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16 May 2020, 5:11 pm

While your question is phrased as "eliminating psychopathy" as in the condition, the reality is your actual intention is to "eliminate psychoPATHS", the people. So basically you're asking if we should murder anyone who (theoretically) tests positive for being a psychopath (if such a test even existed), even if they've never done anything wrong.

Your reasoning seems to be that all psychopaths are violent bullies, and if we killed them all the world would be safe. I've heard the phrase "the world would be better if we just got rid of all the (group of people)" far too many times to be ok with it. People say literally the same thing about autistic people. "They are dangerous, and we should just eliminate them". Even your excuse of "psychopaths aren't really even people, and they serve no purpose" has been said about autistics and other disabled and non-typical people. Deciding that groups of people aren't actually people, has been the excuse given for some of the worst treatment inflicted upon other human beings throughout history, from slavery to genocide. I can't help but feel that treading that path is a fairly universal mistake.

I don't think you actually know what a "psychopath" or a "socaiopath" are. I think you know what pop culture and movies and tv make them out to be, mixed with some personal bias. Most people don't actually know what the terms mean, or meant, since they don't really apply anymore. We (science) understand the underlying conditions a lot better than we used to.

I think you've been hurt, and are lashing out at what you see as an easy solution. But I think you'd be disappointed to find out that life isn't that simple, and neither are people. Being a "psychopath" is far from the only reason or factor when it comes to someone being a bully or having violent tendencies. And, being a "psychopath" does not mean someone has harmed, or ever will harm, another living thing.

The violent "psychopath" is just a sensationalized stereotype. A minority at best, along with all the other most extreme cases of things we see in movies, from the tourette person who won't stop screaming profanity and smacking people, the adhd person who acts like a speed freak and never stops talking, the ocd person who cant step on cracks and has to wash their hands every 5 minutes or they'll freak out, the schizophrenic with a colorful array of unique and amusing multiple personalities, the autistic person who can do calculus in their head but cant be trusted to live on their own without burning the house down, and every other cliche stereotype that's been distorted from reality in order to make a more entertaining "reality".

Plans like this inevitably devolve into "kill anyone who's different", and eventually swallow even those it was meant to protect. It's a fear reaction, and as it continues to not-solve the problem it was meant to, the atrocities get committed more and faster, in order to affect the desired change which continues to not come, and as the scapegoats get fewer, the blame intensifies, for surely these last few must be causing all of the remaining problems. Until finally they're all gone, and the problem still remains, so they turn to the next group to "eliminate".

Bad idea.



Bradleigh
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16 May 2020, 5:43 pm

I would rather help people who have mental problems that they cannot help. Allow them to live in a way that lets exist as close to being normal as possible.


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17 May 2020, 12:54 am

if we can send blinkin' men to the blinkin' moon multiple times, we should long ago have been able to establish a treatment protocol that IDs the psychos early on and tailors education and counseling to suit them and steer them in a more positive direction.



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17 May 2020, 7:08 am

magz wrote:
I had a friend who didn't seem much bothered by morals.
But he also didn't have much drive to abuse people.
He just instinctively looked for what would or wouldn't pay off - and as allies are more beneficial than enemies, he usually chose to be neutral-nice.
Yes, he was my real friend. We did quite a lot of good teamwork.
His dream job was to be a coroner.

I didn't hear from him for a long time, I'm awful in maintaining old friendships. Last time I heard from him, he was happily married, had two children and a job in a pharmacy.

I don't know what his neurology was but, apparently, lack of strong emotional reaction to morals does not automatically make one abusive - unless in abusive environment, I guess.


He sounds more like a pragmatist than amoral.

Morality, after all, is simply a quirk of the evolutionary process, coupled with social conditioning.
But knowing that doesn't make one amoral or immoral.
Intellectual enlightenment doesn't inherently change the emotional/conscience mechanism, within a person, though a desensitising program could, in theory, overcome that.
That is how sociopaths are made, generally, through psychological-abuse/brainwashing.

But in "normal" situations, there isn't a great motivation in neutering one's own moral compass, and that creates a situation where it is easier to work with one's inherent emotional sensitivities, rather than against them.
Simples. :wink:


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17 May 2020, 7:14 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Pepe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
There seems to be some different conclusions as to what is sociopath or a psychopath,from what I've read.

What seems to come is that a psychopath is more normal in presentation to the world.

Where as sociopaths have more trouble dealing with everyday life and have more issues with rage and anger.And present to the world as more disfuctional.

It still seems like a splitting of samantic hairs and it doesn't feel like these definitions will hold true in 30 years and psychology will redefine them.


