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Tomatoes
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02 Jun 2020, 2:35 pm

Fnord wrote:
G^D does not write music, people do -- mortal, human people.



Right, music is/are the words of sounds.



aghogday
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02 Jun 2020, 5:20 pm

Greatshield17 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
... It's a song written by God Himself...
Evidence, please?

It's very suspicious that the first written account occurred over one-hundred years after the alleged event.

Well let's see what the scientist have discovered in their research of the tilma. Perhaps the most noteworthy and reliable research done on the tilma, is by Dr. Philip Callahan, biophysicist, USDA entomologist, and yes, NASA consultant. His research, using infrared light, found that the image was done simultaneously, with no underdrawings, no corrections, and no brushstrokes.

Now some features of the tilma have been added later on, and oddly enough those are the only parts of the image that show signs deterioration, the parts that are believed to be part of the original are still intact. (Keep in mind that this is a tilma, made out of cactus fibre, things made cactus fibre don't last very long, several replicas of the tilma have been made, and all them have long-since deteriorated; only the original is still around, centuries later.) Now I can't remember whether or not the stars were added on to the tilma, but if they were added on, allegedly a century after the miracle occurred, that, in and of itself is miraculous, because the stars line-up perfectly with the position of the stars in the sky on the exact date that the miracle occurred. To apply that kind of knowledge, when that kind of astronomy wouldn't be re-discovered until centuries later, I find that hard to believe. (Also on a simple common sensical level, wouldn't it be odd for the Franciscan priests to come out and say, "Oh, and by the way, a century ago there was this miracle that occurred to this Aztec guy, here's his tilma with the miraculous image on it, sorry you didn't here about this until now?" Wouldn't it make more sense, if the Franciscans were to make this up, to just come out and say, "Okay this just happened a few days ago, Our Lady appeared to this Aztec guy, here's his tilma with a miraculous image on it?")

These are just a few miraculous aspects of the tilma by the way, but I'll just leave it here for now.




"Special Interest Alert": Proceed With 'Caution'; Or Scroll By as Fast as You Will..;)

'This' Is Another one of 'those' 'Urban and Desert' Legends; Spreading Around
On Facebook That is easy enough to Prove; Yes, Disprove with One Stroke of Snopes.

And on Top of that; This 'Tilma' Representation of Mary Is Basically A 'Copy-Cat' Version of
Other Renaissance European Depictions of Mary; as Leonardo DaVinci, Of course, Painted
'Jesus' as A European Looking Man in A Day Where Beards And Long Hair Were Not Allowed;
Where Leonardo Sported A 'Hipster' Look Back Then; And Of Course Painted a Last Supper Jesus
That We So Often See Copied Even by Young Prodigies These Days Who Of Course Have Never Really
Seen 'European' Jesus either; as Yes; all the folks REALLY concerned Were From the Middle East Region;
Around 5 Feet Tall For Men and somewhere much Closer to 100 Pounds Soaking Wet; Whenever
it did Rain then.
It's Also Worth Noting:

"Does not even nature itself teach you that
if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?"

By:

So Called Paul And

1 Corinthians 11:14

Yes, By Paul, The 'Reformed Saul the Christian Hater Who Actually Said He Saw Jesus in A Vision After
Falling Down on a Road to Damascus; Whatever it takes to make a living; or have A Social Role as 'they' say.
Anyway; It was also considered a Disgrace during the Days When 'Jesus' Lived as Galilean Semite; Again,
Short; About Five-Foot-One; Around One-Hundred-Ten-Pounds; Shortly Cropped Dark Thick Curly Hair;
Rugged And Weathered too; Brown Eyes; Surely Not a Pretty Boy, Very Androgynous, Tall, Slender And
European Light Eyes Colored too; Oh Lord, How People Will Copy Stuff that wasn't the Original Art After All
is Said and Done; But Anyway; It sure does quickly Offer a Clue of What Is Real and What is NOT now and then.

Hehe; Yeah; Leonardo Painted me too; but of course i look nothing Like a "Galilean Semite", either;
Remember, the First Superman Movie in the Modern Series When They Showed 'Him' at age 33; Oh God Yes,
As of course even the Director of the Movie Said it was actually Based on the Jesus Story; Yes, With A Beard.
I'm Not Really 'The Man of Steel' Either; But I Did Recently Bend Back A Metal Support on a Leg Press Machine
Like a Pretzel; Photographs of Evidence Available upon Demand; No Different really than me Leg Pressing 1340
Pounds on YouTube, 12 Reps in 100 Seconds at Close to 60 Years-Old Now at a 90 Degree Angle; as yep; those
Running Days took a bit of a toll on my only Human Knees; but you do what you can and will do now; Best We
can and will; at best of course. Anyway That Was My Senior College Year Earning 3 Degrees Below at 22, Of
course in 'this Picture' As usual Ahead in the Race; i did have to play some Catch-up; And Yes, i obviously Did;
Anyway that Was 70 Pounds Ago; When i was 3 Times Weaker in Leg Strength; Don't Believe You Will Get Weaker;
Do the Work to make it Happen; Works for me at least, No Matter Numbers of Age; With Appropriate Equipment.

Considering that Modern Quantum Mechanics Sports 'Harmonic Super String Theories' that Suggest that the Underlying 'Order/Art' of Reality At Core Is 'Music' in this Way; And if one Truly Considers this God Feature as Alpha Thru Omega
All, Yes even more than a Five Foot Tall Small Brown Dude; Nope it's not much of a stretch At All to Hear 'God's Music' In All Stuff Existence From A to Z and More; A Piano is an Extension of Our Vocal Chords With Strings And Hammers of
Heart Beat in Percussion True; Lovely HeART Instrument, A Piano Surely Is; Such a Voice of Real God it Brings so True.

"Superstring theory, a hypothetical attempt to unite the fundamental forces—the gravitational, electroweak and strong forces—applies the idea of harmonics on a far smaller scale than atomic physics, on the order of the Planck length, about 10 -35 meters (compared to about 10 -10 meters for atoms). It replaces point particles with vibrating strands of energy. Various modes of vibration determine the particles’ properties, explaining the diversity of the particle zoo through the complexity of the oscillations and the geometry of the higher-dimensional space in which they are embedded."

Anyway, Back To The Subject of Mary And Jesus; It's Not Surprising that the 'Guardian's of the Galaxy' Movie Series
is Also Based on the General 'Jesus Story' too; So, What is this General Jesus Story and This Divine Mother Story;
Yes, of Course Archetypes of Heroes; Both in the Male And Female Divine Masculine And Feminine too;
My God; This Means that "Isaiah 53" is basically A Vanilla Template for the Masculine Hero Story too;
Yes; It's not the Story That is Actually King or Queen; it is the Essence of Our Humanity Brought to Book;
As Yes, of course Human Archetypes Become Visual Symbolic Representations of Organic Life; Yes, Us!
in Words
no
Less too.

