Brexit is going to make everything worse(unless you're rich)

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vermontsavant
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31 Jan 2020, 9:20 am

Well,for better or for worse it's finally going to happen,it was a voter mandate and Johnson got it done,whatever you want to say about him.I think the UK and the EU will adjust to this and things will be ok eventually.


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BenderRodriguez
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31 Jan 2020, 9:23 am

Anecdotal: in my field, nobody can hire strictly locally as we rely on heavily specialised people, so even the Americans recruit internationally. Most people circulate a lot between companies to build a serious CV and advance their career and all parties benefit from it.

I work on a regular basis with recruiters and head-hunters for my work and they've been whining incessantly for a while now that it's impossible to attract any valuable European candidates anymore... even for a two-year contract. Many major players from overseas opened offices in the UK to get access to the European market and some already announced their intention to leave - probably for Germany.

Leaving aside whatever commercial agreements are going to get agreed on, some huge American or international business will be forced to leave and they and their employees were paying taxes in the UK.


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31 Jan 2020, 9:51 am

vermontsavant wrote:
Well,for better or for worse it's finally going to happen,it was a voter mandate and Johnson got it done,whatever you want to say about him.I think the UK and the EU will adjust to this and things will be ok eventually.



Britain was independent of the EU for most of it's existence. Just from the outside it would look like the NHS would have done better if the EU was contributing to it's upkeep. Does anyone know if the EU paid the member countries for the increased burden of more people using its services? If they didn't, they should have. That could have allowed the NHS to employ more healthcare providers, expand hospitals, etc. I don't know, but from the complaints I've read it sounds like everything stayed the same, only the demand grew bigger.

I know that NHS is only a portion of the picture,


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31 Jan 2020, 10:18 am

Persephone29 wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
Well,for better or for worse it's finally going to happen,it was a voter mandate and Johnson got it done,whatever you want to say about him.I think the UK and the EU will adjust to this and things will be ok eventually.



Britain was independent of the EU for most of it's existence. Just from the outside it would look like the NHS would have done better if the EU was contributing to it's upkeep. Does anyone know if the EU paid the member countries for the increased burden of more people using its services? If they didn't, they should have. That could have allowed the NHS to employ more healthcare providers, expand hospitals, etc. I don't know, but from the complaints I've read it sounds like everything stayed the same, only the demand grew bigger.

I know that NHS is only a portion of the picture,


The EU has had no say or jurisdiction over the NHS, all decisions as to its management and funding remained in Westminster.
There was massive expansion and upgrading of the NHS between 2001 and 2007.
Many EU migrants have worked in the NHS: how we are to staff it in the short term if/when they return to their countries of birth is a concern as yet unanswered.
The standard and availability of NHS services has been much reduced over the past decade, however this probably has more to do with the decision to incorporate old-age care into the NHS when it had previously been a separate department, but without transferring any of the budget. How much of a financial hit this was is debated and hard to get an exact handle on, but somewhere between 18 and 25 percent is usually the range argued over.
The problems we currently have with children sleeping on coats in hospital corridors, people dying whilst waiting for treatment etc all happened before in the mid ‘90s under the last Tory government: make of that what you will.
And last point first: the formation of the UK was simultaneous with colonial expansion and imperialism, the pre-EU Britain was a vast empire, not a small nation... there is no precedent for the UK being an independent nation state... so we’ll have to work out what that is as we do it.
Or fail to do so.



Persephone29
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31 Jan 2020, 10:58 am

Karamazov wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
Well,for better or for worse it's finally going to happen,it was a voter mandate and Johnson got it done,whatever you want to say about him.I think the UK and the EU will adjust to this and things will be ok eventually.



Britain was independent of the EU for most of it's existence. Just from the outside it would look like the NHS would have done better if the EU was contributing to it's upkeep. Does anyone know if the EU paid the member countries for the increased burden of more people using its services? If they didn't, they should have. That could have allowed the NHS to employ more healthcare providers, expand hospitals, etc. I don't know, but from the complaints I've read it sounds like everything stayed the same, only the demand grew bigger.

I know that NHS is only a portion of the picture,


The EU has had no say or jurisdiction over the NHS, all decisions as to its management and funding remained in Westminster.
There was massive expansion and upgrading of the NHS between 2001 and 2007.
Many EU migrants have worked in the NHS: how we are to staff it in the short term if/when they return to their countries of birth is a concern as yet unanswered.
The standard and availability of NHS services has been much reduced over the past decade, however this probably has more to do with the decision to incorporate old-age care into the NHS when it had previously been a separate department, but without transferring any of the budget. How much of a financial hit this was is debated and hard to get an exact handle on, but somewhere between 18 and 25 percent is usually the range argued over.
The problems we currently have with children sleeping on coats in hospital corridors, people dying whilst waiting for treatment etc all happened before in the mid ‘90s under the last Tory government: make of that what you will.
And last point first: the formation of the UK was simultaneous with colonial expansion and imperialism, the pre-EU Britain was a vast empire, not a small nation... there is no precedent for the UK being an independent nation state... so we’ll have to work out what that is as we do it.
Or fail to do so.



