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sly279
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21 May 2020, 7:03 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
So, what you're indicating here is that you condone vigilante justice rather than justice through the rule of law? Interesting.

After all, what could possibly go wrong should this become common practice.


I think he was referring to natural justice rather than condoning vigilantes, come to think of it weren't the McMichael boys or Zimmerman vigilantes? weren't you providing oxygen for their actions?


I thought I was quite clear, I have no moral issue whatsoever with 'some street soldier' putting any of those three in a big bag. Since I also ultimately believe in rule of law, if the perpetrator were to be apprehended he (or she) should face whatever legal ramifications result and I assume they would be severe. That doesn't mean I wouldn't also consider putting money on their commissary account, because I'm sure they've repented adequately. :wink:


And then they get killed by family or friends of the ones they killed, rinse and repeat
Eye for eye leaves the whole world blind.
Then you have hundred year war of killing each other with out even remembering why.
But suppose we can be like the The Hatfield & McCoys. Who still hate each other to this day.

My biological dad is a child rapist but I’m nit going kill him. Justice has failed over and over to stop or punish him. I don’t think the answer is for someone to kill him.


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cyberdad
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21 May 2020, 7:15 pm

sly279 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
It is interesting to see how both disagree with what happened to Mr Arbery morally, but also to see how what happened (or at least was known at the time of the video) is affected/relates to the laws in Georgia. They also discuss how the respective laws should, in their opinion, be changed, and how the law in the country/location where a person lives can impact thier belief in what should happen next based on the laws where they live. It also provided quite a bit of context regarding the actions of the McMichaels and how they fitted within (or outside) the legal requirements for the state.


My guess is the McMichaels defence lawyers are using the "stand your ground law" states that a person who is being threatened by another person's use of force does not have a duty to retreat or back down before he or she can legally use force against the attacker.

This whole case pivots on McMichael's testimony that Arbery threatened him and he reacted within the law to defend himself. I have watched a couple of videos from the dashcam of McMichael's friend where the footage conveniently blacks out when Arbery approaches McMichael. But even then McMichael is on very shaky ground because the use of the "stand your ground" law applies to protecting your home not to stalking somebody with a weapon outside.

I think the Zimmerman case is closest to this case where the victim is unable to testify so the perpetrator (defendant) can frame the incident through lawyers to give the impression of self-defence. The morality of Arbery is irrelevant as the correct procedure was explained by the dispatch to leave Arbery alone (exactly like the Zimmerman case) but they chose to pursue him despite the victim not being a threat to anyone!


You’re confusing castle law with stand your ground. Stand your ground means you can defend yourself where ever you are, as it should be.
Situations like this one are muddy but the law is good.
I personally won’t turn my back to someone trying to kill me .
Oddly enough the law backs the victim also in him trying to disarm the two with guns. So if you oppose it you are saying the victim should have just continued to try to run or wait for police rather then fighting for his life. Stand yiur ground isn’t a gun law it’s a law protecting the right of self defense.


Thanks, I am not familiar with American federal law or state law. My thought it was the defence team who would be drawing on the law. I don't have a stake in the outcome.



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21 May 2020, 7:16 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Secondly, discussion of banned users is against the rules.


:)



vermontsavant
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21 May 2020, 9:00 pm

The guy who shot the video of the incident has just been arrested.


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Brictoria
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21 May 2020, 9:19 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
The guy who shot the video of the incident has just been arrested.


Is there any indication is the arrest is related to this incident, or some other reason (and if related what the charges are)?



TheRobotLives
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21 May 2020, 10:13 pm

Brictoria wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
The guy who shot the video of the incident has just been arrested.


Is there any indication is the arrest is related to this incident, or some other reason (and if related what the charges are)?

It's like when bank robbers have a *getaway driver* that sits outside.

That driver can be charged with any murders, robberies, or other felonies that happened on the inside by others.


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Brictoria
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21 May 2020, 10:46 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
The guy who shot the video of the incident has just been arrested.


Is there any indication is the arrest is related to this incident, or some other reason (and if related what the charges are)?

It's like when bank robbers have a *getaway driver* that sits outside.

That driver can be charged with any murders, robberies, or other felonies that happened on the inside by others.


I was aware of that: hence my question regarding if the arrest was related (and what charges), as the information didn't (and your contribution doesn't) indicate whether this arrest was connected to the case, or was a result of something completely unrelated but reported on as this person is now "high profile" in relation to his actions.

Of course, it could just be something we have here that doesn't happen in the USA, where a high profile person in one case makes news for being arrested on a completely unrelated matter.



funeralxempire
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21 May 2020, 11:08 pm

sly279 wrote:
And then they get killed by family or friends of the ones they killed, rinse and repeat


The primary difference between people who already kill people for a living (the people who I suggested might be well-situated to serve justice in this case) is that they're professionals who have already gotten away with similar crimes and generally aren't hired to perform work in the community where their loved ones live. If the mob whacked your dad, even if you wanted revenge on those who did it you wouldn't be in a position to pursue it. Same with these murderers loved ones, they won't know who did it and they'll have no choice but to accept that they're incapable of effectively pursuing vengeance and that even if that changes all that will happen is more of them will suffer the same fate.

Further, depending on the state the objective was left in, sometimes that very clearly communicates that it would be wise to not consider attempting revenge. Roose Bolton tactics would be an effective way of communicating that message.