Anyway; my Mama was
Surely Like a Combo of
Both Mary and Jesus to me;
But She Really Had no choice; cause my Father Left at 3.

After That; i Always Saw Something Much Larger as my Father; All of Nature (God) and me too.

It's Nice to be Humble Enough to Understand We Will All Lift Each Other Up or Worship 2 or 3 Idols.

My Mother Looked Nothing like a Galilean Semite, either; in Fact My Father's Mother (My Mother Helen, Meaning
Light Bringer, by the way) Said She Had A Glowing Fairest Skin on a Woman She Ever Saw then; Well Yeah; She Was
Dripping With Estrogen; Winning Best Figure in 11th and 12th Grade; Always my Hero; i guess that's why i've never
been that impressed with Story Book Mary and Jesus; some of are just lucky in Hell and Heaven Now. Is it any Surprise
i Danced 13,237 Miles in 81 Months in Public; and Wrote an 8.1 MiLLioN Epic Longest Form Poem Bible in 81 Months too:

Not Really, Even now at So Close to 60 on 6.6.20; The Globe is Bigger Than A Desert Patch of Dirt; i didn't REALLY even Get Started 'till 53 in the Summer of '13.

My Suggestion is Just Do 'John 14:12'; Yes, Just Do It; Find Your Own Mary; Settle Down and have a Hero too; or Become one; Whatever Works for You; Or You Can Worship Forms Instead of Essence; That Part is up to You; Don't Forget the Smaller Galilean Semite Parts, if so.

Image

Image

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/is-vi ... pe-living/

https://artsandculture.google.com/userg ... aB5av8qjKQ

https://www.popularmechanics.com/scienc ... 4/1282186/

https://www.cnn.com/2013/06/14/showbiz/ ... index.html

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/q ... and-music/


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http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick


Last edited by aghogday on 02 Jun 2020, 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Borromeo
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02 Jun 2020, 5:24 pm

Back to the topic image, that pattern literally looks like a player-piano roll--


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naturalplastic
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02 Jun 2020, 9:54 pm

This thing of finding music in a picture is not as unique as it sounds. For several years now there been such a thing as "protein music", and "DNA music" (and I don't mean the band that backed up Susan Vega in the Nineties). Scientists with music training have been finding analogs between the structure of the DNA sequence and the structure of music in order turn the the sequence of nucleotides in the DNA of particular genes into musical scores. In effect making it possible to "hear DNA". First it was done as a novel musical stunt, but now its often done to actually help read genomes - a mutation will stick out like a sour note. The folks who indulge in this don't generally credit the resulting "music" to "God". Just to evolution. But someone might view this "music in our genes" as being "composed by God". But on the other hand it shows how this Madonna portrait may not be so miraculous because -you can find composed melodies in a lot of unexpected places. So it could just be chance and wishful thinking to see this Madonna and her "music" as miraculous.


https://theconversation.com/us



roronoa79
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03 Jun 2020, 4:38 pm

Okay but if God is omnipresent in all of us, didn't God write all music? Although I guess free will means humans chose to do the writing themselves? I guess God wrote all birdsong if birds don't have free will? Maybe God wrote aleatoric music since it's based on randomness? There's a theological discussion in there somewhere.


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I guess I just wasn't made for these times.
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Δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν
Those in positions of power do what their power permits, while the weak have no choice but to accept it.

- Thucydides


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03 Jun 2020, 5:08 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
Okay but if God is omnipresent in all of us, didn't God write all music?...
That's just it; G^D isn't present in all of us.  Anyone who denies the Holy and Sovereign G^D in any way, shape, or form does not have G^D within them.  Same for those who worship or "venerate" anyone or anything created by G^D or crafted by mortals as equal to or above G^D.  While G^D may inspire or direct mortals to perform specific tasks, it it those mortals who actually perform those tasks.


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Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


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03 Jun 2020, 5:12 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
This thing of finding music in a picture is not as unique as it sounds...
Couple that with the human propensity toward pareidolia, and you have people "hearing godly music" in static and "seeing godly visions" under the influences of malnutrition, fatigue, and sickness -- all too common in primitive and impoverished cultures.


_________________
 
Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


Greatshield17
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Location: Columbia-Kootenay Region, British Columbia

03 Jun 2020, 9:19 pm

aghogday wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
... It's a song written by God Himself...
Evidence, please?

It's very suspicious that the first written account occurred over one-hundred years after the alleged event.

Well let's see what the scientist have discovered in their research of the tilma. Perhaps the most noteworthy and reliable research done on the tilma, is by Dr. Philip Callahan, biophysicist, USDA entomologist, and yes, NASA consultant. His research, using infrared light, found that the image was done simultaneously, with no underdrawings, no corrections, and no brushstrokes.

Now some features of the tilma have been added later on, and oddly enough those are the only parts of the image that show signs deterioration, the parts that are believed to be part of the original are still intact. (Keep in mind that this is a tilma, made out of cactus fibre, things made cactus fibre don't last very long, several replicas of the tilma have been made, and all them have long-since deteriorated; only the original is still around, centuries later.) Now I can't remember whether or not the stars were added on to the tilma, but if they were added on, allegedly a century after the miracle occurred, that, in and of itself is miraculous, because the stars line-up perfectly with the position of the stars in the sky on the exact date that the miracle occurred. To apply that kind of knowledge, when that kind of astronomy wouldn't be re-discovered until centuries later, I find that hard to believe. (Also on a simple common sensical level, wouldn't it be odd for the Franciscan priests to come out and say, "Oh, and by the way, a century ago there was this miracle that occurred to this Aztec guy, here's his tilma with the miraculous image on it, sorry you didn't here about this until now?" Wouldn't it make more sense, if the Franciscans were to make this up, to just come out and say, "Okay this just happened a few days ago, Our Lady appeared to this Aztec guy, here's his tilma with a miraculous image on it?")

These are just a few miraculous aspects of the tilma by the way, but I'll just leave it here for now.




"Special Interest Alert": Proceed With 'Caution'; Or Scroll By as Fast as You Will..;)

'This' Is Another one of 'those' 'Urban and Desert' Legends; Spreading Around
On Facebook That is easy enough to Prove; Yes, Disprove with One Stroke of Snopes.

And on Top of that; This 'Tilma' Representation of Mary Is Basically A 'Copy-Cat' Version of
Other Renaissance European Depictions of Mary; as Leonardo DaVinci, Of course, Painted
'Jesus' as A European Looking Man in A Day Where Beards And Long Hair Were Not Allowed;
Where Leonardo Sported A 'Hipster' Look Back Then; And Of Course Painted a Last Supper Jesus
That We So Often See Copied Even by Young Prodigies These Days Who Of Course Have Never Really
Seen 'European' Jesus either; as Yes; all the folks REALLY concerned Were From the Middle East Region;
Around 5 Feet Tall For Men and somewhere much Closer to 100 Pounds Soaking Wet; Whenever
it did Rain then.
It's Also Worth Noting:

"Does not even nature itself teach you that
if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?"