Thanks, I'll think about all that.


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Karamazov
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31 Jan 2020, 11:22 am

Persephone29 wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
Well,for better or for worse it's finally going to happen,it was a voter mandate and Johnson got it done,whatever you want to say about him.I think the UK and the EU will adjust to this and things will be ok eventually.



Britain was independent of the EU for most of it's existence. Just from the outside it would look like the NHS would have done better if the EU was contributing to it's upkeep. Does anyone know if the EU paid the member countries for the increased burden of more people using its services? If they didn't, they should have. That could have allowed the NHS to employ more healthcare providers, expand hospitals, etc. I don't know, but from the complaints I've read it sounds like everything stayed the same, only the demand grew bigger.

I know that NHS is only a portion of the picture,


The EU has had no say or jurisdiction over the NHS, all decisions as to its management and funding remained in Westminster.
There was massive expansion and upgrading of the NHS between 2001 and 2007.
Many EU migrants have worked in the NHS: how we are to staff it in the short term if/when they return to their countries of birth is a concern as yet unanswered.
The standard and availability of NHS services has been much reduced over the past decade, however this probably has more to do with the decision to incorporate old-age care into the NHS when it had previously been a separate department, but without transferring any of the budget. How much of a financial hit this was is debated and hard to get an exact handle on, but somewhere between 18 and 25 percent is usually the range argued over.
The problems we currently have with children sleeping on coats in hospital corridors, people dying whilst waiting for treatment etc all happened before in the mid ‘90s under the last Tory government: make of that what you will.
And last point first: the formation of the UK was simultaneous with colonial expansion and imperialism, the pre-EU Britain was a vast empire, not a small nation... there is no precedent for the UK being an independent nation state... so we’ll have to work out what that is as we do it.
Or fail to do so.



Thanks, I'll think about all that.


Oh, cool: I was worried I might have come across rather hard and hectoring... apologies if that was the case :wink:



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31 Jan 2020, 11:30 am

Brexit ought to make it easier to low skilled workers to find jobs locally.

But, if you need benefits you may have been better off with a bigger work force that can support more people.
There are some cultures that don't trust the government and work within family units, so benefits aren't needed.



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31 Jan 2020, 12:17 pm

JohnInWales wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Weird how all the banks and bankers and some of the biggest corporations wanted us to stay in. Maybe they just didn't want to get any richer :roll:

Not really. I think that the people who actually trade with other countries on a major scale would want to be an integrated part of one of the biggest trading blocs on the planet. Many international companies set up in Britain specifically because of our access to the EU.

I see the problem as being more to do the speculators, extremely rich individuals, and those with a particular ideology. Of course it suits some big businesses as well, but probably more those who are looking to exploit short term opportunities, than those who operate over long timescales and rely on long term stability. I think reading up on the people listed on "The Bad Boys of Brexit" shows the type of people who were really pushing for Brexit. There's also a quote, that I can't verify, from Rupert Murdoch, that goes something like "when I walk into Downing Street, the British government do what I want, but when I go to Brussels they ignore me". All I see with people pushing Brexit is personal power and greed, with no concern or empathy for the effect it has on the vast majority of people.
https://badboysofbrexit.com/


I agree that there are some dodgy characters who want us out of the EU, just as there are more that want us in it.

Yes our politicians and politics in general is below the sewer. But there's always hope that we can remove them. The vermin in Brussels that we don't elect cannot be removed.

If it was just about trade that would be a good argument. But the EU is a monster that intends to be an empire with a defense union that means our army and foreign policy will be controlled from Brussels. So no thanks.


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31 Jan 2020, 12:27 pm

Joe90 wrote:
A lot of poor/working class people voted leave (including me), because they think that it will get all the foreigners out and leave plenty of room for jobs, housing, education and the NHS...


This was a clever ruse from the newspapers. One I absolutely condemned for dumbing down and oversimplifying such a complicated political discussion.

The only discussions I saw about "kicking out the foreigners" was to do with border control, and the end of the freedom of movement, with alleged plans to mimic Australia's points-based immigration system.

Opening trade and outsourcing workers internationally lies in uncertainty as to whether there will be short-term pain and long-term gain, or vice versa. A risky gamble that'll either pay off or backfire spectacularly depending on if we continue to bumble into these discussions like a Hugh Grant character. :roll:


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21 Feb 2020, 3:22 pm

It looks like Brexit is having one immediate effect - not on Great Britain but on Europe.

