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naturalplastic
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12 May 2020, 8:03 am

vermontsavant wrote:
Gromit wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
Your right, the official psyche jargon is the McDonald triad.But you get the point.

What I meant was that the evidence for the homicidal or McDonald triad is shaky, so you shouldn't state it as established fact. A point made more directly in the link that The_Walrus provided:
The_Walrus wrote:
The homicidal triad was quite popular at one time but is today considered an urban myth: https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog ... urban-myth
Bed wetting and fire starting maybe shaky but the abuse or killing of animals is definitley still taken seriously as a sign of future violence.


But I do agree with you here. Far greater numbers of children bedwet than grow up to be Bernie Madoff, or the Teflon Don. But I get the impression that torturing animals does seem to go with growing up to be a serial killer.



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12 May 2020, 8:06 am

vermontsavant wrote:
Pepe wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
Most psychopaths are non violent and are just master manipulator's and narcissists but and for the most part end up lonely and rarely cause serious violent harm to everyone.


You don't have to be antisocial if you are a psychopath.
It is just easier to become so if you have no empathy with the other person.

vermontsavant wrote:
I don't know enough about psychology to differentiate a psycopath from a sociopath but there isn't much difference,the difference is very nuanced.


Psychopaths are born.
Sociopaths are made.
I'm not sure that is true,the psychology profession has never formally specified a difference.


Maybe so. But according this lady doctor apparently the DO recognize a difference, even if its unofficial.



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12 May 2020, 8:34 am

naturalplastic wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
I want to clarify to those who argued or criticized my mention of psychopathy and autism,my point was this:

The OP said that sociopath's should be put in preventative detention or put in some work camp up on the North Korea/China border LOL.

My only point was that there was a time when autism was associated with psychopathy (since debunked) and that the OP should then take a "judge not lest ye be judged" attitude.That was my point I was trying to make by bring up "autistic psychopathy in childhood".

I was just saying we were once viewed in the light of psychopathy,so don't judge.

A.


No. They did NOT view us the same way. Thats what YOU don't understand about WE all are saying.

They used a label that sounded similar, but the label did not mean the same thing. Dr. Asperger did not view aspies as a threat to society.
Right! he was alluding to more of the asocial/schizoid personality type of sociopath use of the word(the word sociopath or psychopath is not used in that way anymore) but the moral of the story and main point was still "judge not lest ye be judged".That was what I meant the OP!

in earlier times the psychology profession was more moralistic and things like autism and schizophrenia were viewed in a more moral context.schizophrenia was viewed as extreme self absorbtion and the term autism described schizophrenics who lived in there own world.In the begining early autism doctor's thought autism was early childhood schozophrenia.

If early autism doctor's knew then what the psyche profession knows now,likely the word autism would never had been used,they would have said,childhood pervasive developmental disorder or something,but autism stuck and is here to stay.

In early times autism and schizophrenia were viewed in a moral context and withdrawn people were viewed as sociopathic.

But none of this is the point,I was only trying to say to the OP "don't judge"


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12 May 2020, 8:37 am

naturalplastic wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
Pepe wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
Most psychopaths are non violent and are just master manipulator's and narcissists but and for the most part end up lonely and rarely cause serious violent harm to everyone.


You don't have to be antisocial if you are a psychopath.
It is just easier to become so if you have no empathy with the other person.

vermontsavant wrote:
I don't know enough about psychology to differentiate a psycopath from a sociopath but there isn't much difference,the difference is very nuanced.


Psychopaths are born.
Sociopaths are made.
I'm not sure that is true,the psychology profession has never formally specified a difference.


Maybe so. But according this lady doctor apparently the DO recognize a difference, even if its unofficial.

This very well may be right,I have never claimed to be a shrink,I personally have never heard a distinct difference between the two but what do I know.


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12 May 2020, 9:21 am



"Psychology researchers generally believe that psychopaths tends to be born —
it’s likely a genetic predisposition"

Association Doesn't Necessarily Mean Causation;
Of Course It Doesn't as again These are all Labels (Psychopath/Sociopath)
With Behaviors That Do or Do Not Check Lists of Acceptable Social Behavior.

