Rant: I firmly condemn BLM and its actions!

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cyberdad
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01 Jul 2020, 1:51 am

Greatshield17 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I visited the monasteries in San Luis Obispo and San Diego that Serra built when travelling with my parents in California 1980. The monks seemed quite pious and I can actually remember prominent statues of Serra in San Luis Obispo over a fountain (so my experience with this saint actually predates your birth goldenshields).

You never asked me what I thought of the removal of statues (you assumed I was siding with the native Americans when infact all I was doing was reporting how they felt about Serra and their motive/intent behind removing his statues.

I think removing the statues of Serra also removes historical artifacts. I would instead include a plaque commemorating all the Indians who he enslaved so visitors in future can learn more about the true impact of his missions.

How is it that those monks weren't enslaved and yet the indigenous peoples were?

Read my arguments.


I have read your arguments but as everyone has already stated they are based on your theological belief. You need to meet people half-way and acknowledge that human beings (in this context native americans in California) feel hurt by historic injustice.



aghogday
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01 Jul 2020, 10:46 am

Greatshield17 wrote:
aghogday wrote:


Love is the Real Gold Dust Born of Star Breath.

Truly Nothing is Our Own; But That Breath, Living Or Living Dead Now, Within;
As We May Give And Share It With All Others; Yes, The Rest of Living Nature With Least Harm..:)

Some say Godzilla actually represented the trauma of the Japanese people, after President Truman decided it would be perfectly moral to harness the power of splitting a "grain of stardust" to incinerate thousands innocent Japanese civilians. (As well as demolish what was then, the biggest Cathedral in all of Asia, as one guy put it, "Truman was able to accomplish in a few minutes, what centuries of persecution under the Japanese Shoguns failed to accomplish!" America, *censored* yeah!! !) The Venerable Archbishop Fulton Sheen said that this act, and its disregard for human life, marked the beginning of the modern day culture of death, a culture where bodies and souls are disregarded and the toll of deliberate deaths surpasses any atrocity (except the contemporary Communist regimes of the 20th Century) in the past. (I'm not adding this to draw attention away from St. Junipero's Missions by the way, if anything given the comments I'm receiving I much rather that people on here pay much more attention to this because they're not; I'm just adding this because I think it's noteworthy.) But the Americans weren't done yet, they then bombed the northern city of Akita just before the end of the war; again totally disregarding the fact that it was a civilian target and killing thousands of men, women and children. It's interesting to note that something very interesting happened in Akita several decades later, something that most Catholics, myself included, believe is no coincidence:




"Love is the Real Gold
Dust Born of Star Breath"

Part of the Reason i Go Digging Through
Mountains of Words Is Really No Different than
'California Dreaming' And Searching For Gold, Now.

Creativity; True Original Creativity, TakeS UNlimited
Focus in Flow; And Must Never Limit Horizons or Shores
to 'this or that' 'Religion', Exclusive to Other Religions that
Is A Basic Nature of Human Being Indeed. This is why Truly
Original Creativity is so Rare; It Goes Beyond 'The Normal
Bounds' of Human Nature, in General; As All Social Animals
Bond and Bind over the Similar; With or Without Language/Cultural Clothes to Enhance This Propensity.

The Globe Is Big Enough Now For Truly Original And Creative Artists to Find Pockets of
Support For the Most Unique Ways of Creating Art, Never, Ever, Seen Before on this Planet.

