Did C-19 virus escape from Wuhan lab?

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goldfish21
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16 Apr 2020, 11:40 am

According to this article the US thinks it may have:

https://trib.al/hICKHvH

According to this documentary, too:



Some differing info between them. Mainly the article doesn’t think it’s an engineered virus but the documentary seems to think it’s probable. I don’t know enough about biology to confirm or deny based on evidence presented. But both say the wet market was a scapegoat/coverup and this s**t was accidentally leaked from the Wuhan Institute of Virology lab & then China did its damnedest to pretend it didn’t.


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EzraS
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16 Apr 2020, 11:44 am

I heard on the news this morning that possibility is being actively investigated by intelligence agencies. So it's not just a conspiracy theory. They said one expert on the subject said the virus is too complex to have been engineered.



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16 Apr 2020, 11:55 am

Unlikely.
It is actively investigated and all investigations I could reach point to the answer: it is a natural phenomenon.
Its characteristics - highly contagious, in most cases quite mild, relatively rarely mortal - matches a naturally occuring disease much better than what you would expect of a bioweapon.


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Magna
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16 Apr 2020, 11:57 am

If the virus was created in a lab as a bioweapon it would be undeniably egregious and a crime against humanity perpetrated by the Chinese government.

Some seem to think that if the virus is "zoogenic" then China isn't to blame and going even further, shame on the world for blaming China.

I believe it's immaterial as to the actual origin of the virus at this point because in either case, China withheld valuable and time sensitive information about the virus, blocked travel within its own borders to protect itself but I would argue intentionally promoted the international travel of thousands and thousands of its citizens, some of whom were carriers, to the rest of the world. This inaction and action respectively resulted in many more infections and deaths than would have otherwise resulted. Negligent. Accountability required. I regard the promotion of international travel of Chinese citizens to be bio-warfare.


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domineekee
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Velorum
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16 Apr 2020, 11:58 am

I dont know what to make of all this. I have read reports on the internet from various universities etc stating that they are certain that its a naturally occurring phenomenon. I'm not a scientist so what do I know? - I have no way of balancing the varying assertions against each other.

It would certainly be an interesting diplomatic situation if it were proven that this was man made.


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goldfish21
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16 Apr 2020, 12:03 pm

EzraS wrote:
I heard on the news this morning that possibility is being actively investigated by intelligence agencies. So it's not just a conspiracy theory. They said one expert on the subject said the virus is too complex to have been engineered.


Umm, just because intelligence agencies are investigating it doesn’t mean it isn’t just a conspiracy theory.

1) They would have to investigate such theories to determine if they were credible or not in the first place.

2) There’s been plenty of headline news the past couple years about trump asking intelligence agencies to investigate conspiracy theories he heard on Fox News or wherever,

I’m not saying it’s a conspiracy theory. Only that just because intelligence agencies are investigating it doesn’t mean it isn’t one.


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domineekee
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16 Apr 2020, 12:08 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
According to this article the US thinks it may have:

https://trib.al/hICKHvH

I didn't take you for a Daily Mail reader Goldfish :lol:



goldfish21
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16 Apr 2020, 12:16 pm

domineekee wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
According to this article the US thinks it may have:

https://trib.al/hICKHvH

I didn't take you for a Daily Mail reader Goldfish :lol:


I’m not. Someone shared it on Facecrack and I noticed it during my regular meme hunting scroll.


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EzraS
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16 Apr 2020, 12:17 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
I heard on the news this morning that possibility is being actively investigated by intelligence agencies. So it's not just a conspiracy theory. They said one expert on the subject said the virus is too complex to have been engineered.


Umm, just because intelligence agencies are investigating it doesn’t mean it isn’t just a conspiracy theory.

1) They would have to investigate such theories to determine if they were credible or not in the first place.

2) There’s been plenty of headline news the past couple years about trump asking intelligence agencies to investigate conspiracy theories he heard on Fox News or wherever,

I’m not saying it’s a conspiracy theory. Only that just because intelligence agencies are investigating it doesn’t mean it isn’t one.


I said it's not just as in only a pure conspiracy theory. I don't think you bother to take enough time to absorb what I say before rattling off a rebuttal.



goldfish21
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16 Apr 2020, 12:45 pm

EzraS wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
I heard on the news this morning that possibility is being actively investigated by intelligence agencies. So it's not just a conspiracy theory. They said one expert on the subject said the virus is too complex to have been engineered.


Umm, just because intelligence agencies are investigating it doesn’t mean it isn’t just a conspiracy theory.

1) They would have to investigate such theories to determine if they were credible or not in the first place.

2) There’s been plenty of headline news the past couple years about trump asking intelligence agencies to investigate conspiracy theories he heard on Fox News or wherever,

I’m not saying it’s a conspiracy theory. Only that just because intelligence agencies are investigating it doesn’t mean it isn’t one.


I said it's not just as in only a pure conspiracy theory. I don't think you bother to take enough time to absorb what I say before rattling off a rebuttal.


Right back at ya. Did you read what I wrote before rattling off a rebuttal?

Sometimes what they investigate turns out to be exactly that, just conspiracy theory. Or it’s already known to be a conspiracy theory but trump insists it must be investigated.


