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Fnord
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24 Apr 2020, 10:13 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
None of those other items had undergone the rigorous processes of the Scientific Method.
It doesn't take anything "rigorous" to debunk those other items; the Scientific Method just makes it simpler.


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Karamazov
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24 Apr 2020, 10:17 am

Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
The Scientific Method leaves lots of room for the debunking of hypotheses.
... and conspiracy theories ... and fake news ... and prejudices ... and superstitions ... and Trump-tweets ...

Indeed one could say that scientific method is the only protection we have from our, very human, tendency to intellectually commit to an endless panoply of self-aggrandising nonsense.



IsabellaLinton
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24 Apr 2020, 10:19 am

I don't mind if people are staunch believers or staunch disbelievers in science vs the unexplained. Everyone has their right to an opinion and their own personal experience.

I only take issue when people start insulting the other side, or making harsh generalisations against entire groups of people for their point-of-view. Calling people "deluded", "crazy", "irrational", or other slews of insults derails the conversation for me. That's where I draw the line and identify bigots.

Nothing toward you Fnord.


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Fnord
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24 Apr 2020, 10:26 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I don't mind if people are staunch believers or staunch disbelievers in science vs the unexplained. Everyone has their right to an opinion and their own personal experience.  I only take issue when people start insulting the other side, or making harsh generalisations against entire groups of people for their point-of-view. Calling people "deluded", "crazy", "irrational", or other slews of insults derails the conversation for me. That's where I draw the line and identify bigots.  Nothing toward you Fnord.
Nothing taken.  I use the term "Irrational", not in a pejorative sense, but in the sense that people are not applying rational thought processes (i.e., Critical Thinking, the Scientific Method, et cetera) to what they hear and see on the news, on the Internet, and from political and religious leaders.


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Whale_Tuune
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24 Apr 2020, 11:28 am

Fnord wrote:
Whale_Tuune wrote:
Most people hold on to some irrational beliefs.  Occam's razor also doesn't deal with reality.  It's an assumption that helps people conduct experiments and test things.  It's not meant to tell you what to believe outside of the realm of testable hypotheses.
Ahh ... but this "realm of testable hypotheses" you refer to actually IS reality!
Douglas Adams wrote:
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?



You really believe that everything that is "real" can be tested and understood by humankind (when virtually know other animal in existence is capable of understanding and testing all of reality)?


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aghogday
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24 Apr 2020, 1:17 pm

Smiles; You've indicated in the Past here as i have a
VERY GOOD MEMORY FOR TEXT; YES MiLLioNs of Words;
That You Believe in God; So 'Mr. Rationality', What's Your Proof.

i for one have Reams of Evidence that is Real And True; Photos Don't Lie; Neither Do Videos when Real.

Let's See Yours or Not; Rhetorical Question; i already Know Your Answer; None; most likely.

Do You want to Know what's Not Rational; Another Rhetorical Question of Course;

Just A Challenge Here; God i wish someone else could devise one for me; except me;

Acting Like You are Now; when the Record Clearly Speaks the other Story with no doubt.

i am not only Rational, Either;
i admit, i am not only Half a Mind or less.

You May Be Different; Obviously, Unless You Will Prove God Exists as Evidence; Sure Like me;
The Way i do at Close to Age 60; Writing an 8 MiLLioN Word Longest Epic Long Form Poem 'Bible';
Leg Pressing 1340 Pounds, Close to 60 at 90 Degrees, 12 Reps, Very Slowly for 100 Seconds on YouTube For Real;
It's Worth Noting that Back Close to the Year 2000; Dan Kendra Held the FSU Collegiate Record for One Full Rep
at 1335 Pounds; And Burst A Blood Vessel in His Eye Doing so; For Me Now, anyway; Additionally Along with
Writing the Epic Longest Long Form Poem Bible;

13,077 Miles of Public Dancing in the Same 80 Months; All After Being Shut-in For 66 Months With A Synergy
of 19 Life Threatening Medical Disorders; With Over 2,000 Beautiful Close to 4 Decades Younger Women in Dancing
Selfies included in the Bible Poem As the Record Still Breathes; while the Metro Audience Named me Legend; as documented in a Viral Video the Audience took; with over 88,000 Views And 1300 or so Comments That Attest to Just that; and yes More Like, "He is Everywhere, if You haven't seen him you don't get out"; True, ironic to hear from the General Public after 66 Months Shut-in; Before i became a named Dance Hero/Metro Folk Legend; The Professionals doing their Best to Keep me Alive; Said it was a Real Human Miracle; so Legend, is just icing on the Cake of Living Life WITH Smiles from the Surrounding Dance Audience.

Do You even think John 14:12 is possible;
Or Do You only Believe in an Old Testament Mind Set;
With No New Testament to Speak And Prove God exists even more as/in You.

Smiles, my Friend;

If You Believe;

If You Believe;

If You Have REAL FAITH AND BELIEF YES LOVE Breathing
ALL As GOD AS ParT OF THE WHOLE THAT is all that is.

