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simonthesly74
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09 Feb 2021, 8:42 am

I feel like for “autistic guilt” to really be a thing, we would’ve had to have historically had advantages in society on account of our neurological condition. Which is most decidedly not the case.

I’m white. I don’t feel guilty for being white, because you have no control over what race you are born. I also don’t have any problems admitting that because I’m white, I have the privilege of not facing discrimination based on my skin color. (I’m also a heterosexual cisgender male— I would be the stereotypical “ultimate privileged” member of society if not for the way my brain was wired.)



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13 Feb 2021, 8:33 pm

carlos55 wrote:
Whale_Tuune wrote:
PS: (As a sidenote, there is actually a growing trend in leftist circles to "cancel" anyone who accidentally makes a misstep, which very much impacts those of us with low social intuition, be we "Autistic" or not. I have no idea how to bring this up as a problem without coming across as insensitive to PoC or LGBT groups that deal with microaggressions. It's something that I agonize over constantly. Is cancel culture "ableist" or am I just insensitive? :T)


The woke culture doesn’t really work well with autism or many other brain disorders like Tourette’s for example, as we lack the social awareness to self-check our behaviour.
Neither one of you lacks social intuition or awareness so badly that you cannot check yourselves. Since you both claim to know that you lack social intuition, then you can simply stop publicly giving your opinion on social issues. If you're truly impaired that way, your opinions are likely to be wrong anyhow, so why share them? Take responsibility for your own limitations. People who don't know you can't do anything about it, so I see no point it bringing it up except with people with whom you interact regularly so that maybe they can accommodate you.

Speaking of lack of social intuition, carlos55, are you aware that "identity politics" is a term that has negative connotations? Not parroting lingo is another way to avoid being misunderstood or "cancelled" for lack of social intuition. Just state your case in plain English and describe exactly what you mean.

Also your statement that "we" used to see people as humans is blatantly false. Throughout history and throughout the world, groups of people have been seen by others as sub-human. And people have and still are seen in terms of groups rather than as individual humans: racial groups, ethnic groups, etc. That's literally the basis of racism. I'm sure you know this, so your comment comes off as dishonest.

As for the thread topic, considering oneself to be part of a group is totally different from being assigned by other people to a group or being considered guilty by other people, so the "danger" of group guilt doesn't seem like a real issue to me.

And y'all need to differentiate between legitimate opinions and sjw BS.


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13 Feb 2021, 9:55 pm

I have a feeling that a lot of the disagreement in this thread stems not necessarily from actual disagreement in theory, but from the (inescapably loaded) word "guilt". I don't think that feeling or encouraging guilt for something a person has never done themselves is ever a good thing. On the other hand though, class and racial privilege most definitely exists. I can't see how any sane and even minimally-informed person could deny this obvious reality in good faith.

And that's the thing, I don't feel like most of those here who disagree with statements about privilege actually believe it doesn't exist. I think it boils down to the connotation that the word apparently has gathered: a demand for some display of guilt or submission. I'm not American, and I don't even touch "social media", so I'm not sure how that connotation could have come about, but it seems to be there. It's like people take the word as a punch in the gut for some reason. Things tend to go downhill in (attempted) conversation when that happens.

When it comes to comparisons between supposed "NT privilege" and class/race dis/advantage though, I think the analogy is fundamentally flawed. Autistic people aren't and were never cast aside, subjugated or singled out in society as a group. Each one of us is independently disadvantaged. That's very different from racism. A black person is disadvantaged not even just from birth, but really since before even being conceived, and that generally applies to the whole family, who might otherwise have been able to offer support with it. An autistic person's disadvantage arises from their condition, and is at least partly unavoidable due the disability itself.

Personally, I don't feel any guilt for my race/gender/whatever, and I really don't think I or anyone else should. I do, however, feel thankful for my luck. If things haven't been ideal in my life, they would still have been much worse if I hadn't had this luck of having the origins that I do. I think this deserves to be remembered often. It's unpleasant to face it, and it's not ideal to be forced to think about people in terms of race etc when you just want to think of them as people. But it's necessary, and it's not nearly as unpleasant as being on the receiving end of racism, I'm sure.

I experienced (relatively mild) xenophobia first-hand for a couple months once and, yeah, it's not fun. Apart from the obvious effect on concrete opportunities, it just keeps you on edge. It builds insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. I wouldn't wish a lifetime of that on anyone.


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Whale_Tuune
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22 Feb 2021, 4:48 pm

Quote:
When it comes to comparisons between supposed "NT privilege" and class/race dis/advantage though, I think the analogy is fundamentally flawed. Autistic people aren't and were never cast aside, subjugated or singled out in society as a group. Each one of us is independently disadvantaged. That's very different from racism. A black person is disadvantaged not even just from birth, but really since before even being conceived, and that generally applies to the whole family, who might otherwise have been able to offer support with it. An autistic person's disadvantage arises from their condition, and is at least partly unavoidable due the disability itself.


This is a good point. Many "activists" *cough*NickWalkerandJohnMarble*cough* rely heavily on analogies with racial and ethnic minorities. I've said time and again that you cannot rely on that analogy.