There are many Disorders Associated with Poverty of Empathy;
Whether Or not There Are Biological or Environmental Determinants.
A Lack of Empathy in A Social Animal That Depends on Cooperation
for Survival is inherently Paramount to Survival, Overall; Read That Generalization Term Again (Overall).

No No NO; Psychopathy is not JUST SIMPLY A Human Born Without the Ability for Empathy and Remorse.

(Everything Human IS A SPECTRUM) except for Labels of Course that Never Capture the Whole Human 'Story'.

On The Other Hands; When My Dentist Works on my Teeth, or if i Ever
Need Bodily Repair by a Surgeon; i'm Not Concerned with Warm And
Fuzzies Received During the Craft of their Work; i don't want any Shaky
Nervous Hands and Mistakes; i Want Anxiety-Free Focus in the Moment to Get the Job done correctly.
In Other Words, There are days When 'Human Affect' is Not Necessary for Human Survival in Specialities
That Require only a Step-By-Step-Craft to get a Job done Correctly with fewest Mistakes Possible; True,
Not someone
You want for
a 'Wet Nurse';
But We Need Neurodiversity
to Get All the Jobs Done in
the Best Possible Ways Now
For 'TOTAL BEST HUMAN SURVIVAL, OVERALL'.

PRO LOVE TIP: The Best Leaders Have Empathy:
The Worst Leaders Have NO SIGNS OF EMPATHY.
But Again, Remember, the Job of a Leader, is more than Repairing Heart Valves or Car Engines.

Leaders Take care of the Whole Tribe; All Needs: Mind, Body, And 'Soul' (Emotional Intelligences and the such)

Voila: Trump, The Worst Leader the United States has ever seen; empirically Measurable as such;
And Growing More Evident Each Day in a Crisis That Requires Human Empathy for the Good of the Entire Tribe.

In the 'Olden Days', When Human Empathy Grew (Feelings) More as 'Flowers than Thorns on a Rose Vine'; 'the
Dude' would have been Pushed off 'a Cliff'; in Lieu of No Other Way of Getting Rid of the 'Human Virus' in Leadership.

Emotional Intelligence is the Intelligence That Has Helped Humans Survive the Most In Social Cooperation.

^^^
This is What Science Says Is True on this Matter of Fact; For Most Folks It's Just Frigging Common Sense (Feelings).

Someone with 'Empty Cold Eyes' Like Elon Musk Might Take You To Mars;
But On the Other Hand, He May Have no Clue what it means to Leave Your Heart In SanFrancisco.

^^^
Generally Speaking Humans Who are Lacking Emotional Intelligence, Will not Understand the Metaphor above.

And With No Heart at All; Like a 'Spoiled Brat' With No 'Soul'; He Might Open Up Your Work Place; even
if it means a Certain Percentage of Folks Will Likely Die With a Disease that he only sees as Collateral Damage;
But Of Course, Seeing Humans As Tools; Only Cogs in Machines, To Get Whatever Job He Wants Done Next.

'He' Makes a Better Engineer than Leader of Anything;

Aside Note: This is another one of my many, many, many Special Interests;
The Average Human Being 'these days' has the Attention Span Literally of Less than A Gold Fish Twitter Breath.

This is the way i learn, and continue to improve my Fuller Human Epigenetic Potential; Blue Whale Style.

Much too Big For one Comment, So the rest in the Next Comment:

Do Scroll By If 'You can't Hold Your Breath' this Long...

And to Even Be More Clear this Is Just my Style of Dry Humor too based in fact;
some folks get it; and some folks likely never will; but change is possible.


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12 May 2020, 9:22 am

Second Part of Comment:

Of Course Bill Gates and Steve Jobs; Are Well Documented
with similar Work-Place Leader Challenges.

Different Strokes for Different Folks.

Life or Death Consequences too;
If the Wrong People are in the Jobs they are not 'overall' 'fit' to do.

For Trump, A Friend Is a Tool That Never Fails Him.

For Me i Feel the Same About A Dentist or a Surgeon; but surely not a Close Friend;
As i understand What Human Means; Ups and Downs; Strikes And Gutter Balls As the
Bowling Ball Turns; Generally Speaking for Humanity, overall at least; Bowling Alone S88KS.