Search All Around the Globe And You Will Never Find Free Verse Poetry Like this for You
See i Never Went to School for it; Never took a Class; And Refuse Any Instruction for You
See This is
Only the
'SonG oF mY SoUL"
This Voice is Only my Gold, Mine;
And This Quote, "Love is the Real Gold
Dust Born of Star Breath"; But You See, if
i Excluded You From My Mountain of Love
As It's True i See the Whole Mountain As 'Gold
Dust of Love' and not Just 'this or that' Human
Being and or Religion Alone;
That Quote
Would Have
Never Come
to Fruition Without
Your Point of View to
Inspire the Birth of More Words of Gold (Love) God;
If You Really Believe God Is Love; Jesus Is Love; Mary Is Love;
We Hold No Difference; Even if all three Characters are only
A Story and Never Lived; The Same Will Apply to Krishna,
Buddha, Muhammad, And Lao Tzu too; Science Shows that
A Story That We Believe With Imagination, We Feed on From
Others Or Create Ourselves Is No Different than
The Reality of A Stone;
For It is Our
Minds Now
That Create
That Stone
From Only
The Similar Sub-Atomic
Particles That Create Me and You too.

We Human Beings Have The Ability to Imagine
And Create Epic Human Realities, Indeed; but We
Have to Be Willing to Accept the Thorns With the Flowers For Rose too;
Yes, Every once in A While, i come ACross Ignorance too Blind to See; even
Intolerance for Difference; but You See, if one tries to understand the Language
of the Other; Like When i Public Dance Now 13,353 Miles in 'Trump Town USA' in 82
Months And someone May Wanna Shoot Me for my Graceful Ballet, for i am way too Strong
And Big By Empirical Measure to only Defeat With Fisticuffs As that Ballet is Human, 245.6
Pounds, Additionally, at Max of 1520 All American Pounds of Leg Pressing Martial Arts too; i
Understand Their Password to Peace; All i have to Say is the 'Magic Man's Name, JESUS And the situation is
resolved without
even needing
to show
them what
i else i can
do if i have to
Whip out my 6 inch
Smart Phone Screen to
Show them what just one
of my Kicks Would End Like
From the Other End Over Almost A Ton of Iron.
It's so much Easier to Just Say, 'Do You Believe in Jesus'.
Jesus is as Real as Loving Breath When Real. It doesn't Matter
If A 'Prince of Peace' lived or not; When all i have to do is mention
The Word; A Breathing Statue Jesus; to Attain Peace With No Potential of killing
anyone with
Just
one
Martial
Arts Kick
in Standing
Ground Defense for
the Safety of my Existence.

Humans Are Evolved for Religion;
Only the Most Ignorant of Human
Beings Try to Live a Life of No Meaning
And Purpose in Holy And Sacred Bliss of Existence;
No Matter if the Group is as Large as only One Human; or one Globe of Peace Worshipping the FLoWeR oF LoVE.

i have no problems, With Jesus, God, Or Mary as Long As All Three Are Exercised For The Meaning And Purpose of Love;

If IT Goes to Far to the Other Extreme; i keep 'The Shadow' of my Martial Arts Kicks Close As Defense, may come and go too.

Anyway, More Specific to Christianity; When i wasn't The Strongest Dude in the Room; When Everyone Told me
i did not Deserve to Exist for i did not Fit the Conformity of their Religious Ideals, Separate from Love About me;
When i didn't have Anyone to talk to; Not Even A Loving Pet to Hug; i Read those Gospels Like the Beatitudes
of Matthew And i found someone i could really respect in 'Trump Town USA', in the 70's and 80's; IT didn't
matter if Jesus Was Just a Story or Not; i had at Least One Imaginary Friend Who Believed in Folks Like me;
Damn Sure Better Than No Holy And Sacred Meaning and Purpose of Breath; And Just A Random
Soup of Nothingness
With No Colors
of Love At all;
Yes, its True
i Don't Give
An F
And
Do Give
An F;
Whether
Jesus is
A Story
or Just a little
Brown Dude From
Galilee Who Never Uttered
One Word of the Story Written
By Roman Speaking Greek Authors
Who Never Met the Illiterate Aramaic
Speaking Human Decades to Centuries
After he Died; The Story helped inspire me to Breathe Love.
Every Loving Story is Living Breath; Even A Statue With A Smile of Love.

