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Fnord
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07 Jun 2020, 11:33 am

Constantine established the Holy Roman Empire in 325 CE and made Christianity the official state religion.  The Roman Catholic Church that Constantine established used the administrative and military powers afforded it to advance the religion over the following centuries.

The Vandals were an ethnic group living in Europe in the fourth century.  As the Holy Roman Empire's authority faded in western Europe, these pagans attempted to step into fill the void.  They conquered a lot of the territory that Rome had once occupied in North Africa, engaged in piracy among many of Rome's merchant ships and even attacked Rome itself in 455.  In 534, Roman Emperor Justinian invaded Carthage with the blessing of the church and set in motion the genocide of the Vandals.  Because history is written by the victors, we now have the term "vandalism" which paints this group of people with a broadly negative brush.

The Vandals weren't the only pagan ethnicity that the Roman empire exterminated with the approval of Catholicism, however.  The Heruli and Ostogoths were similarly wiped out because they stood in the way of the expansion of the Holy Roman EmpireThe practices of forced conversion to Catholicism were born out of the ideology that held that the existence of non-Christian people was a threat to Christendom.

Between the eighth and 12th centuries, the military missions of Catholicism focused on eastern Europe.  Roman Emperor Charlemagne went on a mission to unite all Germanic peoples under his authority.  This included forcefully converting them to Catholicism, and once in power over the pagan Saxons, Charlemagne issued an edict stating that those who refused to convert to Catholicism should be put to death.

Not long after Charlemagne was killing Saxons, the Medieval Inquisitions began.  The less-famous predecessors of the more well-known Spanish variety of inquisition, these events started near the end of the 12th century and carried through the middle part of the 13th century.  In case you aren't familiar with inquisitions, they were sham trials of individuals accused of heresy.  Heresy is more accurately described as not doing whatever you had to do to convince everyone around you that you were part of Roman Catholicism, or of making people angry enough that they would accuse you of heresy just to watch you suffer and die.

The individuals found guilty, which was the case in the vast majority of the trials, were either murdered, tortured, or tortured until the torture became murder.  The inquisitions had the desired effect, as droves of people who were scared for their safety started doing the desired things to avoid being killed or tortured -- converting to Roman Catholicism.

Meanwhile, the killings and plundering in the name of "Christianity" in eastern Europe continued.  The Teutonic Order of Knights, which was essentially the military wing of the Roman Catholic Church in northeastern Europe in the 14th century, set up camp in Prussia in 1309.  From there, these "Christian" soldiers went onward as to war, with the cross of Jesus going on before.  They celebrated Christmas every year by invading neighboring Lithuania and killing its people.  They also engaged in more extensive campaigns in Lithuania in the summer.

The pope gave the stamp of approval to the murder and plundering of many Lithuanians.  After enduring the onslaught for 77 years, King Ladislas Jagiello of Lithuania did his people a favor by marrying a Polish Christian princess, in the process of which he was baptized as a Christian.  In turn, the Teutonic raids on Lithuania ceased.

Post-Roman Forced Conversions

Moving into the 15th century, we happen upon the afore-mentioned Spanish Inquisition, which was instituted by the Catholic throne of Spain and focused specifically on Jews.  Anyone convicted of secretly practicing Judaism, and therefore denying the deity of Jesus, would receive the same punishment as the victims of the prior inquisitions had gotten.

The following century was when forced conversion to Christianity spread to other continents and people.  The Spanish Requirement of 1513 stated that it was the Spanish crown's position that it was its right, backed by the pope and therefore the Roman Catholic god, to conquer the native people and territory in North and South America, and force them to convert to their version of Christianity.

In addition to native Americans who were forced to convert, the same practice was engaged in among Africans who were captured as slaves by Western Europeans.  Under threat of torture, African slaves were forced to abandon their previous beliefs that they held prior to enslavement in favor of the "loving and merciful" god of their captors.

As previously stated, most modern-day Catholics will easily lie about and totally condemn these methods of proselytization.  That doesn't erase the history, however.  The fact remains that Catholicism became the dominant religion in Europe and the Americas not by the quality of its doctrine or the proof of its superiority as a philosophy, but by the strength of its political and military might -- conversion by the sword.


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Greatshield17
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08 Jun 2020, 12:39 am

Fnord wrote:
The Spanish missions in California comprise a series of 21 religious outposts or missions established between 1769 and 1833 in what is now the U.S. state of California.  Founded by Catholic priests of the Franciscan order to evangelize the Native Americans, the missions led to the creation of the New Spain province of Alta California and were part of the expansion of the Spanish Empire into the most northern and western parts of Spanish North America.

Following long-term secular and religious policy of Spain in Spanish America, the Catholic missionaries forced the native Californians to live in settlements called reductions, disrupting their traditional way of life.  The Catholic missions inflicted various abuses and oppression upon the native population.  While many natives were lured to join the missions out of curiosity and sincere desire to participate and engage in trade, many found themselves trapped once they were baptized.

