Page 8 of 9 [ 131 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,473
Location: Australia

19 May 2020, 10:00 am

magz wrote:
Something on the topic that I just encountered:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 190000.htm

They are trying to understand the difference between the "violent" and the "successful" psychopaths.
Apparently, it's one's ability (maybe also willingness?) to self-control.


Interesting, but the article doesn't really say that much.
It really just makes the point that antisocial behaviour is a choice, give some degree of self control.

Based on what I have read, psychopaths tend to be above average in intelligence.
An intelligent person is in a better position to understand the consequences of their actions.
Avoiding incarceration is a good career choice. :wink:

Also,
Intelligent people can create, what I call, "Intellectual Bridges".
For example.
Those on the spectrum tend to have difficulty recognising body language cues.
"Intellectual Bridges", while not as quick as intuitive understanding, can be very effective, perhaps more so, due to it being a more conscious/cognitive process.

Just sayin'. :wink:


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."

Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,141

19 May 2020, 12:16 pm

A Difference Between A Psychopathic Leaning Person not able to Control Aggression
that Leads to Impulsive Behavior that Harms others and One who Does not; is Obviously
Regulation of Emotions And Integration of Senses Same.

In Other Words; The
Before And After Martial Artist
With This Propensity of Harmful
Impulsive Emotions of Aggression Regulated and Well Controlled.

Of course that is only one method of Curing the DisEase of
Aggressive Emotions That Result in Actions that Harm Other Folks;

Thinking Emotions Away Do Not Work, well; Regulating Actual Emotions
For Example Through the Body From Head to Toe in Martial Arts Most Definitely will.

And On the Other Hand, someone Timid might Finally Walk as Gracefully and Fearlessly as a Lion;
Sure, someone Timid With A Very Nurturing Nature Who Is too Afraid to Even Express the Emotion of Love.

My Suggestion is to become a Martial Artist; And Hell No; You Never Have to Strike Any Object or Human;
Just Regulate Your Emotions and Integrate Your Senses through Moving Meditation from Head to Toe;
Science Already Shows it Works for Folks who Need the Medicine Now of Regulating their Emotions
And Integrating their Senses for Real; Just Being A Peaceful River Flowing Harmoniously and Much
More Likely In Laser Focus of Cognitive Executive Functioning With Greater Short Term and Long Term
Working And Retrieving Memory for Sure for Real too; to Greater Bring Success in Life in all that a Person does;

Or, i suppose someone could sit on their butt and try to think their Emotions Away;
Ha! Emotions come first; overall, a Lost Cause; Tail Wagging the Dog. And on Top of
That Repressed Emotions often Manifest As Somatic Symptoms of Distress/Pain and
Eventual Disease from that Basic
Human Origin
As/Of Negative Stress.

It's worth noting, Science
Shows We Are Not Our Thoughts;
Easy to get Lost that way and Never now
Navigate REAL Life With Ease as Emotions are
the core of Motivating all we do; Harnessing them
NoW in Regulating Feelings and Integrating Senses
for a Real Force of Life is Key to All Wins of LiFE NoW.


_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,473
Location: Australia

19 May 2020, 11:42 pm

aghogday wrote:
Thinking Emotions Away Do Not Work, well; Regulating Actual Emotions
For Example Through the Body From Head to Toe in Martial Arts Most Definitely will.


Yup,
Emotional maintenance.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."

Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


HighLlama
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2015
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,462

20 May 2020, 5:03 am

auntblabby wrote:
if we can send blinkin' men to the blinkin' moon multiple times, we should long ago have been able to establish a treatment protocol that IDs the psychos early on and tailors education and counseling to suit them and steer them in a more positive direction.


This, most likely, would not be profitable to society.


_________________
Unofficially human.


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,210
Location: Poland

20 May 2020, 5:30 am

HighLlama wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
if we can send blinkin' men to the blinkin' moon multiple times, we should long ago have been able to establish a treatment protocol that IDs the psychos early on and tailors education and counseling to suit them and steer them in a more positive direction.

This, most likely, would not be profitable to society.

Why?