I'm still trying to figure out how I feel about ASD identity politics, and to what extent it's useful.


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22 Feb 2021, 6:12 pm

simonthesly74 wrote:
I feel like for “autistic guilt” to really be a thing, we would’ve had to have historically had advantages in society on account of our neurological condition. Which is most decidedly not the case.
)


Yes. Its a dumb phrase. But you cant expect members of an internet forum to all be slick magazine grade professional wordsmiths who can cast accurate, but sublime phrases.

Calling the issue "autistic guilt" sounds like youre making an analogy to "White guilt"(for American slavery, colonialism etc), or to "German guilt"(for the war and the Holocaust). When in fact the OP of this thread was using the phrase to mean something very different. He was talking about autistics feeling guilty about being handicapped. Very different from what it sounded like he was saying (that autistics are somehow analogous to a powerful group that is able to oppress other groups).

He shoulda crafted a different phrase. Maybe "autistic shame"?



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22 Feb 2021, 8:17 pm

toadsnail wrote:
When it comes to comparisons between supposed "NT privilege" and class/race dis/advantage though, I think the analogy is fundamentally flawed. Autistic people aren't and were never cast aside, subjugated or singled out in society as a group. Each one of us is independently disadvantaged. That's very different from racism. A black person is disadvantaged not even just from birth, but really since before even being conceived, and that generally applies to the whole family, who might otherwise have been able to offer support with it. An autistic person's disadvantage arises from their condition, and is at least partly unavoidable due the disability itself.

Being black has been known about forever because it is usually obvious a person is black. Knowledge about autism is very recent. That has led to different disadvantages. I would say not knowing I was autistic until age 55 was a significant disadvantage. People usually do not deny your blackness or belittle you by saying you are a high-functioning black. Behavioral therapies to make you less black are not considered the gold standard treatment. I am not playing the "oppression Olympics" game of my disadvantage is worse than yours. It is just to point out that the disadvantages, discrimination, stigmas we face as autistics should not be denied or shrugged off, or minimized.


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22 Feb 2021, 8:38 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Being black has been known about forever because it is usually obvious a person is black. Knowledge about autism is very recent. That has led to different disadvantages. I would say not knowing I was autistic until age 55 was a significant disadvantage. People usually do not deny your blackness or belittle you by saying you are a high-functioning black. Behavioral therapies to make you less black are not considered the gold standard treatment. I am not playing the "oppression Olympics" game of my disadvantage is worse than yours. It is just to point out that the disadvantages, discrimination, stigmas we face as autistics should not be denied or shrugged off, or minimized.

I came to this thread because of a comment in another thread about the "race privilege" thing being discussed here, so I ended up writing my post mostly around it, but when it comes to that idea of "NT privilege", then the things you outlined are actually the main reason why I seriously dislike the concept. Because it suggests that social acceptance is all it takes to "cure" autism, and that's just pure bullsh!t.

Acceptance in itself is good, that's for sure, but autism is still a medical condition. My senses still conspire against me every hour of every day, and no amount of acceptance is going to change that. It hurts my cause when someone purportedly representing me suggests otherwise. I mean, imagine if universal acceptance were indeed achieved, with that expectation of autism just going *poof*, all rainbows, how would people then treat all of the presumably lazy ones who would still be impaired, right?


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Last edited by toadsnail on 22 Feb 2021, 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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22 Feb 2021, 10:26 pm

Quote:
Being black has been known about forever because it is usually obvious a person is black. Knowledge about autism is very recent. That has led to different disadvantages. I would say not knowing I was autistic until age 55 was a significant disadvantage. People usually do not deny your blackness or belittle you by saying you are a high-functioning black. Behavioral therapies to make you less black are not considered the gold standard treatment. I am not playing the "oppression Olympics" game of my disadvantage is worse than yours. It is just to point out that the disadvantages, discrimination, stigmas we face as autistics should not be denied or shrugged off, or minimized.


I don't think any of us on WP would deny how difficult "being Autistic" (whatever that means) is; I would only contest the constant analogies to racial and ethnic minorities that are used in these conversations. I don't know how many times I've seen people like John Marble, Nick Walker, and Simon Baron-Cohen comparing "cure advocates" with the Third Reich. (I don't promote the idea of a cure-all because I think there isn't one cause of "Autism", and thus no "cure" is possible. But I don't think cure advocates are Nazis.)

Quote:
Because it suggests that social acceptance is all it takes to "cure" autism, and that's just pure bullsh!t.


Wouldn't that be great if it were true? I've seen wokie NTs getting all up in this neurodiversity thing without the first idea what they're talking about, then act catty and rude to me because of traits that got me diagnosed with Autism in the first place. It's a great look for NTs who want to show off how woke they are without doing anything substantial to help us.


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23 Feb 2021, 6:13 am

Instead of comparison with the black civil rights movement better but certainly not perfect comparison is with LGBTQ advocacy. At one time mainstream thought was that their core behaviors are wrong and sick(DSM said so) and conversion therapies were done. Some of that demographic are able to successfully pretend to be straight or cisgender.