To the Catholic padres, a baptized Indian person was no longer free to move about the country, but had to labor and worship at the mission under the strict observance of the priests and overseers, who herded the Indians to daily masses and labors.  If an Indian did not report for their duties for a period of a few days, they were searched for, and if it was discovered that they had left without permission, they were considered runaways.  Large-scale military expeditions were organized to round up the escaped neophytes.

On one occasion, they went as far as the present Rancho del Chino, where they tied and whipped every man, woman and child in the lodge, and drove part of them back.  On arriving home the men were instructed to make due submission at the feet of the priest.  The infants were then forcefully taken and baptized, as were also all children under eight years of age; the former were left with their mothers, but the latter were taken away and kept apart from all communication with their parents.  The consequence was, first, the women consented to the rite and received it, for the love they bore their children; and finally the males gave way for the purpose of enjoying once more the society of wife and family.  Marriage was then performed, and so this contaminated race, in their own sight and that of their kindred, became followers of Christ.

Young native women were required to reside in the monjerío (or "nunnery").  Women only left the convent after they had been "won" by a suitor and were deemed ready for marriage.  The cramped and unsanitary conditions the girls lived in contributed to the fast spread of disease and population decline.  So many died at times that the Catholic priests raided new villages to supply the men with more women.

The labor organizations of the missions resembled slave plantations in many respects.  Foreigners who visited the missions remarked at how the Catholic priests' control over the Indians was excessive.  Indians were not paid wages as they were not considered free laborers and, as a result, the missions were able to profit from the goods produced by the Mission Indians.  While the fiction prevailed that neophytes were to receive wages for their work, no attempt was made to distribute the alleged wages.  It is recorded that the neophytes performed the work "under unmitigated compulsion" -- a.k.a., "Slavery".

Ah yes, Saint Junipero Serra, a man who it one point during his time at the Missions, walked on-foot from California, all the way to Mexico City to defend the rights of indigenous man; clearly this guy hated indigenous people! :roll:

You know it's funny, I live in the Canadian Province of British Columbia which is part of the West Coast; and whenever the topic of the mistreatment (namely genocide) of the Indigenous peoples of California comes up, it's almost always the Gold Rush. The early colonial leaders of British Columbia were terrified of the extermination campaigns against in the Indigenous peoples taking place down south, and feared the possibility of the violence happening up here; what they called "Californiazation." It seems to me like all this emphasis on St. Junipero Serra's Missions is really an attempt to deflect attention away from the actual genocide that took place during the Gold Rush; mixing it into the Spanish Black Legend, which is really where a lot of this stuff like the Inquisition, Anti-Catholic Propaganda perpetrated by various Protestant nations to demonize Catholic Spain. Not that there weren't atrocities and the like committed by the Spanish against Indigenous peoples, which in fact, is actually what St. Junipero Serra was concerned about when he set up and ran the Missions the way he did.

St. Junipero Serra set up the Missions in California, not just to save the souls of the Indigenous peoples there (although that was his primary concern.) but also their earthly existence from being exploited by the incoming Spanish settlers. This was of special concern during St. Junipero's times because the Spanish Empire was starting to enact the Bourbon Reforms, which among other things, started stripping the Indigenous peoples of the freedom and autonomy they enjoyed in the Empire prior to this time. (Hence Tupac's Revolt in South America) Thus St. Junipero had the Indigenous peoples adopt agricultural practices, which would give them economic independence and strength against any threat of exploitation. It is true that indigenous peoples were lashed when they misbehaved, but in those days, if you lived anywhere where there was a heavy or complete military presence and you misbehaved, you got lashed, regardless of the your ethnicity or religion. "Runaways" were lashed both, because of the miscommunications regarding the expectation of one who was baptized, but also because again, St. Junipero was worried about the threat of the indigenous peoples being exploited by Spanish settlers and thus, the "runaway" not only endangered his own soul, but also the well-being of his own community.

I'll answer your second post tomorrow, it's really late here. However I will say one thing about the first sentence of your second post, how Constantine apparently "established the Holy Roman Empire in 325 [AD] and made Christianity the official state religion." and that is simply this: :roll:


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Glory to God
and
Hail Mary!


aghogday
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08 Jun 2020, 9:55 am

Greatshield17 wrote:
aghogday wrote:
^^^
Smiles, that's one Very European Looking
Painting of Renaissance Era Mary that of course
Came the way of European Marching Christian Soldiers
Who Slaughtered Indians if they didn't go the way of
"Peaceful Jesus" of course that still happens now in
so many ways up to Torture of Living Death still although
it may be very slow like Gay Folks in Congregations
who are made to feel they are less than worthy for
Holy and Sacred Life-Long-Long-Sacraments-of-Marriage
Just because
someone is
afraid of
what Body
Parts touch what...
Anyway; Now You are going
somewhere when you say it doesn't
Matter How the Essence of the 'Divine Feminine'
Is portrayed; My Mother Surely Fits that Archetype
And Looks a whole more like the European Depictions
than the Original Small Brown Semite Make and Model of Mary...
Smiles; There Will Aways Be Male and Female Heroes Just Different
Labels for the Similar Essence;
A Balance of Divine Will and
Strength in Masculine And
Feminine Grace
in Balance of
Love in all
Humans...
You are
correct
if you
understand that
but of course i believe
everyone is gonna have to
Find Their way to Heaven now or not;
Once you arrive; there will be no fooling
Yourself; when and if you do now; but again,
my Best Suggestion is work on finding that 'Mary
Wife' Settling Down; Creating Heroes to come or now be that one...You...
Most folks
Seriously
Are Way Too
Timid to Pick up
A Mary and or Jesus
Ball and Finish the Game Themselves...
But of course all these Metaphor are mine and 'theirs'..:)