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domineekee
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16 Apr 2020, 12:58 pm

https://thebulletin.org/2020/03/experts-know-the-new-coronavirus-is-not-a-bioweapon-they-disagree-on-whether-it-could-have-leaked-from-a-research-lab/

lab safety has been a problem in China. “A safety breach at a Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention lab is believed to have caused four suspected SARS cases, including one death, in Beijing in 2004. A similar accident caused 65 lab workers of Lanzhou Veterinary Research Institute to be infected with brucellosis in December 2019,” Huang wrote. “In January 2020, a renowned Chinese scientist, Li Ning, was sentenced to 12 years in prison for selling experimental animals to local markets.

And China is hardly the only place to experience such accidents. A USA Today investigation in 2016, for instance, revealed an incident involving cascading equipment failures in a decontamination chamber as US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention researchers tried to leave a biosafety level 4 lab that likely stored samples of the viruses causing Ebola and smallpox. In 2014, the agency revealed that staff had accidently sent live anthrax between laboratories, exposing 84 workers. In an investigation, officials found other mishaps that had occurred in the preceding decade.

Whether a lab accident could have led to the COVID-19 outbreak remains unclear, but making that determination is worthwhile, Ebright says: “Understanding the origin of the outbreak is a crucial step to reduce the risk of future outbreaks.”



goldfish21
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16 Apr 2020, 1:18 pm

Mistakes happen. Accidents happen. I agree that understanding the true origin will help in improving protocols to prevent a future mistake or accident.

But also, like wtf are these people studying sometimes? Are they conducting stupid experiments and taking stupid risks? Like are they dealing with things that could only possibly have Very Bad outcomes should anything ever go wrong? ..if so, then why the F are they tempting fate? How much of this research is necessary and of value and how much of it should never have been explored in the first place? Like what did they expect to happen if they just keep poking Pandora’s Box? Obviously people are not infallible and eventually a mistake or accident is going to happen soooo.. maybe now they’ll reconsider what stuff they’re even playing with in the future?


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16 Apr 2020, 1:32 pm

Let's be clear on this: "The U.S." does not think CoViD-19 is a Chinese plot; only some Americans do, and most of those seem to be Trumpsters and members of the Trump administration.


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16 Apr 2020, 2:09 pm

It was on the news here yesterday. Apparently the theory is that the SARS-Cov-2 virus came from a lab near or in Wuhan where they study corona viruses, and was likely accidentally released.

Magna wrote:
Some seem to think that if the virus is "zoogenic" then China isn't to blame and going even further, shame on the world for blaming China.

No, any way you look at it, China is to blame for the rise of SARS-Cov-2 as we know it.

The zoonosis theory is that SARS-Cov-2 came from bats and mutated to infect people via another animal, maybe the pangolin.

The pangolins are in turn raised in captivity or taken from the wild (despite being endangered) because their scales are used in "traditional Chinese medicine", and the meat is also seen as a delicacy.

After the 2002 SARS world tour, studies were conducted using samples of wild animals sold as food in the local market in Guangdong, China, showing that the SARS corona virus could be isolated from masked palm civets. The preliminary conclusion was the SARS virus crossed the barrier from Asian palm civet to humans, but genetic analysis has since convinced most experts that bats are the natural hosts. Civets (as well as a few other animals) were most likely just transient accidental hosts. in 2005, two studies identified a number of SARS-like corona viruses in Chinese bats.

After a temporary ban during the SARS outbreak, the wet markets and wildlife trade went back to business as usual, allowing it to happen again. So China is indeed to blame.


Magna wrote:
China withheld valuable and time sensitive information about the virus, blocked travel within its own borders to protect itself but I would argue intentionally promoted the international travel of thousands and thousands of its citizens, some of whom were carriers, to the rest of the world. This inaction and action respectively resulted in many more infections and deaths than would have otherwise resulted. Negligent. Accountability required. I regard the promotion of international travel of Chinese citizens to be bio-warfare.

No argument there. It's at best gross negligence.


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But also, like wtf are these people studying sometimes? Are they conducting stupid experiments and taking stupid risks? Like are they dealing with things that could only possibly have Very Bad outcomes should anything ever go wrong? ..if so, then why the F are they tempting fate? How much of this research is necessary and of value and how much of it should never have been explored in the first place? Like what did they expect to happen if they just keep poking Pandora’s Box? Obviously people are not infallible and eventually a mistake or accident is going to happen soooo.. maybe now they’ll reconsider what stuff they’re even playing with in the future?

I would think some of it might be as much about prestige and one-upping other parts of the world.

Of course, they aren't the only ones playing at that dangerous game either.


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goldfish21
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16 Apr 2020, 2:23 pm

^There’s a lot of that been going around in then scientific community for ages.. like Einstein reportedly regretting the development of nuclear weapons. Oops! What have I done?

And of course people won’t learn and will continue to play God with all sorts of science. Gene splicing, biohackers, engineered babies, viruses, weapons.. *shrug* I guess it’s all God’s fault for making man in his image, eh? What’d he expect that we wouldn’t play God? :roll:


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