"Love is the Real Gold
Dust Born of Star Breath"

It Doesn't Matter What You Look Like;
Who You Are; Or What Religion You
Belong to; this is how i see ALL (God)
of Existence; And You
helped me
come
up with
A Few Words to
Express it out of
A Mountain of Gold
in Love Seeking And Finding More.

Do Understand, at Best God Is Love, Jesus Is Love,
And Mary Is Love; Spirit And Father And Mother Of LoVE iN Action US;
No Matter What Flesh or Story They BReaTHE LoVE iS Real When Breath, US.

i spent close to 33 Months on this Internet Site; Before i felt A Holy Spirit of
Creativity Within again on February 28th, 2013, in a Private Message to an Only Facebook
Friend that became my First Blog Post on March 10th, the Beginning of 8.2 MiLLioN Words of
More Free Verse Poetry to come in a Longest Epic Long Form Poem Ever Now in 82 Months of
Effort Since that First Creative Holy Spirit Spark Within, 88 Months ago. Those 33 Months before
that Creative Spark Were Spent as a Shut-in in my bedroom With a Synergy of 19 Life Threatening
Disorders with No Prognosis For Recovery that i've detailed many Instances Before on this Internet
Site all the way through the Dark; the Light; and The Beyond Rainbow Colors Journey of mY Soul.

The 33 Months of that Before i visited This Internet Site; the Pain of Type Two Trigeminal Neuralgia
Actually assessed as the Suicide Disease as the Worst Pain Known to Humankind; Yes, Literally Worse
than the Torture of Real Crucifixion; for me like a Dentist Drill in my Right Eye And Ear with No Drug
That Would touch it From Wake to Sleep for more than the average Size of a Cross to Carry; there was
nothing i could do at all; Just Trapped Between My Ears, A Prisoner of my Soul Without Any Memory
of a Smile at all; Just Hell; No Reference point out; Eternally Now, then; Anyway, i did 66 Months in Real
Hell Within, And i got out; Before that folks Assessed me as A Valuable Commodity At Work With A Mind
That Worked Like a Computer; i was Assessed by More Poetic Hearts the Same way
When i communicated on this Internet Site for 33 Months too Before i regained
A Heart; A Spirit; A Soul; Yes, A Trinity of Colored Soul Again; And that Didn't
Really Come until Standing on a Beach, July 19th, 2013, One With Waves,
Swaying Sea Oats, Emerald Green Water, And Seagull Wings Spiraling
Around the Sun that Became Heaven Within Real as me; Since Then;
in a Public Dance Where i started From Scratch With No Lessons
not unlike all of these Free Verse Words In Meditative Flow as
A Dance No Different; the Feedback Wasn't
Always Stellar but as the Wings of my
Star of Creativity iN Dance Grew
the comments were not
always Ridiculous;
They evolved
to Audience Free
Feedback Like "You are
the Boss of Dance"; " Did You Know
You Are Famous, You Are all Over Facebook"; "You Are
my Spirit Animal'; "Icon of the City You Are Everywhere";
"You Are A Real Hero"; "You Are A Legend", Screaming
It At Me From Rolled Down Windows, Walking Back to My
Car Exhausted from a Marathon Dance of 3 Hours Straight;
Sure, Other Compliments Like a Car Load of Twenty-Something
Young Women Yelling for me to "Take off" My Shirt (i didn't butt
there are other avenues for that they asked for links to as well);
And It's true, While Walt Whitman Had A Woman Send Him a Letter
Offering to Bear A Child From Womb of Her; Let's Just Say Young Women
Up Close and Personal in Dance Have Demanded That From me in a Grinding
Way of Back to Front Dance; Butt You See, None of that Started Until i was 53;
A Miracle Happened on that Beach; all the Pain and Numb Melted AWay and i Left
The Old
Moldy
Cocoon
Behind
Never
to
Enter
it again;
Born Again;
It's A Real Deal my Friend;
But You Cannot Drop the Cross
You Have to Be Willing to Experience
Blood, Sweat, And Thorn Tears Before one Truly
Feels the Perfume of the Flowers RiSinG as Rose;
As Far as the Poetry Goes; the compliments come
like one of my Favorites; "Your Wife is the Luckiest
to be Married to someone as Poetic as You"; But No, She
doesn't like my Poetry; but i do not hold that against her Beauty.
Smiles, my FRiEnD, We All View Life Differently; The Key to Happiness is
Loving
Both the
Thorns
And Flowers
That Make RiSinG Roses Real;
This is How God comes to Be Free in US;
'California Dreaming' is As Real as We Make the Gold of LoVinG iT ALL.