Trump And Elon Musk Have That In Common; They Love Bowling Alone as Long as they Get Applause;
Generally Speaking of course; only from what i've observed of the Spectrum of their Human Behaviors and
Non-Verbal Language; and the such.

Most Mental Illness, yes, generally speaking; Roots in Deficits of Emotional Regulation; And Poor Integration of Senses.

Human Emotions and Senses Are Not Easily A Repeatable Measurable Experiment that we can Observe and Replicate;
No Duh; Of course not; As Humans Have an Inner World that does not necessarily reflect in any Observable Way Now,
by others who surround them.

Physician Heal Thyself;
Some Folks Cure their Internal Ills and some folks do not;
Recognizing the Benefits of Other ways of Feeling the World
Is surely a way to Make, Break, Or Never Find a Human 'Soul' Now.

For some of us, it's obvious what folks are Missing.
Others of Us Don't Have a Clue 'in Hell' what is Wrong.

Generally, in the Deep South and Other
Desert Scarcity Tribal Religion Places (Midwest, Middle East, Etc.); Emotions in Men
Are Impoverished as 'Those Flowers' are never fully 'Gardened'; As Empathy Gets in the
Way of Killing if Necessary, to Gain Subsistence Competing in Places of Scarcity for Survival;
Brutally Slaughtering Animals With Feelings too; Back On the 'Farm Boy', 'Good Old Boy' Places too.

Voila, in General, Another Stereotype (overall): the Base of 'Trump' 'Voters' for the Last 12,000 or so Years;
Since the 'Advent of Agrarian Societies'; Let's Push that back even farther in Some ways to Nomadic Herders,
40,000 Years or so too; Bonobos are Still More Love Advanced; They Generally Speaking Love That Way Together
In a 'Wood Stock' That doesn't Even Need Any Big Bands or Illegal Substances to Get the Job of Love done each
and every day; again, in Peace And Harmony; without Even any Coke, New Coke, Or Diet Pepsi to Lift them up
And In And Out of Tribe Joy; Yes, Making Love each and every day 'Simply' Does the Trick and Treat of Life
in Survive and Naked Thrive.

Who Made Who;
To Be or Not to Be;
Those are two Questions and Many More;
Where some of us see 'both answers' or do not;
Generally Speaking, a Great 'Pre-Dictator' of who
votes for who in 'Whoville' on 'Top of {the Mountain}'.
Hint: The Place Where Everyone is the Grinch, Yet to Be ReBorn or First Born With a Bigger Heart.

^^^

Note: almost no one here, will understand the Metaphor Above;
Except for maybe 'AC/DC' and Other Folks Who Spend a Life of Art
And Emotional Intelligence As Life Paramount; Other than 'Book Learning';
Dentistry, And Surgery; And the such; Generally Speaking of course, Use it or lose counts in all stuff life.


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12 May 2020, 9:41 am

It seems I must clarify what _I_ mean by the definition of a psychopath. And my definition, term or use of words may be wrong. But the people I want locked up in labor camps are not autistics, schizophrenics etc.

The ones who should be locked away in labor camps, are "people" who enjoys to intentionally cause harm - physical or psychological - to an unoffending/blameless/innocent victim.

It could be anything from a criminal act (violence, murder) to non-criminal acts (bullying).
What matters to me is not the actual crime.

What matters to me is that these "people" are worthless beings, who deserves no rights, because they enjoy
knowing when innocent victims don't feel well.

A murderer who killed his/her caregiver, because he/she was scared of a monster and hallucinated, is way, way, WAY worth more to society, than any psychopath, regardless of its (the psychopath's) criminal record.



Last edited by thinkinginpictures on 12 May 2020, 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

magz
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12 May 2020, 9:44 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
It seems I must clarify what _I_ mean by the definition of a psychopath. And my definition, term or use of words may be wrong. But the people I want locked up in labor camps are not autistics, schizophrenics etc.

The ones who should be locked away in labor camps, are "people" who enjoys to intentionally cause harm - physical or psychological - to a unoffending/blameless/innocent victim.

It could be anything from a criminal act (violence, murder) to non-criminal acts (bullying).
What matters to me is not the actual crime.