What's so "European Renaissance" about it? The only thing I can see that's European about the image are the fur-cuffed sleeves on Her gown, and the angel under Her feet, although that was probably one of the additions added later, which is evidenced by the fact that it shows signs of deterioration unlike much of the rest of the image.

The Catholic Church never promoted coerced conversions, yes there were abuses throughout human history, and yes the Catholic Church did promote confessional states, but you'll never find anywhere in the New Testament or Sacred Tradition, official doctrinal or dogmatic commands to force unbelievers to convert against their free-will. The casus belli for the Conquest of the Aztec Empire was not that they were pagans, but that they were pagans that engaged in human sacrifice.Thus Hernan Cortez, with the help of several indigenous nations who did not like being held under the dominance of the Aztec Empire, overthrew the Empire and put a stop to the human sacrifices. (I'm actually thinking about naming one of my future daughters Malincy, after La Malinche.) Now it is true that the first colonial governor of Mexico, mistreated the Aztecs and other indigenous peoples, but that kind of behaviour isn't Catholic, in fact it was so un-Catholic that the first bishop of Mexico City put a stop to it by placing the colony under interdict; that put a swift end to the governor's term in office. The Bishop of Mexico City then prayed to Our Lady for help in converting in the indigenous peoples and She answered him, with the tilma. The indigenous peoples' happy embracing of the Faith after receiving word of the tilma, was unprecedented in human history, one priest described it as "a Pentecost everyday for ten years!"

Years later, when apostasy struck Mexico and the government started imposing anticlerical laws, the descendants of those Aztecs and other indigenous peoples were among those who rose up and resisted the laws. I pray that I have the same gratitude, joy and zeal for the Faith, as those indigenous peoples and their descendants:




Hehe; The Arrows Were Pointed toward the Multiple images
of my Mother that You Quoted in Response to me;
Just Another Fair Skinned, Soft Featured European
Looking Woman Portraying an Ideal of Femininity
that is Pure; A Soul That Is Pure, Having Nothing
to Do With Mileage/Use on this or that Body Part
Like Assessing a New or Used Car As Women
Have been Objectified as Only Bodies without
Souls for Thousands of Years; not even held
up to the Spirit of Males that are so lacking
In Patriarchal Ways of Gardening Men
Without Empathy, so they will be able
to Kill Folks In Other Tribes with No Shame.
Sadly, even now, some folks don't understand that
DarK Will
Be
Virgin
In Spirit LiGHT too;
But Again; Sadly Body
Parts are all some Folks
See Worth in Value for Soul;
Still Amongst Men who See Women
As only Cattle To Breed/Garden More B8LL SH8T.
Only Symbols; Books Are only Idols; Lessons are only Idols;
Letters/Words Are Only Empty Shells As Covers of Books;
Without Any Substance; Without Any Spirit of HeART REAL;
Without any Souls that ARE Real as Love; The Catholic CHURCH
HAS ZERO MORAL AUTHORITY; THEY LOST IT ALL WHEN 'THEY'
PROTECTED PEDOPHILE PRIESTS TO BISHOPS TO A VERY TOP OF THE
CHALICE
GOLD
THAT NEVER
HELD LOVE
GOD AS SOUL.
Other than that; i said
Indians; Not Mexicans and
Fnord, did a Great Job of Describing
The Atrocities Onward Christian Soldiers
Did In Torturing and Murdering them Fast and Slow.

Now LooKinG at this in a Different Way too; As Devil'S ADvocates Also
Teach; As TOTALLY Disgusted as i am At Aspects of the Catholic Church;
YES, Holy Cr8p For Real; as far as my Community Goes in terms of Staying
Away from the Fray of Sending Everyone else to Hell; but the 'Good Folks'
who go To 'This Specific Church'; Still, Head And Shoulders above the Rest.
i go for the Singing; And the Few People who look elsewhere but 'their Feet'.
i've got thick skin; really thick skin; and when stuff stinks, i STILL Breathe; And
on top of that; if you want change; it comes from within; and within Organizations too.
i could Sing to The Choir; But my Voice is Powerful enough from the Back Row to Be The Choir;
'Here
i am';
Yes, me
Singing too;
From the Back
as usual; i don't leave
'Home' without the Evidence.
SITTING at the Head of my Mother's
Death Bed With As Much Mercy NoW As
Hospice offers A Thousand Times more
Torture and More Than We would allow
Our Pet Dogs and Cats on their Death Beds;
Starving to Death Without Food or Drink for 8 Days;
The Doctors Said; Usually it only Takes 3 Days, about
the Distance of Jesus 'Rolling Away the Stone'; but of
Course She had no guarantee of Coming Back and Her
Tour of Medically approved torture took 8 Days; as good
as we provide our Loved ones as far away as Mercy this is;
It Was the Most Amazing Thing; As She took Her last Breath, the Silence
Was Deafening; the Loudest Voice i've Heard; nothing but the Love from Her
That Still Breathes My Soul; Going Home then; i understood the Reason for Mary;
The Reason for Jesus; and Many Other Stories and Myths; Not everyone Has a God of Love
For a Mother;
And when that
Happens a Myth;
even an Idol
is better
than
Nothing.
I understood why
Folks Love a Story so
Much; They never had a Mother
Like Mine; who made all the stories
all that they were; just stories and not Real.
Smiles my Friend, i can't judge you; You didn't have my Mother.