The Greatest Gift of Life is to Love.
If A Statue of Mary is the only Thing
You Ever Love in Life As Essence of Love
You See And Experience As Real; You have
Achieved Much More in Life than Some folks
Never Feel
or Sense.

Life is
Breath
See it
Feel
it
All
Love It
ALL At Best..:)


_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick


Greatshield17
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Location: Columbia-Kootenay Region, British Columbia

01 Jul 2020, 8:13 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I visited the monasteries in San Luis Obispo and San Diego that Serra built when travelling with my parents in California 1980. The monks seemed quite pious and I can actually remember prominent statues of Serra in San Luis Obispo over a fountain (so my experience with this saint actually predates your birth goldenshields).

You never asked me what I thought of the removal of statues (you assumed I was siding with the native Americans when infact all I was doing was reporting how they felt about Serra and their motive/intent behind removing his statues.

I think removing the statues of Serra also removes historical artifacts. I would instead include a plaque commemorating all the Indians who he enslaved so visitors in future can learn more about the true impact of his missions.

How is it that those monks weren't enslaved and yet the indigenous peoples were?

Read my arguments.


I have read your arguments but as everyone has already stated they are based on your theological belief. You need to meet people half-way and acknowledge that human beings (in this context native americans in California) feel hurt by historic injustice.

But is the alleged injustice historical? And what about the beliefs of those who assert these allegations? (keeping in mind, that these allegations are being asserted by those who are not indigenous, in addition to those who are.)

Here's more historical evidence to consider, it was released today because today, in addition to being Canada Day up here, (Our Lady of the Cape, pray for Canada!) it is also the feast day of the Saint himself down in the US; it involves "theological belief," but I plea that you at least watch this video and consider what's being said:


_________________
Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."


goldfish21
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01 Jul 2020, 8:58 pm

I was going to point out the irony and hypocrisy of your rant in general due to Catholics coming to B.C. and destroying Indigenous landmarks & heritage sites, desecrating burial grounds, ruining wverything in their path as they also destroyed, kidnapped, raped, and murderer Indigenous people for centuries - but Fnord’s much more specific knowledge refutes your rant even better.

Fnord wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
... Yesterday, two statues of the great Saint Junipero Serra, were torn down and physically desecrated by raving BLM mobs and their allies. When I saw that, I was enraged...
So?  Junipero enslaved the local indigenous population to build his mission buildings, and forced them to convert to his religion so that his "numbers" would impress the Vatican leaders.  His statues should be torn down, along with every other monument to slavery and forced conversion, including those of the Confederacy and even many of those representing the Founding Fathers.

And no, it is not history that's being erased; it's the veneration of those who carried on as if people of color were lesser beings that is being erased -- one should no more venerate an image of Junipero Serra than one would venerate an image of Robert E. Lee or Pontius Pilate.

Besides, the veneration of images is idolatry.


Also, just for the record, I support BLM and this entire uprising movement of BIPOC people who’ve been oppressed by systemic racism and white supremacy for several hundred years - all of which, btw, was initiated by the Roman Catholic Church when they sanctioned the first slaves in Portugal.

Also for the record I’m a baptized Roman Catholic - but I have no qualms about saying anything about the horrible s**t they’ve done from slavery to residential schools to pedophilia etc. If they practiced what they preach instead of being assholes people wouldn’t have bad things to say about them. But they don’t and they’re responsible for an awful lot of terrible s**t throughout history.