Who they are does cause disadvantages unrelated to discrimination. Smaller dating pool, starting a family often does happen without the easiest way which is get partner pregnant.


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23 Feb 2021, 12:58 pm

Whale_Tuune wrote:
Quote:
Being black has been known about forever because it is usually obvious a person is black. Knowledge about autism is very recent. That has led to different disadvantages. I would say not knowing I was autistic until age 55 was a significant disadvantage. People usually do not deny your blackness or belittle you by saying you are a high-functioning black. Behavioral therapies to make you less black are not considered the gold standard treatment. I am not playing the "oppression Olympics" game of my disadvantage is worse than yours. It is just to point out that the disadvantages, discrimination, stigmas we face as autistics should not be denied or shrugged off, or minimized.


I don't think any of us on WP would deny how difficult "being Autistic" (whatever that means) is; I would only contest the constant analogies to racial and ethnic minorities that are used in these conversations. I don't know how many times I've seen people like John Marble, Nick Walker, and Simon Baron-Cohen comparing "cure advocates" with the Third Reich. (I don't promote the idea of a cure-all because I think there isn't one cause of "Autism", and thus no "cure" is possible. But I don't think cure advocates are Nazis.)

Quote:
Because it suggests that social acceptance is all it takes to "cure" autism, and that's just pure bullsh!t.


Wouldn't that be great if it were true? I've seen wokie NTs getting all up in this neurodiversity thing without the first idea what they're talking about, then act catty and rude to me because of traits that got me diagnosed with Autism in the first place. It's a great look for NTs who want to show off how woke they are without doing anything substantial to help us.


Nick Walker is just the Alex Jones style shock jock of the autism world. He says all these things like he`s invoking a high power, like its burned into some great scrolls of the human constitution that dictates people shouldn’t be allowed to change the way they are born.

He forgot himself that he is a member of the LGBT community and if he suggested men shouldn’t be allowed to be women would be condemned as a bigot. He doesn’t realise that the desire for a cure for autism is simply based on individual and society demand on a basic problem / solution basis.

Demand from some autistics who want to be cured. Demand from society to improve the outlook and rescue kids & adults who want it or are severely disabled.

These two facts will never change so he can preach all he likes especially to those who get into debt by paying extortionate course fees to his uni, for courses he teaches that qualify them for very little in the outside world.



simonthesly74
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26 Feb 2021, 8:23 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
simonthesly74 wrote:
I feel like for “autistic guilt” to really be a thing, we would’ve had to have historically had advantages in society on account of our neurological condition. Which is most decidedly not the case.
)


Yes. Its a dumb phrase. But you cant expect members of an internet forum to all be slick magazine grade professional wordsmiths who can cast accurate, but sublime phrases.

Calling the issue "autistic guilt" sounds like youre making an analogy to "White guilt"(for American slavery, colonialism etc), or to "German guilt"(for the war and the Holocaust). When in fact the OP of this thread was using the phrase to mean something very different. He was talking about autistics feeling guilty about being handicapped. Very different from what it sounded like he was saying (that autistics are somehow analogous to a powerful group that is able to oppress other groups).

He shoulda crafted a different phrase. Maybe "autistic shame"?

Yeah, that would make more sense.



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27 Feb 2021, 6:16 am

Whale_Tuune wrote:
Wouldn't that be great if it were true? I've seen wokie NTs getting all up in this neurodiversity thing without the first idea what they're talking about, then act catty and rude to me because of traits that got me diagnosed with Autism in the first place. It's a great look for NTs who want to show off how woke they are without doing anything substantial to help us.


LOL! no arguments from this NT. Us "wokies" probably do need to know our limits.

I think NT privilege is much more obvious since 99% of NTs consider disability invisible. My own extended family pretend my daughter doesn't exist. At least her grandmother is making some effort now since I purchased a mobile phone and my daughter rings her every second night :lol:



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01 Mar 2021, 4:20 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
simonthesly74 wrote:
I feel like for “autistic guilt” to really be a thing, we would’ve had to have historically had advantages in society on account of our neurological condition. Which is most decidedly not the case.
)


Yes. Its a dumb phrase. But you cant expect members of an internet forum to all be slick magazine grade professional wordsmiths who can cast accurate, but sublime phrases.

Calling the issue "autistic guilt" sounds like youre making an analogy to "White guilt"(for American slavery, colonialism etc), or to "German guilt"(for the war and the Holocaust). When in fact the OP of this thread was using the phrase to mean something very different. He was talking about autistics feeling guilty about being handicapped. Very different from what it sounded like he was saying (that autistics are somehow analogous to a powerful group that is able to oppress other groups).

He shoulda crafted a different phrase. Maybe "autistic shame"?


Very bizarre you initially state what I very obviously originally meant on page 1 i.e., the dangers of group identity as mentioned in my attached Jordan Peterson YouTube clip, then claim I meant something very different, i.e., disabled people should feel guilty or ashamed for being disabled.

Something I would never say. Maybe read page 1 again for clarification.