And Here's the Story of My Father; the Same 'Old Testament Story';
"Son, join the Military it will make You a Man"; from his easy Chair
never giving me any Personal advice at all; for the Twice-A-Year
Visit we made to see him; after He, leaving our Family at 3 to find
A Wife who would make Him More money; instead of staying home raising us.

When My Only Child; My Child Ryan, was born two Days Before my Birthday
as yes i turned 60 on Saturday, 6.6.2020; Shortly then, After Father's Day in 1997,
He Went in to have Heart Surgery; My Father didn't attend my Wedding or Graduation
From College; but he made it far enough to the Heart Surgery then to tell me, "Raise Him
Like A Boy"; He was too ignorant of Science; not to understand that this was all "Medical
Fluff" and He wasn't gonna make it past 51 Days with all the Genetic Anomalies he had;
Like Not Being Able to Breathe; and having No Immune System; And Only Living In Pain never
experiencing even one Human Smile in Life. Anyway; that Child Saved my Life; That Child was
my Savior
for that
Child
Never
had a
Smile; And
i had everything
worth Living for a Smile;
That Smile went a away for
66 Months with a Pain Technically
Assessed as Worse than the Pain of
Crucifixion as there was a Day my Mother
Bought A Book on the Crucifixion of Jesus;
as true she took a Story as Greater Truth than What
i was actually experiencing; She opened the Book to Prove
me wrong; and sure enough on that very page she read to me
THAT Trigeminal Neuralgia is a Pain worse than Crucifixion; it didn't
matter; she had been watching Faux News too long; The Church had become her God;
EWTN and Bill O'Reilly too; She Didn't live long enough to see what he was fully up to, too;
Or the Catholic Church Either.

Anyway; My Memory of a Smile
was gone as Type-Two Trigeminal
Neuralgia isn't just sporadic; it is a
Wake to Sleep Gift of Curse in Dark and Numb;
As the Pain is not nearly as bad as the Numb of No Feelings.
Again, for me, wake to sleep for 66 Months with Yes, 19 Total
Medical Disorders; in a Synergy of Life Threatening Conditions with No Prognosis
From Any Doctor to Recover; We Have this Much Greater Force in Us than any Book,
Any Word, Any Myth or Story; We have the Ability in Potential to Cure ourselves from
The technical worst of Pain and Numb; i refuse to Believe i am any more Special than
A Grain of
Sand;
but
i am
God too;
No Different
than Below that
Grain of Sand; Here i am;
Make oF iT as You Will; i make
the Best out of this Life Gift and Tell This REAL STORY OF LOVE.

Smiles, my Friend, As Aphorisms and Other Human Generalities
in Large Brush Sweeps of MasterPeace Paintings Come and Go;
THere Are Two Kinds of Humans; The Audience, The Spectators; And
Then The Writers, The Directors, The Actors of the Plays of Real Life They Create.

Being Jesus
is an Old Story.
Being Mary is An Old Story;
Just be a Slave to The Story;
Copy The Story; or Create Your
Own Story that is Real; that is
up to you to decide Now and Then.

If You Like The Story Enough
Tell it Honestly to the Best
of Your Ability; it might inspire
someone to tell even a Greater Story one day.

Or a Very
simple

one

Like

A Smile

on A Child's

Face; A Breath

Of Love The Child Feels;

The Heaven Within MaKinG LiFE
Worth LiVinG, GiVinG, SHaRinG Free For Real.

You Treat People With Unerring Respect; You are special this way.

i See Potential in You; Great Potential of Love; Do Make Love Your
God; the Best one i Feel; That Much i Believe You Will Do. Other than THAT

Have a Nice Day,

-Just another
Dance of the 'Mill
Town' Bible Writer
With The Best Gift
oF All SMiLeS oF LoVE (HeAVeNoW)

"Here i am" With You For Real Now.


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Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick


Syd
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08 Jun 2020, 10:17 am

As an agnostic, I lack the faith and beliefs that some of you possess. I'll probably always view art as the work of humanity rather than Divinity. Regardless, some of my favorite composers were highly religious, and a lot of music that I love would not exist without those inspirations.