_________________
No :heart: for supporting trump. Because doing so is deplorable.


cyberdad
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01 Jul 2020, 9:21 pm

Greatshield17 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I visited the monasteries in San Luis Obispo and San Diego that Serra built when travelling with my parents in California 1980. The monks seemed quite pious and I can actually remember prominent statues of Serra in San Luis Obispo over a fountain (so my experience with this saint actually predates your birth goldenshields).

You never asked me what I thought of the removal of statues (you assumed I was siding with the native Americans when infact all I was doing was reporting how they felt about Serra and their motive/intent behind removing his statues.

I think removing the statues of Serra also removes historical artifacts. I would instead include a plaque commemorating all the Indians who he enslaved so visitors in future can learn more about the true impact of his missions.

How is it that those monks weren't enslaved and yet the indigenous peoples were?

Read my arguments.


I have read your arguments but as everyone has already stated they are based on your theological belief. You need to meet people half-way and acknowledge that human beings (in this context native americans in California) feel hurt by historic injustice.

But is the alleged injustice historical? And what about the beliefs of those who assert these allegations? (keeping in mind, that these allegations are being asserted by those who are not indigenous, in addition to those who are.)

Here's more historical evidence to consider, it was released today because today, in addition to being Canada Day up here, (Our Lady of the Cape, pray for Canada!) it is also the feast day of the Saint himself down in the US; it involves "theological belief," but I plea that you at least watch this video and consider what's being said:


I took the trouble to watch but Christian Clifford said three things that corresponds to what we are saying
1. Spain used mass conversion in California to justify colonies that could resist british and Russian imperial ambitions
2. Soldiers permitted those converted to return to their villages to visit their families but if they stayed too long they were forced back to the missions with threat of violence
3. The missions run by Serra were concerned that those forcibly converted would slip back to their "heathen" ways and so they felt it necessary to use the military to enforce their will which was they felt was divine in the service of the church and god.



Greatshield17
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Joined: 14 Sep 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia-Kootenay Region, British Columbia

01 Jul 2020, 10:07 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
I was going to point out the irony and hypocrisy of your rant in general due to Catholics coming to B.C. and destroying Indigenous landmarks & heritage sites, desecrating burial grounds, ruining wverything in their path as they also destroyed, kidnapped, raped, and murderer Indigenous people for centuries - but Fnord’s much more specific knowledge refutes your rant even better.

Fnord wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
... Yesterday, two statues of the great Saint Junipero Serra, were torn down and physically desecrated by raving BLM mobs and their allies. When I saw that, I was enraged...
So?  Junipero enslaved the local indigenous population to build his mission buildings, and forced them to convert to his religion so that his "numbers" would impress the Vatican leaders.  His statues should be torn down, along with every other monument to slavery and forced conversion, including those of the Confederacy and even many of those representing the Founding Fathers.

And no, it is not history that's being erased; it's the veneration of those who carried on as if people of color were lesser beings that is being erased -- one should no more venerate an image of Junipero Serra than one would venerate an image of Robert E. Lee or Pontius Pilate.

Besides, the veneration of images is idolatry.


Also, just for the record, I support BLM and this entire uprising movement of BIPOC people who’ve been oppressed by systemic racism and white supremacy for several hundred years - all of which, btw, was initiated by the Roman Catholic Church when they sanctioned the first slaves in Portugal.

Also for the record I’m a baptized Roman Catholic - but I have no qualms about saying anything about the horrible s**t they’ve done from slavery to residential schools to pedophilia etc. If they practiced what they preach instead of being assholes people wouldn’t have bad things to say about them. But they don’t and they’re responsible for an awful lot of terrible s**t throughout history.

I'm going to give you the benefit of a doubt and assume you're just poorly very poorly catechized and extremely ignorant; and not merely giving to the acidic hatred that's typical of apostates.