Faith, is Not Just an Empty
Shell; Nor is Belief; They are
Both Powerful Emotions that it
Doesn't Seem You have Felt or Utilized;
For if you Did; chances are you would have achieved more than me after the age of 53 for no pay at all, too.

i for one, didn't speak until age 4; that didn't stop me from getting 3 College degrees.
i for one, was picked last in Team Sports; didn't stop me from becoming Athletic Director at a Military Installation
or again as above here below; Elite Marines ~4 Decades my Junior not able to Budge what i leg press at close to 60
before the Military Gym Corona Closed; but again; got the YouTube Proof for those Who do not Believe that Faith
And Belief Will just about Move a Car too; With Love that Metaphorically at Least Becomes a Mountain instead of just
Empty
Shells
of Faith,
Belief, God
And Love As Well.

Second Part of Comment Below:


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aghogday
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24 Apr 2020, 1:18 pm

Second Part of Comment:

Bottom Lines; Show me What
This Love; This God; This Jesus Whatever
Freedom Metaphor You Care to Create for Essence
of Love, Faith, As Belief has Achieved in Your Life Now.

As i remember, You Are A Veteran of Vietnam;
Homeless Before; and a Missionary too; 'Jesus'
by the Modern Story at Least never accomplished War; so yes, you did more.

The Homeless of Love Will Never Actually see;

I have no idea about that with you; but show me the 'money', if you can and will.

You Believe In God as the Record Shows here; i realize it's Personal; But if God is Real Show Us How for You?

Never Mind me; if you do; You are a Fascinating Human like everyone else; always All A Muse for Just more Poetry
from 'God';
yes,
you
too
and me;
Them and We; Us, too.

Other than That/This Modern Neuroscience Shows Now that Humans Basically Hallucinate Creating
Their Reality As They Go Based on Past Experiences as 'most any experiment With 'LSD' and the Such shows too.

Some Folks Create Colors of Reality Never Seen Before; But Again; Those are New Testament kinda folks
not folks stuck
in just
shells
of words
with little to no
Essence of 'God' Breathing within.

Once again; challenge; Show me
What God's Breath in You Achieves that no one else has done before.

It Doesn't matter Where you Start; all that Matters is what exists for Real Eternally Now As Quantum Physics
Suggests too; Possibly a Simulation With No control or One Smart Enough for Folks Who actually Now Develop
A Significant Amount of Relative Free Will; Enough to make Dreams; Not imaginable before, Actually come true.

If You Were a Genie;
What 3 Magic Wishes
Would come for You.

Smiles, my FRiEnD
8 MiLLioN Words isn't Enough to
Measure my Effective Wishes Come True.

All i wanted was to Feel a Smile again;
Love, Faith And Belief too; Yes God All that is Real;

Now a Smile for the Record Books and just another
Challenge for someone else to have more Faith and Belief
of Love
Yes
God
That
Who
Actually Breathes With Do.
If you have control enough over
Your Emotions and or enough Strength
Not to Read this; if You Love to Ignore New
Testaments; don't take offense at me please
for believing you will do more too; if You Will;
so far
beyond
Rationality
That Reason
Will Seem Like Kindergarten before You Grow up as Reborn;
Butterflies and Cocoons; Humans, two kinds in deed; and so much more.
People ARE Irrational; Now Consider this; Rationality As The Real
Delusion And Flowers Blooming over 'THere'.

Smiles, my Friend; (BTW; 'i call
Everyone Friend; don't take it too Personal)
my Intuition Feels, You don't Even Realize WHere 'A Real Twilight Zone' is.

Been to that place; done it; ain't going back to a Small Wilting Flower World Like that.


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Fnord
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24 Apr 2020, 3:10 pm

Whale_Tuune wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Whale_Tuune wrote:
Most people hold on to some irrational beliefs.  Occam's razor also doesn't deal with reality.  It's an assumption that helps people conduct experiments and test things.  It's not meant to tell you what to believe outside of the realm of testable hypotheses.
Ahh ... but this "realm of testable hypotheses" you refer to actually IS reality!
Douglas Adams wrote:
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
You really believe that everything that is "real" can be tested and understood by humankind ... ?
Yes.  Eventually, humans may even understand the quantum underpinnings of reality itself.  Until then, humans will keep testing and increasing our understanding.


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Pepe
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24 Apr 2020, 10:12 pm

Fnord wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Why is this in PPR, btw?
Simple: I actually want intelligent people (such as yourself and ILB61) to post replies in this thread.  Now that certain other individuals have left this website, we may finally be able to intelligently discuss this and similar matters without too much snark and trollish behavior.

Carry on!


:D


When you become a mod, can I be your offsider?
We could be a team,
Like Batman and Skunk. :mrgreen:



Pepe
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24 Apr 2020, 11:01 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I don't mind if people are staunch believers or staunch disbelievers in science vs the unexplained. Everyone has their right to an opinion and their own personal experience.


In what context?
That concept is contingent on the culture/circumstance of the individual.

Childhood social indoctrination is, in reality, a form of mind rape,
Without the individual's awareness/permission of the process.