What matters to me is that these "people" are worthless beings, who deserves no rights, because they enjoy
knowing when innocent victims don't feel well.

A murderer who killed his/her caregiver, because he/she was scared of a monster and hallucinated, is way, way, WAY worth more to society, than any psychopath, regardless of its (the psychopath's) criminal record.

And you believe it can be determined with a brain scan?


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12 May 2020, 9:47 am

magz wrote:
And you believe it can be determined with a brain scan?


I thought it could. If it can, it definitely should be tried on large-scale.



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12 May 2020, 9:48 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
It seems I must clarify what _I_ mean by the definition of a psychopath. And my definition, term or use of words may be wrong. But the people I want locked up in labor camps are not autistics, schizophrenics etc.

The ones who should be locked away in labor camps, are "people" who enjoys to intentionally cause harm - physical or psychological - to an unoffending/blameless/innocent victim.

It could be anything from a criminal act (violence, murder) to non-criminal acts (bullying).
What matters to me is not the actual crime.

What matters to me is that these "people" are worthless beings, who deserves no rights, because they enjoy
knowing when innocent victims don't feel well.

A murderer who killed his/her caregiver, because he/she was scared of a monster and hallucinated, is way, way, WAY worth more to society, than any psychopath, regardless of its (the psychopath's) criminal record.


Science Already Shows
the Brain Scan Thingie Will Not Work;
Case Closed; Jury out; We Have Prisons For this other Kinda thingie.
Environment is not Going Away; and Environment Will Always Potentially Make a Change.


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12 May 2020, 9:53 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
magz wrote:
And you believe it can be determined with a brain scan?

I thought it could. If it can, it definitely should be tried on large-scale.

It can't.
While primary psychopathy is a neurological trait, far from everyone possessing it becomes what you describe.


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12 May 2020, 10:20 am



Back to the Asperger's Thingie and Hans Asperger's Original 'Autistic Psychopathy' That
Eventually Was Transformed into Asperger's Syndrome by the Likes of the 'Gillberg Criteria';
And How the United States with the DSMIV Changed it into Basically 'Autism Lite' And Now
We Have even More of a Generally Speaking Coverall List of Behavioral Deficits to Capture the Entire
Label of Autism Spectrum Disorders;

More to the Point of Longitudinal Case Studies
of Hans Asperger's Patients; Some of which did have
Verbal Delays in Speaking that the Gillberg Criteria Kept;
And According to Michelle Dawson with Studies of Children
With Or Without Verbal Delays in Speaking; What She Found In Her Research
is that Children With Delays in Speaking often Excelled Later with Fluid Intelligence
Over the Kind of Crystalized Intelligence More Specific to Standard IQ Tests then and now.

When Hans Asperger's 'Autistic Psychopathy' Patients Were Assessed Later in Age; Researchers found
that many excelled in Niche's they Found and were actually doing better than their Peers in Success in life.

Smiles;
Can You
Spell me; And Sure
'Vermont Savant' up there
as i continue to Observe his
Strides in Human Potential too;
In the Last 9 Years and 6 Months of Observing him here;
Interestingly, Most everyone else Presents the same level
of Human Verbal Intelligence; Really, i find it Fascinating.

i didn't speak until 4;
i make the Gillberg Grade of Asperger's
Syndrome and My Psychiatrist eventually received
enough Knowledge from me to appropriately diagnose me
with Asperger's Syndrome until the DSM5 Generalized the Disorder even more;
Where it is all diluted in one Soup of what actually is not the same thing at all.
It doesn't matter where i go; i eventually become the Teacher; for those who are humble enough to wanna learn.

Whether or not Someone Excels in Fluid Intelligence in Life Literally does or does not make an Entirely Different Human
Being From What Will Be Empirically Measured by Science in Terms of Behavior and Actual Real Life Effective Results.