If the white supremacists retaliate by targeting random civilians that will only cost support because not that many people are going to care that much about a murderer getting his wig sprayed, certainly not enough to support their neighbours resorting to domestic terrorism and murdering more innocent civilians.


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22 May 2020, 9:41 am

Brictoria wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
The guy who shot the video of the incident has just been arrested.


Is there any indication is the arrest is related to this incident, or some other reason (and if related what the charges are)?

It's like when bank robbers have a *getaway driver* that sits outside.

That driver can be charged with any murders, robberies, or other felonies that happened on the inside by others.


I was aware of that: hence my question regarding if the arrest was related (and what charges), as the information didn't (and your contribution doesn't) indicate whether this arrest was connected to the case, or was a result of something completely unrelated but reported on as this person is now "high profile" in relation to his actions.

Of course, it could just be something we have here that doesn't happen in the USA, where a high profile person in one case makes news for being arrested on a completely unrelated matter.

"An initial police report noted Bryan tried unsuccessfully to block Arbery, who was jogging in the neighborhood when confronted"
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/man-filmed-sh ... ories.html

So. he appears complicit in the charged felony murder.


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Brictoria
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22 May 2020, 10:01 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
The guy who shot the video of the incident has just been arrested.


Is there any indication is the arrest is related to this incident, or some other reason (and if related what the charges are)?

It's like when bank robbers have a *getaway driver* that sits outside.

That driver can be charged with any murders, robberies, or other felonies that happened on the inside by others.


I was aware of that: hence my question regarding if the arrest was related (and what charges), as the information didn't (and your contribution doesn't) indicate whether this arrest was connected to the case, or was a result of something completely unrelated but reported on as this person is now "high profile" in relation to his actions.

Of course, it could just be something we have here that doesn't happen in the USA, where a high profile person in one case makes news for being arrested on a completely unrelated matter.

"An initial police report noted Bryan tried unsuccessfully to block Arbery, who was jogging in the neighborhood when confronted"
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/man-filmed-sh ... ories.html


Thanks for the update...I had just seen something indicating he has been charged with felony murder and attempted false imprisonment.

Looks like case will come down to false imprisonment (alleged) vs "citizen's arrest" (defence argument), with murder/self defence attatched, which will translate into what was Mr Arbery's reason for being at the house being built, and what would/should the McMichael's have known.

If defence can prove valid cause for attempting citizen's arrest, they will likely be able to claim self defence for the killing, if not, that would be a lot harder...Unfortunately, we probably won't see the complete range of evidence until trial, so hard to say which way it will go.



TheRobotLives
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22 May 2020, 10:10 am

Brictoria wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
The guy who shot the video of the incident has just been arrested.


Is there any indication is the arrest is related to this incident, or some other reason (and if related what the charges are)?

It's like when bank robbers have a *getaway driver* that sits outside.

That driver can be charged with any murders, robberies, or other felonies that happened on the inside by others.


I was aware of that: hence my question regarding if the arrest was related (and what charges), as the information didn't (and your contribution doesn't) indicate whether this arrest was connected to the case, or was a result of something completely unrelated but reported on as this person is now "high profile" in relation to his actions.

Of course, it could just be something we have here that doesn't happen in the USA, where a high profile person in one case makes news for being arrested on a completely unrelated matter.

"An initial police report noted Bryan tried unsuccessfully to block Arbery, who was jogging in the neighborhood when confronted"
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/man-filmed-sh ... ories.html


Thanks for the update...I had just seen something indicating he has been charged with felony murder and attempted false imprisonment.

Looks like case will come down to false imprisonment (alleged) vs "citizen's arrest" (defence argument), with murder/self defence attatched, which will translate into what was Mr Arbery's reason for being at the house being built, and what would/should the McMichael's have known.

If defence can prove valid cause for attempting citizen's arrest, they will likely be able to claim self defence for the killing, if not, that would be a lot harder...Unfortunately, we probably won't see the complete range of evidence until trial, so hard to say which way it will go.

The police had no grounds to arrest Mr. Aubrey because it doesn't appear he committed any crime.

The McMichael's will need to convince a jury that they have more authority than the police.


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TheRobotLives
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22 May 2020, 10:36 am

The owner of the property should put up "No Trespassing" signs.

That is in Georgia law as establishing a person has "unlawful intent".

Then Mr. Aubrey would of been clearly trespassing.


Image


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Last edited by TheRobotLives on 22 May 2020, 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

quite an extreme
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22 May 2020, 1:26 pm

All I can see in the video is that the black guy did run to the one with the gun and they were invisibly behind the car during the first shot. We can't see what happened once it came to the first shot but we can see that the black guy had grabbed the gun already when they became visibly and the rest afterwards was fighting for the gun and just because of this self defense. I don't see why we should discuss this here.


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cyberdad
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22 May 2020, 5:01 pm

quite an extreme wrote:
and the rest afterwards was fighting for the gun and just because of this self defense. I don't see why we should discuss this here.


Which video did you watch? the one I watched shows Arbery (he had a name) running before the final fatal shot? at that point the video switches off



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22 May 2020, 8:32 pm

I wonder who's in that 1367 Sq. Ft. single family home built in 1977 at the moment. I don't imagine 230 Satilla Drive is an address that feels very safe at the moment.


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26 May 2020, 3:18 pm

Syd wrote:
cyberdad wrote:

What next...black man assaulted for breathing?


"I can't breathe."

— Eric Garner


History repeats itself.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/26/us/minne ... index.html