Some of the worst persecutions of the Church happened at the hands of apostate Catholics.


_________________
Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."


Greatshield17
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Joined: 14 Sep 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia-Kootenay Region, British Columbia

01 Jul 2020, 10:08 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I visited the monasteries in San Luis Obispo and San Diego that Serra built when travelling with my parents in California 1980. The monks seemed quite pious and I can actually remember prominent statues of Serra in San Luis Obispo over a fountain (so my experience with this saint actually predates your birth goldenshields).

You never asked me what I thought of the removal of statues (you assumed I was siding with the native Americans when infact all I was doing was reporting how they felt about Serra and their motive/intent behind removing his statues.

I think removing the statues of Serra also removes historical artifacts. I would instead include a plaque commemorating all the Indians who he enslaved so visitors in future can learn more about the true impact of his missions.

How is it that those monks weren't enslaved and yet the indigenous peoples were?

Read my arguments.


I have read your arguments but as everyone has already stated they are based on your theological belief. You need to meet people half-way and acknowledge that human beings (in this context native americans in California) feel hurt by historic injustice.

But is the alleged injustice historical? And what about the beliefs of those who assert these allegations? (keeping in mind, that these allegations are being asserted by those who are not indigenous, in addition to those who are.)

Here's more historical evidence to consider, it was released today because today, in addition to being Canada Day up here, (Our Lady of the Cape, pray for Canada!) it is also the feast day of the Saint himself down in the US; it involves "theological belief," but I plea that you at least watch this video and consider what's being said:


I took the trouble to watch but Christian Clifford said three things that corresponds to what we are saying
1. Spain used mass conversion in California to justify colonies that could resist british and Russian imperial ambitions
2. Soldiers permitted those converted to return to their villages to visit their families but if they stayed too long they were forced back to the missions with threat of violence
3. The missions run by Serra were concerned that those forcibly converted would slip back to their "heathen" ways and so they felt it necessary to use the military to enforce their will which was they felt was divine in the service of the church and god.

The video says the exactly the opposite! Watch it again, and this time, watch it with the least amount of bias humanly possible.


_________________
Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."


goldfish21
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01 Jul 2020, 10:20 pm

Greatshield17 wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
I was going to point out the irony and hypocrisy of your rant in general due to Catholics coming to B.C. and destroying Indigenous landmarks & heritage sites, desecrating burial grounds, ruining wverything in their path as they also destroyed, kidnapped, raped, and murderer Indigenous people for centuries - but Fnord’s much more specific knowledge refutes your rant even better.

Fnord wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
... Yesterday, two statues of the great Saint Junipero Serra, were torn down and physically desecrated by raving BLM mobs and their allies. When I saw that, I was enraged...
So?  Junipero enslaved the local indigenous population to build his mission buildings, and forced them to convert to his religion so that his "numbers" would impress the Vatican leaders.  His statues should be torn down, along with every other monument to slavery and forced conversion, including those of the Confederacy and even many of those representing the Founding Fathers.

And no, it is not history that's being erased; it's the veneration of those who carried on as if people of color were lesser beings that is being erased -- one should no more venerate an image of Junipero Serra than one would venerate an image of Robert E. Lee or Pontius Pilate.

Besides, the veneration of images is idolatry.


Also, just for the record, I support BLM and this entire uprising movement of BIPOC people who’ve been oppressed by systemic racism and white supremacy for several hundred years - all of which, btw, was initiated by the Roman Catholic Church when they sanctioned the first slaves in Portugal.

Also for the record I’m a baptized Roman Catholic - but I have no qualms about saying anything about the horrible s**t they’ve done from slavery to residential schools to pedophilia etc. If they practiced what they preach instead of being assholes people wouldn’t have bad things to say about them. But they don’t and they’re responsible for an awful lot of terrible s**t throughout history.

I'm going to give you the benefit of a doubt and assume you're just poorly very poorly catechized and extremely ignorant; and not merely giving to the acidic hatred that's typical of apostates.