By:

So Called Paul And

1 Corinthians 11:14

Yes, By Paul, The 'Reformed Saul the Christian Hater Who Actually Said He Saw Jesus in A Vision After
Falling Down on a Road to Damascus; Whatever it takes to make a living; or have A Social Role as 'they' say.
Anyway; It was also considered a Disgrace during the Days When 'Jesus' Lived as Galilean Semite; Again,
Short; About Five-Foot-One; Around One-Hundred-Ten-Pounds; Shortly Cropped Dark Thick Curly Hair;
Rugged And Weathered too; Brown Eyes; Surely Not a Pretty Boy, Very Androgynous, Tall, Slender And
European Light Eyes Colored too; Oh Lord, How People Will Copy Stuff that wasn't the Original Art After All
is Said and Done; But Anyway; It sure does quickly Offer a Clue of What Is Real and What is NOT now and then.

Hehe; Yeah; Leonardo Painted me too; but of course i look nothing Like a "Galilean Semite", either;
Remember, the First Superman Movie in the Modern Series When They Showed 'Him' at age 33; Oh God Yes,
As of course even the Director of the Movie Said it was actually Based on the Jesus Story; Yes, With A Beard.
I'm Not Really 'The Man of Steel' Either; But I Did Recently Bend Back A Metal Support on a Leg Press Machine
Like a Pretzel; Photographs of Evidence Available upon Demand; No Different really than me Leg Pressing 1340
Pounds on YouTube, 12 Reps in 100 Seconds at Close to 60 Years-Old Now at a 90 Degree Angle; as yep; those
Running Days took a bit of a toll on my only Human Knees; but you do what you can and will do now; Best We
can and will; at best of course. Anyway That Was My Senior College Year Earning 3 Degrees Below at 22, Of
course in 'this Picture' As usual Ahead in the Race; i did have to play some Catch-up; And Yes, i obviously Did;
Anyway that Was 70 Pounds Ago; When i was 3 Times Weaker in Leg Strength; Don't Believe You Will Get Weaker;
Do the Work to make it Happen; Works for me at least, No Matter Numbers of Age; With Appropriate Equipment.

Considering that Modern Quantum Mechanics Sports 'Harmonic Super String Theories' that Suggest that the Underlying 'Order/Art' of Reality At Core Is 'Music' in this Way; And if one Truly Considers this God Feature as Alpha Thru Omega
All, Yes even more than a Five Foot Tall Small Brown Dude; Nope it's not much of a stretch At All to Hear 'God's Music' In All Stuff Existence From A to Z and More; A Piano is an Extension of Our Vocal Chords With Strings And Hammers of
Heart Beat in Percussion True; Lovely HeART Instrument, A Piano Surely Is; Such a Voice of Real God it Brings so True.

"Superstring theory, a hypothetical attempt to unite the fundamental forces—the gravitational, electroweak and strong forces—applies the idea of harmonics on a far smaller scale than atomic physics, on the order of the Planck length, about 10 -35 meters (compared to about 10 -10 meters for atoms). It replaces point particles with vibrating strands of energy. Various modes of vibration determine the particles’ properties, explaining the diversity of the particle zoo through the complexity of the oscillations and the geometry of the higher-dimensional space in which they are embedded."

Anyway, Back To The Subject of Mary And Jesus; It's Not Surprising that the 'Guardian's of the Galaxy' Movie Series
is Also Based on the General 'Jesus Story' too; So, What is this General Jesus Story and This Divine Mother Story;
Yes, of Course Archetypes of Heroes; Both in the Male And Female Divine Masculine And Feminine too;
My God; This Means that "Isaiah 53" is basically A Vanilla Template for the Masculine Hero Story too;
Yes; It's not the Story That is Actually King or Queen; it is the Essence of Our Humanity Brought to Book;
As Yes, of course Human Archetypes Become Visual Symbolic Representations of Organic Life; Yes, Us!
in Words
no
Less too.

Anyway; my Mama was
Surely Like a Combo of
Both Mary and Jesus to me;
But She Really Had no choice; cause my Father Left at 3.

After That; i Always Saw Something Much Larger as my Father; All of Nature (God) and me too.

It's Nice to be Humble Enough to Understand We Will All Lift Each Other Up or Worship 2 or 3 Idols.

My Mother Looked Nothing like a Galilean Semite, either; in Fact My Father's Mother (My Mother Helen, Meaning
Light Bringer, by the way) Said She Had A Glowing Fairest Skin on a Woman She Ever Saw then; Well Yeah; She Was
Dripping With Estrogen; Winning Best Figure in 11th and 12th Grade; Always my Hero; i guess that's why i've never
been that impressed with Story Book Mary and Jesus; some of are just lucky in Hell and Heaven Now. Is it any Surprise
i Danced 13,237 Miles in 81 Months in Public; and Wrote an 8.1 MiLLioN Epic Longest Form Poem Bible in 81 Months too:

Not Really, Even now at So Close to 60 on 6.6.20; The Globe is Bigger Than A Desert Patch of Dirt; i didn't REALLY even Get Started 'till 53 in the Summer of '13.

My Suggestion is Just Do 'John 14:12'; Yes, Just Do It; Find Your Own Mary; Settle Down and have a Hero too; or Become one; Whatever Works for You; Or You Can Worship Forms Instead of Essence; That Part is up to You; Don't Forget the Smaller Galilean Semite Parts, if so.

Image

Image

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/is-vi ... pe-living/

https://artsandculture.google.com/userg ... aB5av8qjKQ

https://www.popularmechanics.com/scienc ... 4/1282186/

https://www.cnn.com/2013/06/14/showbiz/ ... index.html

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/q ... and-music/

No, the Snopes article does not disprove the Guadalupe Miracle.

The Snopes article debunks one myth regarding the miraculous tilma that's it. The article does goes on (for some reason) to try and disprove the miracle, but it fails, Callahan's findings still stand. Yes, Callahan didn't get to perform every test he would've liked to, but just because he didn't get to do every test he would've liked, doesn't mean we can then dismiss his findings. Yes, other tests have shown some things here and there, but as I've mentioned above, the image has been modified over the years in variety of ways, in could easily be the case that the what the researchers were seeing were modifications, or the signs of past modifications done to the image.

Keep in mind, as I've said before, Callahan's study is just one of many, there are plenty of other studies out there which have found and/or confirmed miraculous properties present on the tilma; my personal favourite are the findings done by Luis Martinez Negrete. But I'm not here to debate the Guadalupe miracle, that's not the purpose of this thread, look up Luis Martinez Negrete when you have the time, but keep in mind most of the search results will come up in Spanish.

In regards Christ's hair, the standards of what's considered long or short hair by modern standards wasn't the same as the standards long and short hair in antiquity. Barber prices were much more expensive in antiquity than they are now, as barbering required much more skill because of the lack technology available at the time. The short hair that the Caesars bore wasn't just a show of their manliness, it was a show of their wealth and status. Christ and His Apostles didn't have access to the barbers that the Caesars had access to so their hair was considerably longer, but that hair length was by no means considered "long" by the standards of those times.