Neither psychopath nor sociopath are in current use as diagnostic terms by any psychiatric or psychological organization, so it's just bickering over pop culture slang anyways; the terms aren't valid jargon anymore.


The colloquial terms of psychopathy and sociopathy are covered unter the umbrella of "anti-social personality disorder".
Most people who have studied psychology, these days, can understand where the terms can be applied.

Are you saying that, if an intellectual construct is not included in a "manual", it doesn't exist?
Rather, I would like to ask why these quirks of human psychology haven't been definitive, errr, defined. 8O


I'm saying there's no sense in arguing over the meaning of an obsolete term because there's correct jargon to use if you're trying to use the concept in it's traditional meaning and otherwise it's just bickering by non-experts over how they personally define a slang term which is about as valuable as a long monologue about how you categorize your belly button lint.


I will continue to use both terms.
Call me a psycho-dinosaur. :mrgreen:


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Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


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19 May 2020, 4:48 am

Something on the topic that I just encountered:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 190000.htm

They are trying to understand the difference between the "violent" and the "successful" psychopaths.
Apparently, it's one's ability (maybe also willingness?) to self-control.


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19 May 2020, 6:46 am

^^^i wonder how much of that is nature, and how much is nurture or something else as yet unknown?



Pepe
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19 May 2020, 10:00 am

magz wrote:
Something on the topic that I just encountered:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 190000.htm

They are trying to understand the difference between the "violent" and the "successful" psychopaths.
Apparently, it's one's ability (maybe also willingness?) to self-control.


Interesting, but the article doesn't really say that much.
It really just makes the point that antisocial behaviour is a choice, give some degree of self control.

Based on what I have read, psychopaths tend to be above average in intelligence.
An intelligent person is in a better position to understand the consequences of their actions.
Avoiding incarceration is a good career choice. :wink:

Also,
Intelligent people can create, what I call, "Intellectual Bridges".
For example.
Those on the spectrum tend to have difficulty recognising body language cues.
"Intellectual Bridges", while not as quick as intuitive understanding, can be very effective, perhaps more so, due to it being a more conscious/cognitive process.

Just sayin'. :wink:


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Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,




Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


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19 May 2020, 12:16 pm

A Difference Between A Psychopathic Leaning Person not able to Control Aggression
that Leads to Impulsive Behavior that Harms others and One who Does not; is Obviously
Regulation of Emotions And Integration of Senses Same.

In Other Words; The
Before And After Martial Artist
With This Propensity of Harmful
Impulsive Emotions of Aggression Regulated and Well Controlled.

Of course that is only one method of Curing the DisEase of
Aggressive Emotions That Result in Actions that Harm Other Folks;

Thinking Emotions Away Do Not Work, well; Regulating Actual Emotions
For Example Through the Body From Head to Toe in Martial Arts Most Definitely will.

And On the Other Hand, someone Timid might Finally Walk as Gracefully and Fearlessly as a Lion;
Sure, someone Timid With A Very Nurturing Nature Who Is too Afraid to Even Express the Emotion of Love.

My Suggestion is to become a Martial Artist; And Hell No; You Never Have to Strike Any Object or Human;
Just Regulate Your Emotions and Integrate Your Senses through Moving Meditation from Head to Toe;
Science Already Shows it Works for Folks who Need the Medicine Now of Regulating their Emotions
And Integrating their Senses for Real; Just Being A Peaceful River Flowing Harmoniously and Much
More Likely In Laser Focus of Cognitive Executive Functioning With Greater Short Term and Long Term
Working And Retrieving Memory for Sure for Real too; to Greater Bring Success in Life in all that a Person does;

Or, i suppose someone could sit on their butt and try to think their Emotions Away;
Ha! Emotions come first; overall, a Lost Cause; Tail Wagging the Dog. And on Top of
That Repressed Emotions often Manifest As Somatic Symptoms of Distress/Pain and
Eventual Disease from that Basic
Human Origin
As/Of Negative Stress.

It's worth noting, Science
Shows We Are Not Our Thoughts;
Easy to get Lost that way and Never now
Navigate REAL Life With Ease as Emotions are
the core of Motivating all we do; Harnessing them
NoW in Regulating Feelings and Integrating Senses
for a Real Force of Life is Key to All Wins of LiFE NoW.


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19 May 2020, 11:42 pm

aghogday wrote:
Thinking Emotions Away Do Not Work, well; Regulating Actual Emotions
For Example Through the Body From Head to Toe in Martial Arts Most Definitely will.


Yup,
Emotional maintenance.