Here is an instrumental rendition of Ave Maria composed by Johann Sebastian Bach, improvised by Charles Gounod, and performed by cellist Mischa Maisky and pianist Pavel Gililov.



Greatshield17
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10 Jun 2020, 1:17 am

Fnord wrote:
Constantine established the Holy Roman Empire in 325 CE and made Christianity the official state religion.  The Roman Catholic Church that Constantine established used the administrative and military powers afforded it to advance the religion over the following centuries.

The Vandals were an ethnic group living in Europe in the fourth century.  As the Holy Roman Empire's authority faded in western Europe, these pagans attempted to step into fill the void.  They conquered a lot of the territory that Rome had once occupied in North Africa, engaged in piracy among many of Rome's merchant ships and even attacked Rome itself in 455.  In 534, Roman Emperor Justinian invaded Carthage with the blessing of the church and set in motion the genocide of the Vandals.  Because history is written by the victors, we now have the term "vandalism" which paints this group of people with a broadly negative brush.

The Vandals weren't the only pagan ethnicity that the Roman empire exterminated with the approval of Catholicism, however.  The Heruli and Ostogoths were similarly wiped out because they stood in the way of the expansion of the Holy Roman EmpireThe practices of forced conversion to Catholicism were born out of the ideology that held that the existence of non-Christian people was a threat to Christendom.

Between the eighth and 12th centuries, the military missions of Catholicism focused on eastern Europe.  Roman Emperor Charlemagne went on a mission to unite all Germanic peoples under his authority.  This included forcefully converting them to Catholicism, and once in power over the pagan Saxons, Charlemagne issued an edict stating that those who refused to convert to Catholicism should be put to death.

Not long after Charlemagne was killing Saxons, the Medieval Inquisitions began.  The less-famous predecessors of the more well-known Spanish variety of inquisition, these events started near the end of the 12th century and carried through the middle part of the 13th century.  In case you aren't familiar with inquisitions, they were sham trials of individuals accused of heresy.  Heresy is more accurately described as not doing whatever you had to do to convince everyone around you that you were part of Roman Catholicism, or of making people angry enough that they would accuse you of heresy just to watch you suffer and die.

The individuals found guilty, which was the case in the vast majority of the trials, were either murdered, tortured, or tortured until the torture became murder.  The inquisitions had the desired effect, as droves of people who were scared for their safety started doing the desired things to avoid being killed or tortured -- converting to Roman Catholicism.

Meanwhile, the killings and plundering in the name of "Christianity" in eastern Europe continued.  The Teutonic Order of Knights, which was essentially the military wing of the Roman Catholic Church in northeastern Europe in the 14th century, set up camp in Prussia in 1309.  From there, these "Christian" soldiers went onward as to war, with the cross of Jesus going on before.  They celebrated Christmas every year by invading neighboring Lithuania and killing its people.  They also engaged in more extensive campaigns in Lithuania in the summer.

The pope gave the stamp of approval to the murder and plundering of many Lithuanians.  After enduring the onslaught for 77 years, King Ladislas Jagiello of Lithuania did his people a favor by marrying a Polish Christian princess, in the process of which he was baptized as a Christian.  In turn, the Teutonic raids on Lithuania ceased.

Post-Roman Forced Conversions

Moving into the 15th century, we happen upon the afore-mentioned Spanish Inquisition, which was instituted by the Catholic throne of Spain and focused specifically on Jews.  Anyone convicted of secretly practicing Judaism, and therefore denying the deity of Jesus, would receive the same punishment as the victims of the prior inquisitions had gotten.

The following century was when forced conversion to Christianity spread to other continents and people.  The Spanish Requirement of 1513 stated that it was the Spanish crown's position that it was its right, backed by the pope and therefore the Roman Catholic god, to conquer the native people and territory in North and South America, and force them to convert to their version of Christianity.

In addition to native Americans who were forced to convert, the same practice was engaged in among Africans who were captured as slaves by Western Europeans.  Under threat of torture, African slaves were forced to abandon their previous beliefs that they held prior to enslavement in favor of the "loving and merciful" god of their captors.

As previously stated, most modern-day Catholics will easily lie about and totally condemn these methods of proselytization.  That doesn't erase the history, however.  The fact remains that Catholicism became the dominant religion in Europe and the Americas not by the quality of its doctrine or the proof of its superiority as a philosophy, but by the strength of its political and military might -- conversion by the sword.

Constantine did not "establish the Holy Roman Empire in 325 [AD] and made Christianity the official state religion." He merely legalized Christianity in the Roman Empire. Christianity become the official state religion on February 27th 380 AD, under Emperor Theodosius I. Constantine's Faithfulness to the Catholic Faith is highly dubious and controversial, he didn't like the condemnation of Arianism by the Ecumenical Council of Nicaea, as allegedly, he wanted Catholics to be unified and thus, a unifying force in his Empire. He gave support to the Arians after the Council of Nicaea and disturbingly, was actually baptized by Arian Bishop towards the end of his life.