_________________
Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."


Greatshield17
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Joined: 14 Sep 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia-Kootenay Region, British Columbia

03 Jun 2020, 9:25 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
This thing of finding music in a picture is not as unique as it sounds. For several years now there been such a thing as "protein music", and "DNA music" (and I don't mean the band that backed up Susan Vega in the Nineties). Scientists with music training have been finding analogs between the structure of the DNA sequence and the structure of music in order turn the the sequence of nucleotides in the DNA of particular genes into musical scores. In effect making it possible to "hear DNA". First it was done as a novel musical stunt, but now its often done to actually help read genomes - a mutation will stick out like a sour note. The folks who indulge in this don't generally credit the resulting "music" to "God". Just to evolution. But someone might view this "music in our genes" as being "composed by God". But on the other hand it shows how this Madonna portrait may not be so miraculous because -you can find composed melodies in a lot of unexpected places. So it could just be chance and wishful thinking to see this Madonna and her "music" as miraculous.


https://theconversation.com/us

It's not the music's presence that make it miraculous but what the music is present on, the miraculous tilma. Granted, as was mentioned above, the stars may have been added on later, but not too later as the stars on the tilma appear in the exact alignment they appeared in the sky on the exact date of the miracle, and that's something that doesn't happen in centuries.
Image


_________________
Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."


aghogday
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Age: 60
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Posts: 9,123

03 Jun 2020, 9:57 pm

Greatshield17 wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
... It's a song written by God Himself...
Evidence, please?

It's very suspicious that the first written account occurred over one-hundred years after the alleged event.

Well let's see what the scientist have discovered in their research of the tilma. Perhaps the most noteworthy and reliable research done on the tilma, is by Dr. Philip Callahan, biophysicist, USDA entomologist, and yes, NASA consultant. His research, using infrared light, found that the image was done simultaneously, with no underdrawings, no corrections, and no brushstrokes.

Now some features of the tilma have been added later on, and oddly enough those are the only parts of the image that show signs deterioration, the parts that are believed to be part of the original are still intact. (Keep in mind that this is a tilma, made out of cactus fibre, things made cactus fibre don't last very long, several replicas of the tilma have been made, and all them have long-since deteriorated; only the original is still around, centuries later.) Now I can't remember whether or not the stars were added on to the tilma, but if they were added on, allegedly a century after the miracle occurred, that, in and of itself is miraculous, because the stars line-up perfectly with the position of the stars in the sky on the exact date that the miracle occurred. To apply that kind of knowledge, when that kind of astronomy wouldn't be re-discovered until centuries later, I find that hard to believe. (Also on a simple common sensical level, wouldn't it be odd for the Franciscan priests to come out and say, "Oh, and by the way, a century ago there was this miracle that occurred to this Aztec guy, here's his tilma with the miraculous image on it, sorry you didn't here about this until now?" Wouldn't it make more sense, if the Franciscans were to make this up, to just come out and say, "Okay this just happened a few days ago, Our Lady appeared to this Aztec guy, here's his tilma with a miraculous image on it?")

These are just a few miraculous aspects of the tilma by the way, but I'll just leave it here for now.




"Special Interest Alert": Proceed With 'Caution'; Or Scroll By as Fast as You Will..;)

'This' Is Another one of 'those' 'Urban and Desert' Legends; Spreading Around
On Facebook That is easy enough to Prove; Yes, Disprove with One Stroke of Snopes.

And on Top of that; This 'Tilma' Representation of Mary Is Basically A 'Copy-Cat' Version of
Other Renaissance European Depictions of Mary; as Leonardo DaVinci, Of course, Painted
'Jesus' as A European Looking Man in A Day Where Beards And Long Hair Were Not Allowed;
Where Leonardo Sported A 'Hipster' Look Back Then; And Of Course Painted a Last Supper Jesus
That We So Often See Copied Even by Young Prodigies These Days Who Of Course Have Never Really
Seen 'European' Jesus either; as Yes; all the folks REALLY concerned Were From the Middle East Region;
Around 5 Feet Tall For Men and somewhere much Closer to 100 Pounds Soaking Wet; Whenever
it did Rain then.
It's Also Worth Noting:

"Does not even nature itself teach you that
if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?"

By:

So Called Paul And

1 Corinthians 11:14

Yes, By Paul, The 'Reformed Saul the Christian Hater Who Actually Said He Saw Jesus in A Vision After
Falling Down on a Road to Damascus; Whatever it takes to make a living; or have A Social Role as 'they' say.
Anyway; It was also considered a Disgrace during the Days When 'Jesus' Lived as Galilean Semite; Again,
Short; About Five-Foot-One; Around One-Hundred-Ten-Pounds; Shortly Cropped Dark Thick Curly Hair;
Rugged And Weathered too; Brown Eyes; Surely Not a Pretty Boy, Very Androgynous, Tall, Slender And
European Light Eyes Colored too; Oh Lord, How People Will Copy Stuff that wasn't the Original Art After All
is Said and Done; But Anyway; It sure does quickly Offer a Clue of What Is Real and What is NOT now and then.

Hehe; Yeah; Leonardo Painted me too; but of course i look nothing Like a "Galilean Semite", either;
Remember, the First Superman Movie in the Modern Series When They Showed 'Him' at age 33; Oh God Yes,
As of course even the Director of the Movie Said it was actually Based on the Jesus Story; Yes, With A Beard.
I'm Not Really 'The Man of Steel' Either; But I Did Recently Bend Back A Metal Support on a Leg Press Machine
Like a Pretzel; Photographs of Evidence Available upon Demand; No Different really than me Leg Pressing 1340
Pounds on YouTube, 12 Reps in 100 Seconds at Close to 60 Years-Old Now at a 90 Degree Angle; as yep; those
Running Days took a bit of a toll on my only Human Knees; but you do what you can and will do now; Best We
can and will; at best of course. Anyway That Was My Senior College Year Earning 3 Degrees Below at 22, Of
course in 'this Picture' As usual Ahead in the Race; i did have to play some Catch-up; And Yes, i obviously Did;
Anyway that Was 70 Pounds Ago; When i was 3 Times Weaker in Leg Strength; Don't Believe You Will Get Weaker;
Do the Work to make it Happen; Works for me at least, No Matter Numbers of Age; With Appropriate Equipment.

Considering that Modern Quantum Mechanics Sports 'Harmonic Super String Theories' that Suggest that the Underlying 'Order/Art' of Reality At Core Is 'Music' in this Way; And if one Truly Considers this God Feature as Alpha Thru Omega
All, Yes even more than a Five Foot Tall Small Brown Dude; Nope it's not much of a stretch At All to Hear 'God's Music' In All Stuff Existence From A to Z and More; A Piano is an Extension of Our Vocal Chords With Strings And Hammers of
Heart Beat in Percussion True; Lovely HeART Instrument, A Piano Surely Is; Such a Voice of Real God it Brings so True.