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
***** ***


kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 71,572
Location: Queens, NYC

20 May 2020, 5:37 am

Llama might believe that indulging psychopaths might lead to these psychopaths “accepting themselves as they are,” thereby providing credence to their behavior and their actions.

Psychopaths seem to know how to charm therapist types.



HighLlama
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2015
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,462

20 May 2020, 5:44 am

magz wrote:
HighLlama wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
if we can send blinkin' men to the blinkin' moon multiple times, we should long ago have been able to establish a treatment protocol that IDs the psychos early on and tailors education and counseling to suit them and steer them in a more positive direction.

This, most likely, would not be profitable to society.

Why?


Because society isn't about prevention or giving people fulfilling lives based around their individuality. Businesses make security devices to stop a crime before it happens, not to prevent people from ever considering the crime. This is because devices, not fulfillment, make businesses money. Society often monetizes needless tragedy to show it is helping us "progress." Capitalism is about capital, not people, after all. So there's not much incentive to really get rid of harmful people, if they only cause an optimum amount of harm to society in general.

Also, how many people classified as Cluster B by the DSM really go to therapy? These tend not to be people begging for help, because they already think they're perfect. It's everyone else who is the problem. Social harmony is as much an illusion as endless prosperity.


_________________
Unofficially human.


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,473
Location: Australia

20 May 2020, 7:32 am

HighLlama wrote:
magz wrote:
HighLlama wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
if we can send blinkin' men to the blinkin' moon multiple times, we should long ago have been able to establish a treatment protocol that IDs the psychos early on and tailors education and counseling to suit them and steer them in a more positive direction.

This, most likely, would not be profitable to society.

Why?


Because society isn't about prevention or giving people fulfilling lives based around their individuality. Businesses make security devices to stop a crime before it happens, not to prevent people from ever considering the crime. This is because devices, not fulfillment, make businesses money. Society often monetizes needless tragedy to show it is helping us "progress." Capitalism is about capital, not people, after all. So there's not much incentive to really get rid of harmful people, if they only cause an optimum amount of harm to society in general.

Also, how many people classified as Cluster B by the DSM really go to therapy? These tend not to be people begging for help, because they already think they're perfect. It's everyone else who is the problem. Social harmony is as much an illusion as endless prosperity.


The "Dark Underworld" utilises psychopaths and sociopaths.
Joseph Mengele was very useful to the Nazis regime, as an example.
I can't see "The Powers That Be" getting rid of useful "Tools". 8O


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."

Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,141

20 May 2020, 10:13 am



"The list of jobs with the highest rates of psychopathy:

CEO
Lawyer
Media (TV/Radio)
Salesperson
Surgeon
Journalist
Police Officer
Clergy Person
Chef
Civil Servant

The list of jobs with the lowest rates of psychopathy:

Care Aide
Nurse
Therapist
Craftsperson
Beautician/Stylist
Charity Worker
Teacher
Creative Artist
Doctor
Accountant

Compiled by Oxford psychologist Kevin Dutton, author of The Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints, Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us About Success.

Dutton has said that ”a number of psychopathic attributes [are] actually more common in business leaders than in so-called disturbed criminals — attributes such as superficial charm, egocentricity, persuasiveness, lack of empathy, independence, and focus.”

This may explain why many of the jobs attractive to psychopaths - such as CEO's, salespeople and media types - are often found in the tech industry."

It's Already Established through the 'Science of Psychology' that Develops Lists and Labels for
Patterns of Undesirable Behaviors For Humans that 'Anti-Social-Personality-Disorder'; the Catch
All for 'the Piranhas' of Society Do Not Necessarily Have to meet A Deficit of Empathy as A Required Negative
Trait; to 'Qualify' for a Diagnosis as it is only one of Other traits where a Majority of the Traits are required for Diagnosis.

Just to Use Autism Spectrum Disorder and Bi-Polar Disorder as an example that i am fully familiar with;
One can Be Seen as Successful in Work-life with the Energy and Reasoning Powers to Solve all the Problems
And Escape without a Diagnosis until one's 40's and 50's; and even never get diagnosed, unless the Challenges
of Life; both Problem Solving And Social Interactions Become More than one is able to Successfully Adapt to in Life.