Also, consider:
Opinions can be shaped through cultural priorities,
Or through the dictates of, errr, dictators.
Refer to: Hilter Youth.

BTW,
There is no "intrinsic" right to freedom of expression,
Nor a Nietzschean borderless canvas to design them on.
Our social architects rarely allow that.
Some of us simply "get lucky". :wink:
And simply observing people, indicates how little "metacognitional" insights most have.

My point?
There are "opinions",
And then there are "Opinions".

Damn,
I am *so* enlightened,
It hurts. 8)



TheRobotLives
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25 Apr 2020, 12:24 am

Cause humans are emotional creatures.

Image


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Pepe
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25 Apr 2020, 3:23 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
Cause humans are emotional creatures.

Image


Don't get me started,

One of my first threads, about 7 years ago, was all about how emotionalistic humans are, particularly NTs.

I am literally staggered, mentally speaking, at how NT society is so super-focused on pushing emotionalism down the throats of everyone.
The songs, the books, the movies, the politics.
Am *I* the only Vulcan on this damned misbegotten NT planet? :evil: :wink:

How the hell can so many people not see how they are being manipulated, not only by our social architects, but by the evolutionary process?
So many people seem to be unaware of the instinctual forces manipulating their motivation/desires.
And, so much of social indoctrination aids and abets this ignorance.
Where the hell is Nietzche when you need him? 8)



Karamazov
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25 Apr 2020, 5:10 am

Pepe wrote:
Where the hell is Nietzche when you need him? 8)


Crying over an abused donkey. :mrgreen:



aghogday
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25 Apr 2020, 6:12 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
Cause humans are emotional creatures.

https://iheartintelligence.com/wp-conte ... eatmap.jpg


Love The Image. Science Shows Emotions are the Source of Most
All Our Rational Decisions Before
We Even ‘Know’ We Make Them.

A Greatest Existential Intelligence
Existence Hack Is To Regulate Emotions And Integrate Senses Through Moving
Meditation; As Yes, ‘the Heat’ of Emotions From Organic Connections Head to toe is What warms us With Happiness Whole Or Literally even Restricts Blood Flow As Neurochemicals And Neurohormones Naturally Do As Messengers of The ‘Light or Dark’ We Feel From Head to toe; All lit up in Happy ‘Luke Hot’ In Peace and Harmony Or “Butt Hurt” as ‘Some Folks’ relate.

Additionally, the “Heat Chart” Does Relate the “Body Keeps Score”. Folks who sit on their Butts too much and are Sexually Repressed Are just more Likely to Be Unhappy. i stay Lit-Up Happy in Peace And Harmony; Simply for i address the Root Cause of What Rationality; Yes, SCIENCE relates is the Root of all we Do And Think FIRST, through Moving Meditation; How i master the ‘Root’.

As A Participant Anthropology
Observer; just for a “Golden Age
Hobby”, i Am often Amused Here,
By Those who ‘say’ they are Rational;
But are obviously Ruled by their Emotions As They Have Not
Yet Mastered What Precedes
Most all of What they Do and Say.

Those Who
Dance, Generally FEELING, First,
Win; Yes, It’s Science too; No Escape
But Using “Common Sense”, ‘LiTeRaLLy’.


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QuantumChemist
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25 Apr 2020, 11:00 am

Fnord wrote:
Whale_Tuune wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Whale_Tuune wrote:
Most people hold on to some irrational beliefs.  Occam's razor also doesn't deal with reality.  It's an assumption that helps people conduct experiments and test things.  It's not meant to tell you what to believe outside of the realm of testable hypotheses.
Ahh ... but this "realm of testable hypotheses" you refer to actually IS reality!
Douglas Adams wrote:
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
You really believe that everything that is "real" can be tested and understood by humankind ... ?
Yes.  Eventually, humans may even understand the quantum underpinnings of reality itself.  Until then, humans will keep testing and increasing our understanding.


I have been chasing after that last goal for a very long time. Unfortunately there are limitations on what we can actually test in science. That is the curse for being an imperfect human.

For example, I think Albert Einstein almost had the Theory Of Everything equation before he died in 1955. That was something he wanted to find for more than thirty years. His Special Theory of Relativity equation translates energy to matter/anti-matter and vice versa. What he missed is what happens in the process to make the matter/anti-matter.. My theory is that the energy that is used to form matter particles exist as the properties of the particles that are created.

In other words, the gravity, magnetism, strong force and weak force all come from the energy that makes up these particles of matter. Particles are formed as the electromagnetic “momentum vectors” become bent into certain shapes, giving rise to their properties. This involves understanding a modified version of String Theory to be able to see what is going on inside particles. Unfortunately, we do not have the current capability to measure those quantities on single particles with exact values. We also cannot make single particles of matter without undergoing pair production. I would love to see if my TOE theory is true with an experiment, but I will likely never live that long.

It sucks to be out of time and place in the universe.



Fnord
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25 Apr 2020, 2:28 pm

While you and I may never see FTL travel in our lifetimes, I have hope that Humanity may one day figure out a work-around to the Causality Principle -- not much faith, mind you; just hope.


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