"Superstring theory, a hypothetical attempt to unite the fundamental forces—the gravitational, electroweak and strong forces—applies the idea of harmonics on a far smaller scale than atomic physics, on the order of the Planck length, about 10 -35 meters (compared to about 10 -10 meters for atoms). It replaces point particles with vibrating strands of energy. Various modes of vibration determine the particles’ properties, explaining the diversity of the particle zoo through the complexity of the oscillations and the geometry of the higher-dimensional space in which they are embedded."

Anyway, Back To The Subject of Mary And Jesus; It's Not Surprising that the 'Guardian's of the Galaxy' Movie Series
is Also Based on the General 'Jesus Story' too; So, What is this General Jesus Story and This Divine Mother Story;
Yes, of Course Archetypes of Heroes; Both in the Male And Female Divine Masculine And Feminine too;
My God; This Means that "Isaiah 53" is basically A Vanilla Template for the Masculine Hero Story too;
Yes; It's not the Story That is Actually King or Queen; it is the Essence of Our Humanity Brought to Book;
As Yes, of course Human Archetypes Become Visual Symbolic Representations of Organic Life; Yes, Us!
in Words
no
Less too.

Anyway; my Mama was
Surely Like a Combo of
Both Mary and Jesus to me;
But She Really Had no choice; cause my Father Left at 3.

After That; i Always Saw Something Much Larger as my Father; All of Nature (God) and me too.

It's Nice to be Humble Enough to Understand We Will All Lift Each Other Up or Worship 2 or 3 Idols.

My Mother Looked Nothing like a Galilean Semite, either; in Fact My Father's Mother (My Mother Helen, Meaning
Light Bringer, by the way) Said She Had A Glowing Fairest Skin on a Woman She Ever Saw then; Well Yeah; She Was
Dripping With Estrogen; Winning Best Figure in 11th and 12th Grade; Always my Hero; i guess that's why i've never
been that impressed with Story Book Mary and Jesus; some of are just lucky in Hell and Heaven Now. Is it any Surprise
i Danced 13,237 Miles in 81 Months in Public; and Wrote an 8.1 MiLLioN Epic Longest Form Poem Bible in 81 Months too:

Not Really, Even now at So Close to 60 on 6.6.20; The Globe is Bigger Than A Desert Patch of Dirt; i didn't REALLY even Get Started 'till 53 in the Summer of '13.

My Suggestion is Just Do 'John 14:12'; Yes, Just Do It; Find Your Own Mary; Settle Down and have a Hero too; or Become one; Whatever Works for You; Or You Can Worship Forms Instead of Essence; That Part is up to You; Don't Forget the Smaller Galilean Semite Parts, if so.

Image

Image

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/is-vi ... pe-living/

https://artsandculture.google.com/userg ... aB5av8qjKQ

https://www.popularmechanics.com/scienc ... 4/1282186/

https://www.cnn.com/2013/06/14/showbiz/ ... index.html

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/q ... and-music/

No, the Snopes article does not disprove the Guadalupe Miracle.

The Snopes article debunks one myth regarding the miraculous tilma that's it. The article does goes on (for some reason) to try and disprove the miracle, but it fails, Callahan's findings still stand. Yes, Callahan didn't get to perform every test he would've liked to, but just because he didn't get to do every test he would've liked, doesn't mean we can then dismiss his findings. Yes, other tests have shown some things here and there, but as I've mentioned above, the image has been modified over the years in variety of ways, in could easily be the case that the what the researchers were seeing were modifications, or the signs of past modifications done to the image.

Keep in mind, as I've said before, Callahan's study is just one of many, there are plenty of other studies out there which have found and/or confirmed miraculous properties present on the tilma; my personal favourite are the findings done by Luis Martinez Negrete. But I'm not here to debate the Guadalupe miracle, that's not the purpose of this thread, look up Luis Martinez Negrete when you have the time, but keep in mind most of the search results will come up in Spanish.

In regards Christ's hair, the standards of what's considered long or short hair by modern standards wasn't the same as the standards long and short hair in antiquity. Barber prices were much more expensive in antiquity than they are now, as barbering required much more skill because of the lack technology available at the time. The short hair that the Caesars bore wasn't just a show of their manliness, it was a show of their wealth and status. Christ and His Apostles didn't have access to the barbers that the Caesars had access to so their hair was considerably longer, but that hair length was by no means considered "long" by the standards of those times.


Smiles; the conclusive proof that it is NOT A Miracle is that it is a depiction of a Renaissance Painting
of Mary that portrays Her as European and Not a Semite. That's Just common Sense; no different than
Jesus being a small brown man; more than likely with short brown hair; other than that do Read
Paul's Verse again on Men having Long Hair as Dishonor; Obviously, he didn't See Jesus as Having
Long Hair in His vision or he wouldn't disrespect 'His Lord' that way; again; Just common sense.

On Top of that; It's all Just a Story Written across Many Centuries; and at least 4 Decades after
the Crucifixion of Jesus; Just ask one person to say the same exact thing twice here;
and You will see a difference across time; multiply that by thousands of Different
Round Table Versions until what was originally said isn't even recognizable.

Anyway; An Apple is not an Orange; but sure, it's just a fruit; as Whoever
Mary and Jesus were; are just Humans too; the rest is Just what's left of a story.

Believe
as You will;
but common
sense says different.


_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick


Greatshield17
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

Joined: 14 Sep 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia-Kootenay Region, British Columbia

04 Jun 2020, 8:14 pm

aghogday wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
... It's a song written by God Himself...
Evidence, please?

It's very suspicious that the first written account occurred over one-hundred years after the alleged event.

Well let's see what the scientist have discovered in their research of the tilma. Perhaps the most noteworthy and reliable research done on the tilma, is by Dr. Philip Callahan, biophysicist, USDA entomologist, and yes, NASA consultant. His research, using infrared light, found that the image was done simultaneously, with no underdrawings, no corrections, and no brushstrokes.

Now some features of the tilma have been added later on, and oddly enough those are the only parts of the image that show signs deterioration, the parts that are believed to be part of the original are still intact. (Keep in mind that this is a tilma, made out of cactus fibre, things made cactus fibre don't last very long, several replicas of the tilma have been made, and all them have long-since deteriorated; only the original is still around, centuries later.) Now I can't remember whether or not the stars were added on to the tilma, but if they were added on, allegedly a century after the miracle occurred, that, in and of itself is miraculous, because the stars line-up perfectly with the position of the stars in the sky on the exact date that the miracle occurred. To apply that kind of knowledge, when that kind of astronomy wouldn't be re-discovered until centuries later, I find that hard to believe. (Also on a simple common sensical level, wouldn't it be odd for the Franciscan priests to come out and say, "Oh, and by the way, a century ago there was this miracle that occurred to this Aztec guy, here's his tilma with the miraculous image on it, sorry you didn't here about this until now?" Wouldn't it make more sense, if the Franciscans were to make this up, to just come out and say, "Okay this just happened a few days ago, Our Lady appeared to this Aztec guy, here's his tilma with a miraculous image on it?")