We Humans Are all Spectrums of Epigenetic And Neuroplastic Potentials; Negative and Positive, in both Problem
Solving and Social Interacting; As Well as All Stuff Art as that Relates to Science too; across the Lifespan Changing.

Typically Folks on the Bi-Polar Spectrum Who have Low Levels of Latent Inhibition, which means they feel and sense
more of the Environment than most folks do, both in Empathy and Actual Sensory Receiving of Environmental Stimuli;
the ones who have much Higher 'Standard IQ' are much more Likely to Navigate Life as they are better able to Use
the Mechanical Cognition of the Neo-Cortex to Find Effective Ways to Adapt to these Challenges of Life; Problem
Solving for the Art of Life it is; as the Art of Life Becomes Science too; with the Reasoning Powers we have or do
not have.

This is why i Thrive the way i do 'Dancing A Tight Rope with Ease' as is for all of what i do; but i am complex enough as
a Human Being Where it took 5.3 Decades to Find a Personal MaNuaL That Works for me consistently always now.

My Mother Was on a Bi-Polar Spectrum; She Was as Nurturing and Empathic as one will ever find
in a Human Being as Long as the Environment Around Her Gardened that way of Being In Her; She
Was Successful enough in life, where she was never diagnosed with anything; But Obviously she had
her ups and downs.

My Father Was on a Spectrum Near Autism; And His Father who as an Irish Catholic Priest too; eventually an
Excommunicated one That led to my Existence too of course, in Getting Married and Having Children;
Both Of them Are and Were Described As Aloof; And Not Having Depth of An Emotional Life; My
Father Was in Law-Enforcement for 46 Years; You don't do that if you are not secure in who you are;
but the only time he expressed Emotion was when his 20 Year-Old Cat Died and My Son Died; so he
wasn't totally Dead inside as some 'Psychopathic Cannibal Types Are'; And Thank Goodness that Extreme is rare;
Of course, unless the Culture Supports Cannibalism As some 'Tribes' Have and Still Do, to some degree or another.
Of course, Neither Were Diagnosed and even if a Label was available when they were Young Enough to Get Diagnosed;
They found their Niche and successfully completed their Lives with what they were able to do at best to stay afloat; That's
Life Really We All Do That Or Not.


Anyway; here's the point again; We Need everyone on Both Top 10 Ten Lists as a WHOLE SOCIETY to Survive;
Meeting the Needs of Diversity in Humanity; as some folks can make it without 'Church' and some Folks Just can't
in terms of a Charismatic Leader with 'Psychopathic Leaning Traits' to take their Anxieties away in whatever Sales
Pitch comes next; Just because this or the other Person is not that Weak and Vulnerable; doesn't change the reality
some folks are and Require Different Carrots and Stick to Make their Best Possible Life Real Now; "Pursuit of
Happiness" As 'they' Dreamed this Possibility into Fruition; 'Founding Fathers and Mothers' Of course still now.

Bottom Lines; Society isn't possible
Without Neuro-Diversity; try to somehow
Genetically Engineer one Vanilla Perfect Flavor
of Human Being in either Creating or Eliminating Folks;
Then The Society Goes Away; Let's Face it, the Smile on a
Down's Child who will Hold the Hand of an Outcast in Church;
Perhaps, a Young Lesbian Woman who that day in Church was contemplating
Suicide because she didn't feel like there is any place in this World She Belongs,
Could make
a Life or
Death
Difference
That Day for Whether
or not She Decided to
Keep Breathing or Become the
First Woman President to make
a Decision that Saves the Human Species
From Certain Destruction and Extinction;
It's Very Possible that such a Woman And Such
A Down's Child Exist now who will Save The Entire Species from Extinction;
But You See the Rabbit 'WHoLE' Goes Deeper for those who do take 'THE RED PILL';
by saving the Human Species did or does that Action Destroy Most of the Rest of Nature
in the Future for 300 MiLLioN Years or so until the Rest of Nature Breathes Free without any of us at all.
It is
What
It is;
Make the
Best of it;
Come What May;
Loving it all The Best
We Can And Will; This Gift of Now is all we have for sure.

This is Life; Breathe; Really Breathe; or Do Not; This is what We have Giving Love at Best.