The Vandals, Heruli, and Ostrogoths weren't pagan at this time, they were Arian and thus, extremely hostile to the Catholic Church; indeed towards the end of the reign of Theodoric the Great, Ostrogothic Italy was on the verge a huge persecution of the Catholic Faithful, and only his death prevented that persecution form breaking out. The Vandals laid siege to the city of Hippo in the spring of 430 to kill of a famous Catholic Bishop, Saint Augustine, who later became a Father and Doctor of the Church. Upon receiving word of the Saint's death, the Vandals lifted their siege of Hippo for a brief period of time, but then came back and sacked the city not long afterwards. Genocidal warfare was merely a continuation of the status-quo of Antiquity, that's why the only surviving indigenous language of the Iberian Peninsula, is the Basque language. (We'll discuss the Basque people later on, they're noteworthy for this response.) The Catholic Church did not "bless" the violent warfare of this time period, it merely tolerated it, both because it had it's hands full with other matters within Rome and the Church, and because kicking the blood-thirsty habit of ancient warfare would simply take a long time, it's not something one can give up overnight. (especially when the other side still likes to engage in it as well) Also, the Heruli weren't wiped-out by the Romans, they were wiped-out by the Lombards during their invasion of Italy; the Lombards were either pagans or Arians at this time.

The story of Blessed Charlemagne Augustus' forced conversion and extermination of Saxons is a complete and total myth. What really happened was that Blessed Charlemagne made an alliance with the Saxons in which they swore an oath to assist Emperor Charlemagne in battle. In the battle that followed, the Saxons did not assist Blessed Charlemagne and his troops, but merely stood on the sidelines and watched, this was an act of treason, a crime still punishable by death in Canada and the United States today, as well as many other countries. After the battle, Blessed Charlemagne arranged to have the Saxons executed, again, for treason; however before the Saxons were put to death, Blessed Charlemagne offered the Saxons baptism and promised to pardon them of the crime of treason if they got baptized. This is not act an of forced conversion, this an act of mercy, Blessed Charlemagne is not threatening the Saxons with execution for their refusal to become Christian, he's offering the Saxons, already condemned to death for treason a way out, if only they accept baptism. Tragically, the Saxons all refused and opted instead to accept their execution, as punishment for their crime of treason in battle.

All these lies about the Inquisitions are complete garbage. One of the first things an Inquisitor does with the accused is investigate to see if the accused has any noteworthy enemies who would profit from the accused's demise. Torture was indeed applied during Inquisitions, but torture was common place in the Middle Ages in general. While the death penalty was one punishment for the guilty during the Inquisitions, other penalties were also prescribed, including acts of penance such as helping to build a Church or go on a Crusade. I can't find the original video, but someone compared the number of deaths per month in the modern US Justice System with the number of deaths per month during the Medieval Inquisitions, he found, based on my memory, that the number of executions per month in the Modern US Justice System is around 30 I think, while during the Medieval Inquisitions, it was I think, 12, 13, 14 or 15 executions per month.

A Crusade is war to defend Christian minority populations in non-Christian lands; the most famous of course being the ones waged in the Middle East, the Holy Land obviously, but other parts of the Middle East as well, the Fourth Crusade was supposed to help rescue Christians in Egypt before it turned really, really, really bad. Not all the wars waged in the Baltic Region at that time were crusades, but the two that were mentioned here, the Prussian and Lithuanian Crusades were. The Prussian Crusade was called because Poland was at war with the Prussians, and the Prussians would pillage and burn Polish Churches; but more scandalously, at one point during the war, the Prussians attacked the Christianizing Regions of Chelmno Land and Pomerellia, and drove the natives there, out of Christianity and back into paganism.

In Lithuania, Christianity was already present in the region for sometime, as evidenced by the fact that one-third of Lithuanian surnames can be traced back to an Old-Chruch Slavonic etymology. The reluctance to convert among the Grand Dukes of Lithuania, was more of a political motivation than a devotion to the pagan gods; this is because Lithuania was situated between the Catholics on the west, and the Orthodox on the east; thus the Grand Dukes used the potential of converting to one side or the other, as a bargaining chip to get the best the deals out of both sides. By the reign of Wlaslaw III Jagiello, Christianity had already become the majority religion among the Lithuanians, albeit, this is partially because the Grand Duchy had expanded into lands dominated by Slavic Christians. Jagiello decided marry Saint Hedwig of Poland and become a baptized Christian in Communion with Rome. Ironically, the most famous battle of the Lithuanian Crusade, the battle of Grunwald or Tannenberg, happened after Jagiello and Lithuania converted to the Catholic Faith. Even more ironically, the last stronghold of paganism in Lithuania, the Duchy of Samogatia, also converted to Christianity after the defeat of the Crusader knights at Tannenberg.

I'll continue the rest of my response tomorrow, it's getting awfully late here; remember what I said about the Basque people and the Basque language, I'm going to be talking about them in my conclusion tomorrow.


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"O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to Thee, and all those who do not have recourse to Thee, especially all enemies of the Church, and all those recommended to Thee."

-Modified version of Saint Maximilian Kolbe's Miraculous Medal Prayer


Glory to God
and
Hail Mary!