These are just a few miraculous aspects of the tilma by the way, but I'll just leave it here for now.




"Special Interest Alert": Proceed With 'Caution'; Or Scroll By as Fast as You Will..;)

'This' Is Another one of 'those' 'Urban and Desert' Legends; Spreading Around
On Facebook That is easy enough to Prove; Yes, Disprove with One Stroke of Snopes.

And on Top of that; This 'Tilma' Representation of Mary Is Basically A 'Copy-Cat' Version of
Other Renaissance European Depictions of Mary; as Leonardo DaVinci, Of course, Painted
'Jesus' as A European Looking Man in A Day Where Beards And Long Hair Were Not Allowed;
Where Leonardo Sported A 'Hipster' Look Back Then; And Of Course Painted a Last Supper Jesus
That We So Often See Copied Even by Young Prodigies These Days Who Of Course Have Never Really
Seen 'European' Jesus either; as Yes; all the folks REALLY concerned Were From the Middle East Region;
Around 5 Feet Tall For Men and somewhere much Closer to 100 Pounds Soaking Wet; Whenever
it did Rain then.
It's Also Worth Noting:

"Does not even nature itself teach you that
if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?"

By:

So Called Paul And

1 Corinthians 11:14

Yes, By Paul, The 'Reformed Saul the Christian Hater Who Actually Said He Saw Jesus in A Vision After
Falling Down on a Road to Damascus; Whatever it takes to make a living; or have A Social Role as 'they' say.
Anyway; It was also considered a Disgrace during the Days When 'Jesus' Lived as Galilean Semite; Again,
Short; About Five-Foot-One; Around One-Hundred-Ten-Pounds; Shortly Cropped Dark Thick Curly Hair;
Rugged And Weathered too; Brown Eyes; Surely Not a Pretty Boy, Very Androgynous, Tall, Slender And
European Light Eyes Colored too; Oh Lord, How People Will Copy Stuff that wasn't the Original Art After All
is Said and Done; But Anyway; It sure does quickly Offer a Clue of What Is Real and What is NOT now and then.

Hehe; Yeah; Leonardo Painted me too; but of course i look nothing Like a "Galilean Semite", either;
Remember, the First Superman Movie in the Modern Series When They Showed 'Him' at age 33; Oh God Yes,
As of course even the Director of the Movie Said it was actually Based on the Jesus Story; Yes, With A Beard.
I'm Not Really 'The Man of Steel' Either; But I Did Recently Bend Back A Metal Support on a Leg Press Machine
Like a Pretzel; Photographs of Evidence Available upon Demand; No Different really than me Leg Pressing 1340
Pounds on YouTube, 12 Reps in 100 Seconds at Close to 60 Years-Old Now at a 90 Degree Angle; as yep; those
Running Days took a bit of a toll on my only Human Knees; but you do what you can and will do now; Best We
can and will; at best of course. Anyway That Was My Senior College Year Earning 3 Degrees Below at 22, Of
course in 'this Picture' As usual Ahead in the Race; i did have to play some Catch-up; And Yes, i obviously Did;
Anyway that Was 70 Pounds Ago; When i was 3 Times Weaker in Leg Strength; Don't Believe You Will Get Weaker;
Do the Work to make it Happen; Works for me at least, No Matter Numbers of Age; With Appropriate Equipment.

Considering that Modern Quantum Mechanics Sports 'Harmonic Super String Theories' that Suggest that the Underlying 'Order/Art' of Reality At Core Is 'Music' in this Way; And if one Truly Considers this God Feature as Alpha Thru Omega
All, Yes even more than a Five Foot Tall Small Brown Dude; Nope it's not much of a stretch At All to Hear 'God's Music' In All Stuff Existence From A to Z and More; A Piano is an Extension of Our Vocal Chords With Strings And Hammers of
Heart Beat in Percussion True; Lovely HeART Instrument, A Piano Surely Is; Such a Voice of Real God it Brings so True.

"Superstring theory, a hypothetical attempt to unite the fundamental forces—the gravitational, electroweak and strong forces—applies the idea of harmonics on a far smaller scale than atomic physics, on the order of the Planck length, about 10 -35 meters (compared to about 10 -10 meters for atoms). It replaces point particles with vibrating strands of energy. Various modes of vibration determine the particles’ properties, explaining the diversity of the particle zoo through the complexity of the oscillations and the geometry of the higher-dimensional space in which they are embedded."

Anyway, Back To The Subject of Mary And Jesus; It's Not Surprising that the 'Guardian's of the Galaxy' Movie Series
is Also Based on the General 'Jesus Story' too; So, What is this General Jesus Story and This Divine Mother Story;
Yes, of Course Archetypes of Heroes; Both in the Male And Female Divine Masculine And Feminine too;
My God; This Means that "Isaiah 53" is basically A Vanilla Template for the Masculine Hero Story too;
Yes; It's not the Story That is Actually King or Queen; it is the Essence of Our Humanity Brought to Book;
As Yes, of course Human Archetypes Become Visual Symbolic Representations of Organic Life; Yes, Us!
in Words
no
Less too.

Anyway; my Mama was
Surely Like a Combo of
Both Mary and Jesus to me;
But She Really Had no choice; cause my Father Left at 3.

After That; i Always Saw Something Much Larger as my Father; All of Nature (God) and me too.

It's Nice to be Humble Enough to Understand We Will All Lift Each Other Up or Worship 2 or 3 Idols.

My Mother Looked Nothing like a Galilean Semite, either; in Fact My Father's Mother (My Mother Helen, Meaning
Light Bringer, by the way) Said She Had A Glowing Fairest Skin on a Woman She Ever Saw then; Well Yeah; She Was
Dripping With Estrogen; Winning Best Figure in 11th and 12th Grade; Always my Hero; i guess that's why i've never
been that impressed with Story Book Mary and Jesus; some of are just lucky in Hell and Heaven Now. Is it any Surprise
i Danced 13,237 Miles in 81 Months in Public; and Wrote an 8.1 MiLLioN Epic Longest Form Poem Bible in 81 Months too:

Not Really, Even now at So Close to 60 on 6.6.20; The Globe is Bigger Than A Desert Patch of Dirt; i didn't REALLY even Get Started 'till 53 in the Summer of '13.

My Suggestion is Just Do 'John 14:12'; Yes, Just Do It; Find Your Own Mary; Settle Down and have a Hero too; or Become one; Whatever Works for You; Or You Can Worship Forms Instead of Essence; That Part is up to You; Don't Forget the Smaller Galilean Semite Parts, if so.