Empathy is a Muscle as Love Is; That We Either Garden And Flourish With; in Giving or Sharing
Free Or Do Not.

Giving More
Than Taking Free
Will Save All Who are concerned Best.

Come What May...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyclay/ ... ychopaths/


_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,210
Location: Poland

20 May 2020, 10:22 am

HighLlama wrote:
magz wrote:
HighLlama wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
if we can send blinkin' men to the blinkin' moon multiple times, we should long ago have been able to establish a treatment protocol that IDs the psychos early on and tailors education and counseling to suit them and steer them in a more positive direction.

This, most likely, would not be profitable to society.

Why?


Because society isn't about prevention or giving people fulfilling lives based around their individuality. Businesses make security devices to stop a crime before it happens, not to prevent people from ever considering the crime. This is because devices, not fulfillment, make businesses money. Society often monetizes needless tragedy to show it is helping us "progress." Capitalism is about capital, not people, after all. So there's not much incentive to really get rid of harmful people, if they only cause an optimum amount of harm to society in general.

Are you equating "society" to "big money"?
Wow. I don't. But even for the big money - cold, calculating CEOs are more beneficial than cold, calculating murderers.

Willingness to go to therapy is another matter - I understood Auntblabby's concept not as therapy for already psychopathic adults but as creating environment where potential psychopaths have less chance to grow up to do evil things.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
***** ***


HighLlama
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2015
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,462

20 May 2020, 11:52 am

magz wrote:
HighLlama wrote:
magz wrote:
HighLlama wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
if we can send blinkin' men to the blinkin' moon multiple times, we should long ago have been able to establish a treatment protocol that IDs the psychos early on and tailors education and counseling to suit them and steer them in a more positive direction.

This, most likely, would not be profitable to society.

Why?


Because society isn't about prevention or giving people fulfilling lives based around their individuality. Businesses make security devices to stop a crime before it happens, not to prevent people from ever considering the crime. This is because devices, not fulfillment, make businesses money. Society often monetizes needless tragedy to show it is helping us "progress." Capitalism is about capital, not people, after all. So there's not much incentive to really get rid of harmful people, if they only cause an optimum amount of harm to society in general.

Are you equating "society" to "big money"?
Wow. I don't. But even for the big money - cold, calculating CEOs are more beneficial than cold, calculating murderers.

Willingness to go to therapy is another matter - I understood Auntblabby's concept not as therapy for already psychopathic adults but as creating environment where potential psychopaths have less chance to grow up to do evil things.


I meant that civilization is its own cause. People--in the sense of individuals--are not its cause. I don't think CEOs are more beneficial. One can help make a product which is cheaper to produce halfway around the world than down the street from me. Obviously, that is not a good sign. Is diminishing the quality of lives in sweat shops, helping to ruin ecosystems through manufacturing, and potentially causing illnesses (cancer) through that manufacturing better than 7 corpses? I don't think we can weight one against the other. I think most people would choose the CEO because their actions seem less gruesome in the imagination, and because the person enjoys the product that company makes.

You are right--he was referring to young children. But education is geared toward making employees, not teaching critical thinking or rewarding free expression.


_________________
Unofficially human.


magz
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,210
Location: Poland

20 May 2020, 1:16 pm

CEO was just an example. I mean, you prefer cold-blooded, calculating people to do something other than crime in general, don't you?

I think you picture only a half of what civilisation is. Morals have very pragmatic use - they stabilise societes. That's why they don't get evolutionally removed. They are useful, even from very pragmatic point of view.
Drastically unfair societes are unstable - they change or revolt. Starting form the French Revolution, Europe has seen it until current social-democratic order kind of settled after WWII - and it's likely not yet the end of the process.
So, my question is: is it possible for people who lack the "moral sense" (just like I, as an Aspie, lack the "social sense") to accept basic morals for other reasons? If yes, how to do it?


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
***** ***


Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 44,596
Location: Stendec

20 May 2020, 1:27 pm

magz wrote:
... So, my question is: is it possible for people who lack the "moral sense" (just like I, as an Aspie, lack the "social sense") to accept basic morals for other reasons?
It seems likely that, just as an aspie can learn the Unwritten Rules of Social Behavior and apply them as needed to achieve his or her goals, so too could an amoral person learn the Unwritten Rules of Moral Behavior and apply those as needed to achieve his or her goals.
magz wrote:
If yes, how to do it?
I dunno ... trial and error?