Greatshield17
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10 Jun 2020, 9:42 pm

Fnord wrote:
The following century was when forced conversion to Christianity spread to other continents and people.  The Spanish Requirement of 1513 stated that it was the Spanish crown's position that it was its right, backed by the pope and therefore the Roman Catholic god, to conquer the native people and territory in North and South America, and force them to convert to their version of Christianity.

In addition to native Americans who were forced to convert, the same practice was engaged in among Africans who were captured as slaves by Western Europeans.  Under threat of torture, African slaves were forced to abandon their previous beliefs that they held prior to enslavement in favor of the "loving and merciful" god of their captors.

As previously stated, most modern-day Catholics will easily lie about and totally condemn these methods of proselytization.  That doesn't erase the history, however.  The fact remains that Catholicism became the dominant religion in Europe and the Americas not by the quality of its doctrine or the proof of its superiority as a philosophy, but by the strength of its political and military might -- conversion by the sword.


Skipping the Spanish Inquisition because that Black Legend has already been debunked.

Before I address more of the Black Legend, in regards to the colonization of the Americas, I want to address something very disturbing that you said; "Roman Catholic [G]od" that is a very disturbing thing to say, both Protestants and Catholics recognize the Dogma of the Trinity and thus, recognize the same Triune God of Israel. (There's a lot more going on underneath, but I'll spare everyone the complex Theology for now.) To suggest that Catholics and Protestants don't believe in the same God, can possibly be an attack on the Dogma of the Trinity itself, a dogma that is one of the bare-minimum requirements of belief for being a Christian. Thus, suggesting that Catholics don't worship the same God as Protestants actually puts into question your own Christian faith! But I'm not here to question your Christian faith, I'm here to merely debunk your quite frankly bigoted, anti-Catholic propaganda.

When Pope Alexander VI issued the Papal Bull Inter Caetera, he believed he was giving the Spanish a handful of tiny islands in the middle of the Atlantic, he had no idea that there were two entire continents out there, no one did; as is proven by the fact that when the Spanish discovered Florida, they believed it was just a big island, not a peninsula of an entire continent. Because the indigenous peoples of the islands had not yet reached a level of statehood, the Pope and Spanish Monarchs believed that the indigenous peoples did not have a claim to sovereignty rights, (although it is unclear, how much autonomy the Bull strips from the indigenous peoples) but instead should fall under the sovereignty to the Kingdom of Spain. Should the Pope and the Spanish Monarchs have respected and granted the sovereignty rights on the indigenous peoples, and simply stuck to evangelization and supporting the indigenous peoples in developing their own nation-state? Perhaps, but even if the Pope and the Spanish Monarchs erred in claiming sovereignty over the indigenous peoples, they didn't totally subjugate them. Again yes, as I said in my previous post, there were a fair amount of abuses inflicted on the indigenous peoples, but it was nowhere near what the Protestant Black Legend claims it to be. The Spanish Empire established the Republica de los Indios, a kind of administration system that gave the indigenous peoples a significant amount of autonomy and protection from abuse. The Republica de los Indios lasted until the Bourbon Reforms which stripped the indigenous peoples of much of their autonomy; later, the wars of independence demolished the last remnants of the Republica de los Indios, as the revolutionaries believed that the indigenous peoples should leave behind their "backwards ways" and become "enlightened" citizens of their new republics. Also, up here in Canada, when the French arrived, they seemed to aim for lands that, to them, seemed unclaimed; and showed some respect for the sovereignty of some of the more settled indigenous nations. When the Canadian Martyrs (Also known as the North American Martyrs, some of my favourite Saints, I find their actions very inspiring) went to out to evangelize the Hurons, they had travel a bit from the colony to reach the Huron Nation; and when Eustace Ahatsistari, one of the Huron chiefs (and a man who should be canonized) converted, the Canadian Martyrs didn't go like, "okay, now you have to submit yourself to the King of France and make everyone of your people French," nor did they, for that matter say, "Okay Chief Eustace, you have to make everyone of your people Christian and if anyone refuses, scalp them! like you do your Iroquois enemies!"

We'll set aside the controversy surrounding the Catholic Church's tolerance (not "blessing," tolerance) of slavery for now, because if we do get into it, what's to stop us from bring up the Bible's tolerance of slavery? (Then again, St. Paul was a Catholic bishop, so it's basically the same topic.) The Africans were already slaves when they were received by the Europeans and thus, under the secular norms of the day, already lacked human rights. The Church's requirement for African slaves to be taught the Catholic Faith wasn't them taking advantage of the situation, but on the contrary restricting it. The Church's requirement for African slaves to be taught the Catholic Faith, was a restriction on slave owners, and an effort to preserve whatever human rights the slaves have left. You see, the Catholic definition of religious liberty is not just the right of a human person not to be forced or coerced into any religion, but also the right of a human person to know the True Religion; if a child is raised by Catholic parents and those parents refuse to teach that child the Catholic Faith, those parents are violating that child's right to religious liberty. So the Church's requirement for African slaves to learn the Catholic Faith was an effort to preserve the slaves' human rights, the Church also enforced other requirements to preserve the rights of African slaves. For example, in the secular racist norms of the day, half-blacks and blacks with some white blood were worth more than those that were "pure" black thus, slave-owners would often copulate with African slave woman and then sell their offspring on the market for more money; to prevent this abuse, the Church ruled that any child born conceived by intercourse between a slave-owner and a slave must be raised as a free person.