Image

Image

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/is-vi ... pe-living/

https://artsandculture.google.com/userg ... aB5av8qjKQ

https://www.popularmechanics.com/scienc ... 4/1282186/

https://www.cnn.com/2013/06/14/showbiz/ ... index.html

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/q ... and-music/

No, the Snopes article does not disprove the Guadalupe Miracle.

The Snopes article debunks one myth regarding the miraculous tilma that's it. The article does goes on (for some reason) to try and disprove the miracle, but it fails, Callahan's findings still stand. Yes, Callahan didn't get to perform every test he would've liked to, but just because he didn't get to do every test he would've liked, doesn't mean we can then dismiss his findings. Yes, other tests have shown some things here and there, but as I've mentioned above, the image has been modified over the years in variety of ways, in could easily be the case that the what the researchers were seeing were modifications, or the signs of past modifications done to the image.

Keep in mind, as I've said before, Callahan's study is just one of many, there are plenty of other studies out there which have found and/or confirmed miraculous properties present on the tilma; my personal favourite are the findings done by Luis Martinez Negrete. But I'm not here to debate the Guadalupe miracle, that's not the purpose of this thread, look up Luis Martinez Negrete when you have the time, but keep in mind most of the search results will come up in Spanish.

In regards Christ's hair, the standards of what's considered long or short hair by modern standards wasn't the same as the standards long and short hair in antiquity. Barber prices were much more expensive in antiquity than they are now, as barbering required much more skill because of the lack technology available at the time. The short hair that the Caesars bore wasn't just a show of their manliness, it was a show of their wealth and status. Christ and His Apostles didn't have access to the barbers that the Caesars had access to so their hair was considerably longer, but that hair length was by no means considered "long" by the standards of those times.


Smiles; the conclusive proof that it is NOT A Miracle is that it is a depiction of a Renaissance Painting
of Mary that portrays Her as European and Not a Semite. That's Just common Sense; no different than
Jesus being a small brown man; more than likely with short brown hair; other than that do Read
Paul's Verse again on Men having Long Hair as Dishonor; Obviously, he didn't See Jesus as Having
Long Hair in His vision or he wouldn't disrespect 'His Lord' that way; again; Just common sense.

On Top of that; It's all Just a Story Written across Many Centuries; and at least 4 Decades after
the Crucifixion of Jesus; Just ask one person to say the same exact thing twice here;
and You will see a difference across time; multiply that by thousands of Different
Round Table Versions until what was originally said isn't even recognizable.

Anyway; An Apple is not an Orange; but sure, it's just a fruit; as Whoever
Mary and Jesus were; are just Humans too; the rest is Just what's left of a story.

Believe
as You will;
but common
sense says different.

First of all, the tilma doesn't portray Our Lady as European, it portrays Her as either indigenous or mestiza. Secondly, ethnicity or race is an accidental property doesn't effect one's nature; all people are equally human in nature, regardless of their ethnicity. Thus unless one wants to depict Our Lady in Her historical time period while on earth, whatever ethnicity one wishes to portray Our Lady in doesn't really matter, as long it is clearly Our Lady that's being portrayed. In the case of tilma, God portrayed Our Lady as indigenous or mestiza woman in order to appeal to the indigenous people of Mexico, and that appeal resulted in the mass conversion of the indigenous peoples of Mexico.


_________________
Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."


aghogday
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User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,123

04 Jun 2020, 11:28 pm

^^^
Smiles, that's one Very European Looking
Painting of Renaissance Era Mary that of course
Came the way of European Marching Christian Soldiers
Who Slaughtered Indians if they didn't go the way of
"Peaceful Jesus" of course that still happens now in
so many ways up to Torture of Living Death still although
it may be very slow like Gay Folks in Congregations
who are made to feel they are less than worthy for
Holy and Sacred Life-Long-Long-Sacraments-of-Marriage
Just because
someone is
afraid of
what Body
Parts touch what...
Anyway; Now You are going
somewhere when you say it doesn't
Matter How the Essence of the 'Divine Feminine'
Is portrayed; My Mother Surely Fits that Archetype
And Looks a whole more like the European Depictions
than the Original Small Brown Semite Make and Model of Mary...
Smiles; There Will Aways Be Male and Female Heroes Just Different
Labels for the Similar Essence;
A Balance of Divine Will and
Strength in Masculine And
Feminine Grace
in Balance of
Love in all
Humans...
You are
correct
if you
understand that
but of course i believe
everyone is gonna have to
Find Their way to Heaven now or not;
Once you arrive; there will be no fooling
Yourself; when and if you do now; but again,
my Best Suggestion is work on finding that 'Mary
Wife' Settling Down; Creating Heroes to come or now be that one...You...
Most folks
Seriously
Are Way Too
Timid to Pick up
A Mary and or Jesus
Ball and Finish the Game Themselves...
But of course all these Metaphor are mine and 'theirs'..:)


_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick


Greatshield17
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

Joined: 14 Sep 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia-Kootenay Region, British Columbia

06 Jun 2020, 7:04 pm

aghogday wrote:
^^^
Smiles, that's one Very European Looking
Painting of Renaissance Era Mary that of course
Came the way of European Marching Christian Soldiers
Who Slaughtered Indians if they didn't go the way of
"Peaceful Jesus" of course that still happens now in
so many ways up to Torture of Living Death still although
it may be very slow like Gay Folks in Congregations
who are made to feel they are less than worthy for
Holy and Sacred Life-Long-Long-Sacraments-of-Marriage
Just because
someone is
afraid of
what Body
Parts touch what...
Anyway; Now You are going
somewhere when you say it doesn't
Matter How the Essence of the 'Divine Feminine'
Is portrayed; My Mother Surely Fits that Archetype
And Looks a whole more like the European Depictions
than the Original Small Brown Semite Make and Model of Mary...
Smiles; There Will Aways Be Male and Female Heroes Just Different
Labels for the Similar Essence;
A Balance of Divine Will and
Strength in Masculine And
Feminine Grace
in Balance of
Love in all
Humans...
You are
correct
if you
understand that
but of course i believe
everyone is gonna have to
Find Their way to Heaven now or not;
Once you arrive; there will be no fooling
Yourself; when and if you do now; but again,
my Best Suggestion is work on finding that 'Mary
Wife' Settling Down; Creating Heroes to come or now be that one...You...
Most folks
Seriously
Are Way Too
Timid to Pick up
A Mary and or Jesus
Ball and Finish the Game Themselves...
But of course all these Metaphor are mine and 'theirs'..:)

What's so "European Renaissance" about it? The only thing I can see that's European about the image are the fur-cuffed sleeves on Her gown, and the angel under Her feet, although that was probably one of the additions added later, which is evidenced by the fact that it shows signs of deterioration unlike much of the rest of the image.

