive in the NT world, it helps to learn their alien ways.


How dare you insinuate I'm alien :lol:



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05 Feb 2020, 3:14 am

Psychosis in autism

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5376719/



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05 Feb 2020, 3:16 am

firemonkey wrote:
Many on the spectrum will have those characteristics , but not all will commit a criminal act. That suggests to me there is something on top of those characteristics that leads to a criminal act being committed .


Yes that's right. But the article suggests judges are swayed by the argument that autism is a contributing factor for criminal intent. Almost all judges have no experience with mental health so rely on advice from a court appointed forensic psychologist.

Many of these psychologists are not experts on autism (its not their area of specialisation) so tend to "paint with a broad brush" when it comes to a single person charged with a crime who happens to have autistic traits.