Claiming that the only way the Catholic Faith spread wass by sword point, is probably the lowest, most intellectually shallow and psychologically crude form of anti-Catholic bigotry outside of explicit profanity, blasphemy and violence. The Catholic Church has employed many methods to bring people the Gospel, force and coercion was not and has never been one of them. In my previous post, I mentioned the Basque people and the fact that their language was the only surviving indigenous language of the Iberian peninsula. The Basque people are actually some of my ancestors, I'm a descendant of the Basque people, look up our history do you see any record of the Basque people being forced to accept the Catholic Faith? No? I didn't think so, because we weren't forced to convert to the Catholic Faith, we received missionaries who preached to us over the years and slowly, we accepted the Faith. Our language which survived the pagan Roman conquest, wasn't wiped out by the non-existent cultural imperialism of the Holy Roman Empire, but actually diversified into several unique dialects. Our autonomy wasn't stripped from us and our homelands colonized but rather, we saw gained our own medieval state, the Kingdom of Navarre:
Image
We did eventually lose our Kingdom, but it was for secular political reasons, not because of again, non-existent Catholic cultural imperialism. The only time we were persecuted for our culture and language was first, during the French Revolution, when those of us who living in the French part of our homeland were forced to speak in French and stopping speak in Basque. The French Revolutionary Government cracked-down on minority languages like Basque and Occitan in an effort unify the people under their Republic, and also probably to separate people from their traditions in order to make them forget l'ancien regime and submit to the "enlightened" ideals of the new republic. The second episode of cultural persecution occurred in Spain under the regime of Francisco Franco. Franco opposed the policy of Hispanidad, "Hispanicity," which pushed for a unified Spain under one language and culture; which is actually quite a difficult task to undertake because Spain is actually quite a diverse place, there are several unique ethnicities present there. The results were devastating and tragic, the population of those speaking the Basque language plummeted, and the Basque people were scandalized by the ordeal and many of them apostatized from the Faith; the number of Catholics among today's Basque people, is tragically few in number.

During the infamous Bombing of Guernica, Franco's troops planned to destroy the Oak of Biscay, a special Oak Tree under which the Lord of Biscay, in Medieval times, would swear his oath to uphold the rights and freedoms of the Basque people. The Oak had become a symbol for the Basque Communist faction in the Spanish Civil War thus, Franco's troops sought to destroy it. However when the Basque that were serving under the Carolist portion of Franco's army, (the Carolists were a Traditional Catholic party that sought keep the Traditional Catholic policies of upholding local culture) heard of the plans of Franco's army, they detached themselves from Franco's troops and surrounded the tree, not letting anyone go near it!

The word Catholic means both, "universal" and "according to the whole." The Catholic Faith is for everyone, for all nations, for all humanity, that's why I quite vehemently oppose terms like "western values," "western culture" and "western civilization," these values aren't of or for the western part of Eurasia, they're for all of humanity. (not to mention Socialism, Communism, and Marxism are western inventions) The Catholic Faith envelopes all cultures and enriches them, it helps people live in a way that is in best accord with their human nature. May the Lord give me the grace to be always grateful for being a member this Faith, the One True Faith!


_________________
"O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to Thee, and all those who do not have recourse to Thee, especially all enemies of the Church, and all those recommended to Thee."

-Modified version of Saint Maximilian Kolbe's Miraculous Medal Prayer


Glory to God
and
Hail Mary!


aghogday
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11 Jun 2020, 5:15 pm

^^^
One
True Faith
Is LoVE NoW at
Least According
to a Good Cop Version
of Jesus; the rest oF iT
Is Brick And Mortar; Empty Chalices;
Golden Robes With No Soul; And Yes
Again
Corner
Stone
of LoVE
(Tree oF LiFE)


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Greatshield17
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11 Jun 2020, 7:31 pm

aghogday wrote:
^^^
One
True Faith
Is LoVE NoW at
Least According
to a Good Cop Version
of Jesus; the rest oF iT
Is Brick And Mortar; Empty Chalices;
Golden Robes With No Soul; And Yes
Again
Corner
Stone
of LoVE
(Tree oF LiFE)

Yes, without Love, all is but a clanging cymbal, to paraphrase Saint Paul. Without Love, the Chalices will indeed be empty and not full of the Sacrificial Blood of Christ.

Sacred Heart of Jesus, have Mercy on us!
Precious Blood of Christ, Save us!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, Holy Mother of God and Our Own Dear Blessed Mother, pray for us!


_________________
"O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to Thee, and all those who do not have recourse to Thee, especially all enemies of the Church, and all those recommended to Thee."

-Modified version of Saint Maximilian Kolbe's Miraculous Medal Prayer


Glory to God
and
Hail Mary!