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Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,




Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


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20 May 2020, 5:03 am

auntblabby wrote:
if we can send blinkin' men to the blinkin' moon multiple times, we should long ago have been able to establish a treatment protocol that IDs the psychos early on and tailors education and counseling to suit them and steer them in a more positive direction.


This, most likely, would not be profitable to society.


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magz
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20 May 2020, 5:30 am

HighLlama wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
if we can send blinkin' men to the blinkin' moon multiple times, we should long ago have been able to establish a treatment protocol that IDs the psychos early on and tailors education and counseling to suit them and steer them in a more positive direction.

This, most likely, would not be profitable to society.

Why?


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20 May 2020, 5:37 am

Llama might believe that indulging psychopaths might lead to these psychopaths “accepting themselves as they are,” thereby providing credence to their behavior and their actions.

Psychopaths seem to know how to charm therapist types.



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20 May 2020, 5:44 am

magz wrote:
HighLlama wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
if we can send blinkin' men to the blinkin' moon multiple times, we should long ago have been able to establish a treatment protocol that IDs the psychos early on and tailors education and counseling to suit them and steer them in a more positive direction.

This, most likely, would not be profitable to society.

Why?


Because society isn't about prevention or giving people fulfilling lives based around their individuality. Businesses make security devices to stop a crime before it happens, not to prevent people from ever considering the crime. This is because devices, not fulfillment, make businesses money. Society often monetizes needless tragedy to show it is helping us "progress." Capitalism is about capital, not people, after all. So there's not much incentive to really get rid of harmful people, if they only cause an optimum amount of harm to society in general.

Also, how many people classified as Cluster B by the DSM really go to therapy? These tend not to be people begging for help, because they already think they're perfect. It's everyone else who is the problem. Social harmony is as much an illusion as endless prosperity.


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20 May 2020, 7:32 am

HighLlama wrote:
magz wrote:
HighLlama wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
if we can send blinkin' men to the blinkin' moon multiple times, we should long ago have been able to establish a treatment protocol that IDs the psychos early on and tailors education and counseling to suit them and steer them in a more positive direction.

This, most likely, would not be profitable to society.

Why?


Because society isn't about prevention or giving people fulfilling lives based around their individuality. Businesses make security devices to stop a crime before it happens, not to prevent people from ever considering the crime. This is because devices, not fulfillment, make businesses money. Society often monetizes needless tragedy to show it is helping us "progress." Capitalism is about capital, not people, after all. So there's not much incentive to really get rid of harmful people, if they only cause an optimum amount of harm to society in general.

Also, how many people classified as Cluster B by the DSM really go to therapy? These tend not to be people begging for help, because they already think they're perfect. It's everyone else who is the problem. Social harmony is as much an illusion as endless prosperity.


The "Dark Underworld" utilises psychopaths and sociopaths.
Joseph Mengele was very useful to the Nazis regime, as an example.
I can't see "The Powers That Be" getting rid of useful "Tools". 8O


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Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,




Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


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20 May 2020, 10:13 am



"The list of jobs with the highest rates of psychopathy:

CEO
Lawyer
Media (TV/Radio)
Salesperson
Surgeon
Journalist
Police Officer
Clergy Person
Chef
Civil Servant

The list of jobs with the lowest rates of psychopathy:

Care Aide
Nurse
Therapist
Craftsperson
Beautician/Stylist
Charity Worker
Teacher
Creative Artist
Doctor
Accountant

Compiled by Oxford psychologist Kevin Dutton, author of The Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints, Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success.

Dutton has said that ”a number of psychopathic attributes [are] actually more common in business leaders than in so-called disturbed criminals — attributes such as superficial charm, egocentricity, persuasiveness, lack of empathy, independence, and focus.”

This may explain why many of the jobs attractive to psychopaths - such as CEO's, salespeople and media types - are often found in the tech industry."

It's Already Established through the 'Science of Psychology' that Develops Lists and Labels for
Patterns of Undesirable Behaviors For Humans that 'Anti-Social-Personality-Disorder'; the Catch
All for 'the Piranhas' of Society Do Not Necessarily Have to meet A Deficit of Empathy as A Required Negative
Trait; to 'Qualify' for a Diagnosis as it is only one of Other traits where a Majority of the Traits are required for Diagnosis.

Just to Use Autism Spectrum Disorder and Bi-Polar Disorder as an example that i am fully familiar with;
One can Be Seen as Successful in Work-life with the Energy and Reasoning Powers to Solve all the Problems
And Escape without a Diagnosis until one's 40's and 50's; and even never get diagnosed, unless the Challenges
of Life; both Problem Solving And Social Interactions Become More than one is able to Successfully Adapt to in Life.