_________________
 
Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


HighLlama
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2015
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,462

20 May 2020, 3:11 pm

magz wrote:
CEO was just an example. I mean, you prefer cold-blooded, calculating people to do something other than crime in general, don't you?


I would consider much of what CEOs do to be "criminal" in a euphemistic sense, even if it is legal. The problem with society and morals is we can personally find a social moral to be unacceptable. Should we just accept what is legal to be right, regardless of the consequences? Especially if law and society are just human invention?

[/quote]I think you picture only a half of what civilization is. Morals have very pragmatic use - they stabilize societies.[/quote]

Any social code can be a morality, no matter how hateful or how fair. I do not think they merely have pragmatic use. You also refer to morals as if they are some ideal existing outside the universe. Our sense of fairness and justice is based on our history and what we have been allowed to express--how honestly we can be with ourselves and others. There is no objective moral code we can consult. This does not mean all action is equally moral, but that many other people understand our moral values and do not share them. This is what Shakespeare meant to show the audience in Othello. Othello cannot imagine someone wouldn't share his (obviously logical) values. But, Iago understands those values and destroys them anyway.

Quote:
That's why they don't get evolutionally removed


Morals are a behavior, and we only stop behaving when we are dead. They are only evolutionary in that they relate to how we can behave mentally and physically.

Quote:
Drastically unfair societies are unstable - they change or revolt. Starting form the French Revolution, Europe has seen it until current social-democratic order kind of settled after WWII - and it's likely not yet the end of the process.


Many in society would have different opinions on how unfair theirs is. One problem with civilization is it attempts unnatural consensus among large numbers of people. I'm not sure we can make a generalization about society becoming more fair.

Quote:
So, my question is: is it possible for people who lack the "moral sense" (just like I, as an Aspie, lack the "social sense") to accept basic morals for other reasons? If yes, how to do it?


I don't think Aspies really lack a social sense. They have a different way of thinking and communicating, hence different interpersonal needs and values. The idea they lack social sense comes from neurotypicals who believe this because they have a whole different set of values, and tell themselves they are the human ideal. They don't like how Aspies make them feel about their own identity, so try to change Aspies.

People who lack a moral sense often have a keen understanding of society's moral codes, and believe they are above them. No serial murderer is simply confused about what society finds acceptable. They cannot be taught a moral sense because they know the rules, and live to destroy them. You are talking about people with deep issues regarding trust and vulnerability. It's an emotional and existential issue, not a moral one.


_________________
Unofficially human.


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,473
Location: Australia

20 May 2020, 7:16 pm

magz wrote:
CEO was just an example. I mean, you prefer cold-blooded, calculating people to do something other than crime in general, don't you?

I think you picture only a half of what civilisation is. Morals have very pragmatic use - they stabilise societes. That's why they don't get evolutionally removed. They are useful, even from very pragmatic point of view.
Drastically unfair societes are unstable - they change or revolt. Starting form the French Revolution, Europe has seen it until current social-democratic order kind of settled after WWII - and it's likely not yet the end of the process.
So, my question is: is it possible for people who lack the "moral sense" (just like I, as an Aspie, lack the "social sense") to accept basic morals for other reasons? If yes, how to do it?


<irony mode activated>
Hence the sustained existence of:
-North Korea,
-china
-And russia. :mrgreen:


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."

Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,473
Location: Australia

20 May 2020, 7:19 pm

Fnord wrote:
magz wrote:
... So, my question is: is it possible for people who lack the "moral sense" (just like I, as an Aspie, lack the "social sense") to accept basic morals for other reasons?
[color=black]It seems likely that, just as an aspie can learn the Unwritten Rules of Social Behavior and apply them as needed to achieve his or her goals, so too could an amoral person learn the Unwritten Rules of Moral Behavior and apply those as needed to achieve his or her goals.

I.E.
The development of "Intellectual Bridges". 8)


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."

Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)