EU gripped by budget chaos after Brexit: Austria, Denmark, the Netherlands and Sweden REFUSE to pay for one trillion euro plan to help poor regions, fight climate change and plug budget black hole left by Britain's departure

EU leaders were facing budget chaos today at a bruising first summit since Brexit as four wealthy nations refused to fill the gap left by Britain's departure.

The 27 leaders reached a stalemate after arguing into the early hours in Brussels, with talks on the trillion-euro budget resuming for a second day today and this afternoon there was still deadlock.

The UK's departure has left the bloc with a €75billion (£63billion) hole in its finances over seven years and the budget battle has exposed bitter divisions between EU members.

Germany wants to spend more on climate change while France is seeking more money for a joint defence, with poorer nations determined to keep their generous EU payouts.

But the so-called 'frugal four' of Austria, the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden are unwilling to pay more to plug the gap.


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21 Feb 2020, 5:53 pm

Joe90 wrote:
It's starting to frighten me. I voted out, but now I'm beginning to think it is not going to make things better, especially with Tories running the country.
Now that the UK is going to be out of the EU, the government will do what they want, which could mean privatising everything including our much needed NHS. There's one thing everyone should know about conservatives, and that's that they only care about the rich, or they think that everybody's as rich as them. So they are bound to make such huge decisions that's going to have a negative effect on the working class.
I know Trump is going to f**k up our NHS, which I don't think he has any business to. I wish the f*****g c**t would do the whole world a favour and f*****g drop dead.

And I heard they're kicking out all the Polish and other EU foreigners and making them go back to where they came from. That means we are going to lose a lot of good workers. I'm not saying the British are not good workers, but the foreigners do seem more keen to do the grotty low-paid jobs for as many hours a week as they can, while to us Brits it's viewed as a dead end job and a "waste of life" working for minimum wage for overwhelming slog.

Am I wrong?


You are very binary.



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21 Feb 2020, 6:14 pm

From the late 1940s, Britain incrementally ceased to have a British Empire to exploit. The decision to stop exploitation was made out of necessity, not goodwill toward the countries the British had exploited for all of the 20th century and before, and it was Franklin Roosevelt who made the withdrawal of Britain after the war from the countries it was appropriating resources from a condition for the USA agreeing to enter WW2 as an ally.

Britain grew fat and rich in those decades and centuries of exploitation, and declined after the regained independence of "empire" countries which began in the late 1940s. Eventually Britain saw no other viable option but to join the EEU. Now it has left. It assumed that other countries would be lining up for trade deals. They aren't. Just this week, Canada said "we're not interested". New Zealand's main markets are in Asia, which it established after Britain left it high and dry in the early 1970s. Australia has its own problems to deal with.

Bit of history to consider...



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25 Feb 2020, 11:07 am

Considering Sweden has already taken in a hugely disproportionate share of migrants (and the costs associated with that), plus that we already contribute enormous sums of money to the EU, I for one am glad that Löfvén dug up a spine somewhere and refused to pay a sudden 44% increase in our already oversized contributions. I don't know where he found the spine in question, but I'm hoping he won't have to return it anytime soon.


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26 Feb 2020, 6:14 pm

Shabrem wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
It's starting to frighten me. I voted out, but now I'm beginning to think it is not going to make things better, especially with Tories running the country.
Now that the UK is going to be out of the EU, the government will do what they want, which could mean privatising everything including our much needed NHS. There's one thing everyone should know about conservatives, and that's that they only care about the rich, or they think that everybody's as rich as them. So they are bound to make such huge decisions that's going to have a negative effect on the working class.
I know Trump is going to f**k up our NHS, which I don't think he has any business to. I wish the f*****g c**t would do the whole world a favour and f*****g drop dead.

And I heard they're kicking out all the Polish and other EU foreigners and making them go back to where they came from. That means we are going to lose a lot of good workers. I'm not saying the British are not good workers, but the foreigners do seem more keen to do the grotty low-paid jobs for as many hours a week as they can, while to us Brits it's viewed as a dead end job and a "waste of life" working for minimum wage for overwhelming slog.

Am I wrong?


You are very binary.


What does binary mean?

And I'm not worrying about Brexit so much now. I only worry about what's going on in the media at the moment, and right now it's all about the coronavirus, so that gives us a little break from all the Brexit stuff. Gotta worry about something, eh?


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27 Feb 2020, 4:12 am

Farmers at the annual conference booing and shouting abuse at the new environment secretary after he refused to reassure them over food standards post brexit and they have been made aware of funding cuts under the new subsidy regime. even though Boris Johnson said in 2016 that if they vote for brexit they would not see any funding cuts, with claims of cuts labelled as 'project fear'



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27 Feb 2020, 5:04 am

Governemt screws everything up and lies about everything. They spit in voter's faces.


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