Stuff Like Financially Independent
By Middle Age; Named A Legend by
the Metro Audience Just for a Hobby one
Does for fun by the point of one Year of effort from age 53 to 54.
Sure; the list goes on, Strongest Legs; Leg Pressing in the Military Gym at close to 60
in terms of what is still on YouTube at a 90 Degree Angle, 1340 Pounds Very Slowly in 100 Seconds Duration.
Now i realize most no one gives a Cr8p in this Discussion about what i am saying here; but i've received enough PM's
From Parents of Children Similar to me as a non-verbal Child at age 4; where my Story IN FACT gives them at least a
bit of hope
that one
day their
Child we be named
a Legend and the 'Adult Child'
Will Say; So what; i'm just having fun living;
No Different Really Than 'Forrest Gump; the
Fictional Character who sort of portrayed me;
Isn't that the Key; Having fun living NoW; or what
Kind of Kool Aid is the rest of Humanity drinking.
i don't Need Any Applause for Writing an 8 MiLLioN
Word Epic Longest Long Form Poem Bible in the History
of Humankind; 5 times over the Effort of Second place in
India at 1.8 MiLLioN Words; i don't need any applause for
Public Dancing Now 13,144 Miles in the Same 80 Months;
But By God i Prove with Irrefutable Evidence that Life WILL GET BETTER
AT LEAST for some folks who do not just stick with the Labels they are given in life.

On top of that; every thing i do, every step, every breath i'm killing the Fear and the Hate with simple Bliss
of Flow in Ecstasy of Joy; It's Not Up or Down; It's a River that Eternally Breathes Free Meandering to the
'Good Place' always now.
But Again, now, i realize where i am
Now; i have NO difficulty seeing This NoW;
Just another 3 Letter Word Joy God Who Breathes
me and Potentially 'You' a little bit more too FOR REAL NOW


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12 May 2020, 10:24 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
It seems I must clarify what _I_ mean by the definition of a psychopath. And my definition, term or use of words may be wrong. But the people I want locked up in labor camps are not autistics, schizophrenics etc.

The ones who should be locked away in labor camps, are "people" who enjoys to intentionally cause harm - physical or psychological - to an unoffending/blameless/innocent victim.

It could be anything from a criminal act (violence, murder) to non-criminal acts (bullying).
What matters to me is not the actual crime.

What matters to me is that these "people" are worthless beings, who deserves no rights, because they enjoy
knowing when innocent victims don't feel well.

A murderer who killed his/her caregiver, because he/she was scared of a monster and hallucinated, is way, way, WAY worth more to society, than any psychopath, regardless of its (the psychopath's) criminal record.


But there was a time when asocials and schizoids were locked up,maybe we shouldn't judge.

There was a time when extreme withdrawnness was viewed as psychopathy,maybe we shouldn't judge.

That's all I'm saying :|


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12 May 2020, 10:41 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
If psychopathy can be tested through brain scan of any kind, why don't we ask every person aged 18 to undergo a compulsory brain test for psychopathy?

If positive, the individual should be incarcerated for life, regardless of criminal record - or even lack thereof.


No, that sounds like a horrific violation of civil rights that would need stopped any any means necessary.


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12 May 2020, 10:43 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
It seems I must clarify what _I_ mean by the definition of a psychopath. And my definition, term or use of words may be wrong. But the people I want locked up in labor camps are not autistics, schizophrenics etc.

The ones who should be locked away in labor camps, are "people" who enjoys to intentionally cause harm - physical or psychological - to an unoffending/blameless/innocent victim.

It could be anything from a criminal act (violence, murder) to non-criminal acts (bullying).
What matters to me is not the actual crime.

What matters to me is that these "people" are worthless beings, who deserves no rights, because they enjoy
knowing when innocent victims don't feel well.

A murderer who killed his/her caregiver, because he/she was scared of a monster and hallucinated, is way, way, WAY worth more to society, than any psychopath, regardless of its (the psychopath's) criminal record.



Any time you're advocating for rounding up a portion of the population and denying them basic civil liberties for the rest of their lives with no means of appeal, not for something they've done but because of something innate, you're not the good guy.


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12 May 2020, 11:06 am

There seems to be some different conclusions as to what is sociopath or a psychopath,from what I've read.

What seems to come is that a psychopath is more normal in presentation to the world.

Where as sociopaths have more trouble dealing with everyday life and have more issues with rage and anger.And present to the world as more disfuctional.

It still seems like a splitting of samantic hairs and it doesn't feel like these definitions will hold true in 30 years and psychology will redefine them.


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