We Humans Are all Spectrums of Epigenetic And Neuroplastic Potentials; Negative and Positive, in both Problem
Solving and Social Interacting; As Well as All Stuff Art as that Relates to Science too; across the Lifespan Changing.

Typically Folks on the Bi-Polar Spectrum Who have Low Levels of Latent Inhibition, which means they feel and sense
more of the Environment than most folks do, both in Empathy and Actual Sensory Receiving of Environmental Stimuli;
the ones who have much Higher 'Standard IQ' are much more Likely to Navigate Life as they are better able to Use
the Mechanical Cognition of the Neo-Cortex to Find Effective Ways to Adapt to these Challenges of Life; Problem
Solving for the Art of Life it is; as the Art of Life Becomes Science too; with the Reasoning Powers we have or do
not have.

This is why i Thrive the way i do 'Dancing A Tight Rope with Ease' as is for all of what i do; but i am complex enough as
a Human Being Where it took 5.3 Decades to Find a Personal MaNuaL That Works for me consistently always now.

My Mother Was on a Bi-Polar Spectrum; She Was as Nurturing and Empathic as one will ever find
in a Human Being as Long as the Environment Around Her Gardened that way of Being In Her; She
Was Successful enough in life, where she was never diagnosed with anything; But Obviously she had
her ups and downs.

My Father Was on a Spectrum Near Autism; And His Father who as an Irish Catholic Priest too; eventually an
Excommunicated one That led to my Existence too of course, in Getting Married and Having Children;
Both Of them Are and Were Described As Aloof; And Not Having Depth of An Emotional Life; My
Father Was in Law-Enforcement for 46 Years; You don't do that if you are not secure in who you are;
but the only time he expressed Emotion was when his 20 Year-Old Cat Died and My Son Died; so he
wasn't totally Dead inside as some 'Psychopathic Cannibal Types Are'; And Thank Goodness that Extreme is rare;
Of course, unless the Culture Supports Cannibalism As some 'Tribes' Have and Still Do, to some degree or another.
Of course, Neither Were Diagnosed and even if a Label was available when they were Young Enough to Get Diagnosed;
They found their Niche and successfully completed their Lives with what they were able to do at best to stay afloat; That's
Life Really We All Do That Or Not.


Anyway; here's the point again; We Need everyone on Both Top 10 Ten Lists as a WHOLE SOCIETY to Survive;
Meeting the Needs of Diversity in Humanity; as some folks can make it without 'Church' and some Folks Just can't
in terms of a Charismatic Leader with 'Psychopathic Leaning Traits' to take their Anxieties away in whatever Sales
Pitch comes next; Just because this or the other Person is not that Weak and Vulnerable; doesn't change the reality
some folks are and Require Different Carrots and Stick to Make their Best Possible Life Real Now; "Pursuit of
Happiness" As 'they' Dreamed this Possibility into Fruition; 'Founding Fathers and Mothers' Of course still now.

Bottom Lines; Society isn't possible
Without Neuro-Diversity; try to somehow
Genetically Engineer one Vanilla Perfect Flavor
of Human Being in either Creating or Eliminating Folks;
Then The Society Goes Away; Let's Face it, the Smile on a
Down's Child who will Hold the Hand of an Outcast in Church;
Perhaps, a Young Lesbian Woman who that day in Church was contemplating
Suicide because she didn't feel like there is any place in this World She Belongs,
Could make
a Life or
Death
Difference
That Day for Whether
or not She Decided to
Keep Breathing or Become the
First Woman President to make
a Decision that Saves the Human Species
From Certain Destruction and Extinction;
It's Very Possible that such a Woman And Such
A Down's Child Exist now who will Save The Entire Species from Extinction;
But You See the Rabbit 'WHoLE' Goes Deeper for those who do take 'THE RED PILL';
by saving the Human Species did or does that Action Destroy Most of the Rest of Nature
in the Future for 300 MiLLioN Years or so until the Rest of Nature Breathes Free without any of us at all.
It is
What
It is;
Make the
Best of it;
Come What May;
Loving it all The Best
We Can And Will; This Gift of Now is all we have for sure.

This is Life; Breathe; Really Breathe; or Do Not; This is what We have Giving Love at Best.

Empathy is a Muscle as Love Is; That We Either Garden And Flourish With; in Giving or Sharing
Free Or Do Not.

Giving More
Than Taking Free
Will Save All Who are concerned Best.

Come What May...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyclay/ ... ychopaths/


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