The Catholic Church never promoted coerced conversions, yes there were abuses throughout human history, and yes the Catholic Church did promote confessional states, but you'll never find anywhere in the New Testament or Sacred Tradition, official doctrinal or dogmatic commands to force unbelievers to convert against their free-will. The casus belli for the Conquest of the Aztec Empire was not that they were pagans, but that they were pagans that engaged in human sacrifice.Thus Hernan Cortez, with the help of several indigenous nations who did not like being held under the dominance of the Aztec Empire, overthrew the Empire and put a stop to the human sacrifices. (I'm actually thinking about naming one of my future daughters Malincy, after La Malinche.) Now it is true that the first colonial governor of Mexico, mistreated the Aztecs and other indigenous peoples, but that kind of behaviour isn't Catholic, in fact it was so un-Catholic that the first bishop of Mexico City put a stop to it by placing the colony under interdict; that put a swift end to the governor's term in office. The Bishop of Mexico City then prayed to Our Lady for help in converting in the indigenous peoples and She answered him, with the tilma. The indigenous peoples' happy embracing of the Faith after receiving word of the tilma, was unprecedented in human history, one priest described it as "a Pentecost everyday for ten years!"

Years later, when apostasy struck Mexico and the government started imposing anticlerical laws, the descendants of those Aztecs and other indigenous peoples were among those who rose up and resisted the laws. I pray that I have the same gratitude, joy and zeal for the Faith, as those indigenous peoples and their descendants:


_________________
Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."


Fnord
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User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 44,531
Location: Stendec

06 Jun 2020, 7:17 pm

Greatshield17 wrote:
The Catholic Church never promoted coerced conversions...

:roll: Non falsum testimonium dices: Quare tu?

Over centuries, the Jewish community in Spain had flourished and grown in numbers and influence, though anti-Semitism had surfaced from time to time.  During the reign of Henry III of Castile and Leon (1390 to 1406), Jews faced increased persecution and were pressured to convert to Christianity.  The pogroms of 1391 were especially brutal, and the threat of violence hung over the Jewish community in Spain.  Faced with the choice between baptism and death, the number of nominal converts to the Christian faith soon became very great.  Many Jews were killed, and those who adopted Christian beliefs -- the so-called conversos (Spanish: "converted") -- faced continued suspicion and prejudice.

In addition, there remained a significant population of Jews who had professed conversion but continued to practice their faith in secret.  Known as Marranos, those nominal converts from Judaism were perceived to be an even greater threat to the social order than those who had rejected forced conversion.  After Aragon and Castile were united by the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella (1469), the Marranos were denounced as a danger to the existence of Christian Spain.  In 1478 Pope Sixtus IV issued a bull authorizing the Catholic Monarchs to name inquisitors who would address the issue.  The first Spanish inquisitors, operating in Seville, proved so severe that Sixtus IV attempted to intervene.

The grand inquisitor acted as the head of the Inquisition in Spain.  In procedure the Spanish Inquisition was much like the medieval inquisition.  The first grand inquisitor in Spain was the Dominican Tomás de Torquemada; his name became synonymous with the brutality and fanaticism associated with the Inquisition.  Torquemada used torture and confiscation to terrorize his victims, and his methods were the product of a time when judicial procedure was cruel by design.  The condemned were presented before a large crowd that often included royalty, and the proceedings had a ritualized, almost festive, quality.


_________________
 
Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


Greatshield17
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

Joined: 14 Sep 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia-Kootenay Region, British Columbia

06 Jun 2020, 7:27 pm

Fnord wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
The Catholic Church never promoted coerced conversions...

:roll: Non falsum testimonium dices: Quare tu?

Over centuries, the Jewish community in Spain had flourished and grown in numbers and influence, though anti-Semitism had surfaced from time to time.  During the reign of Henry III of Castile and Leon (1390 to 1406), Jews faced increased persecution and were pressured to convert to Christianity.  The pogroms of 1391 were especially brutal, and the threat of violence hung over the Jewish community in Spain.  Faced with the choice between baptism and death, the number of nominal converts to the Christian faith soon became very great.  Many Jews were killed, and those who adopted Christian beliefs -- the so-called conversos (Spanish: "converted") -- faced continued suspicion and prejudice.

In addition, there remained a significant population of Jews who had professed conversion but continued to practice their faith in secret.  Known as Marranos, those nominal converts from Judaism were perceived to be an even greater threat to the social order than those who had rejected forced conversion.  After Aragon and Castile were united by the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella (1469), the Marranos were denounced as a danger to the existence of Christian Spain.  In 1478 Pope Sixtus IV issued a bull authorizing the Catholic Monarchs to name inquisitors who would address the issue.  The first Spanish inquisitors, operating in Seville, proved so severe that Sixtus IV attempted to intervene.

The grand inquisitor acted as the head of the Inquisition in Spain.  In procedure the Spanish Inquisition was much like the medieval inquisition.  The first grand inquisitor in Spain was the Dominican Tomás de Torquemada; his name became synonymous with the brutality and fanaticism associated with the Inquisition.  Torquemada used torture and confiscation to terrorize his victims, and his methods were the product of a time when judicial procedure was cruel by design.  The condemned were presented before a large crowd that often included royalty, and the proceedings had a ritualized, almost festive, quality.

The Catholic Church did not authorize the Spanish Inquisition, it was done totally outside of Rome's Authority, end of story.


_________________
Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."


Greatshield17
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

Joined: 14 Sep 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia-Kootenay Region, British Columbia

06 Jun 2020, 8:23 pm

Fnord wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
The Catholic Church never promoted coerced conversions...

:roll: Non falsum testimonium dices: Quare tu?

Over centuries, the Jewish community in Spain had flourished and grown in numbers and influence, though anti-Semitism had surfaced from time to time.  During the reign of Henry III of Castile and Leon (1390 to 1406), Jews faced increased persecution and were pressured to convert to Christianity.  The pogroms of 1391 were especially brutal, and the threat of violence hung over the Jewish community in Spain.  Faced with the choice between baptism and death, the number of nominal converts to the Christian faith soon became very great.  Many Jews were killed, and those who adopted Christian beliefs -- the so-called conversos (Spanish: "converted") -- faced continued suspicion and prejudice.

In addition, there remained a significant population of Jews who had professed conversion but continued to practice their faith in secret.  Known as Marranos, those nominal converts from Judaism were perceived to be an even greater threat to the social order than those who had rejected forced conversion.  After Aragon and Castile were united by the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella (1469), the Marranos were denounced as a danger to the existence of Christian Spain.  In 1478 Pope Sixtus IV issued a bull authorizing the Catholic Monarchs to name inquisitors who would address the issue.  The first Spanish inquisitors, operating in Seville, proved so severe that Sixtus IV attempted to intervene.

The grand inquisitor acted as the head of the Inquisition in Spain.  In procedure the Spanish Inquisition was much like the medieval inquisition.  The first grand inquisitor in Spain was the Dominican Tomás de Torquemada; his name became synonymous with the brutality and fanaticism associated with the Inquisition.  Torquemada used torture and confiscation to terrorize his victims, and his methods were the product of a time when judicial procedure was cruel by design.  The condemned were presented before a large crowd that often included royalty, and the proceedings had a ritualized, almost festive, quality.


_________________
Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."