Some of the worst persecutions of the Church happened at the hands of apostate Catholics.


The Catholic Church gets crucified (pardon my French) for all the horrible s**t they’ve done. Nothing more, nothing less.


_________________
No :heart: for supporting trump. Because doing so is deplorable.


Greatshield17
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Velociraptor

Joined: 14 Sep 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia-Kootenay Region, British Columbia

01 Jul 2020, 10:35 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
I was going to point out the irony and hypocrisy of your rant in general due to Catholics coming to B.C. and destroying Indigenous landmarks & heritage sites, desecrating burial grounds, ruining wverything in their path as they also destroyed, kidnapped, raped, and murderer Indigenous people for centuries - but Fnord’s much more specific knowledge refutes your rant even better.

Fnord wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
... Yesterday, two statues of the great Saint Junipero Serra, were torn down and physically desecrated by raving BLM mobs and their allies. When I saw that, I was enraged...
So?  Junipero enslaved the local indigenous population to build his mission buildings, and forced them to convert to his religion so that his "numbers" would impress the Vatican leaders.  His statues should be torn down, along with every other monument to slavery and forced conversion, including those of the Confederacy and even many of those representing the Founding Fathers.

And no, it is not history that's being erased; it's the veneration of those who carried on as if people of color were lesser beings that is being erased -- one should no more venerate an image of Junipero Serra than one would venerate an image of Robert E. Lee or Pontius Pilate.

Besides, the veneration of images is idolatry.


Also, just for the record, I support BLM and this entire uprising movement of BIPOC people who’ve been oppressed by systemic racism and white supremacy for several hundred years - all of which, btw, was initiated by the Roman Catholic Church when they sanctioned the first slaves in Portugal.

Also for the record I’m a baptized Roman Catholic - but I have no qualms about saying anything about the horrible s**t they’ve done from slavery to residential schools to pedophilia etc. If they practiced what they preach instead of being assholes people wouldn’t have bad things to say about them. But they don’t and they’re responsible for an awful lot of terrible s**t throughout history.

I'm going to give you the benefit of a doubt and assume you're just poorly very poorly catechized and extremely ignorant; and not merely giving to the acidic hatred that's typical of apostates.

Some of the worst persecutions of the Church happened at the hands of apostate Catholics.


The Catholic Church gets crucified (pardon my French) for all the horrible s**t they’ve done. Nothing more, nothing less.

You better hope that the Church does not get crucified for the actual evils that Her members have committed; (not the objectively good things that She's done, which Her enemies hate.) because if She does, She'll rise again from the dead just like Christ and all the evils of the apostate West will be overthrown.


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Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."


cyberdad
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01 Jul 2020, 10:37 pm

I would ask you to read the academic studies of Serra which are at least sympathetic to him.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... ontroversy

The most sympathetic support from those who study Serra's accomplishments comes from UCLA Prof, Steve Hackel who says Serra was not an evil person. He claims Serra tried to minimise the violence against Indians committed by Spanish soldiers but even he admits Serra still believed in corporal punishment. Father Serra saw Indians as children, and in the early modern period good fathers corrected their kids through corporal punishment.

Even David McLaughlin from the catholic missions resource centre in California says that Serra was a "flawed man" despite living an exemplary life as a friar/monk.

What cannot be denied is that many atrocities took place and he knowingly closed his eyes to them in his service to the Spanish crown. The general consensus is that Serra’s complicity outweighs whatever intentions he had. He was driven by ambition, in his desire to produce results for Spain he “laid the groundwork to erase cultures and impose this burden of shame on Indians about being Indian” which explains much of the stigma modern Mezitzsos have against native people.



Greatshield17
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01 Jul 2020, 10:48 pm

I'm starting consider shutting this thread down, I won't do it yet, but I am thinking about it. I snapped at my dad this evening over an unrelated matter, and now I just want go to bed early tonight and wake tomorrow with my mind set on other, more important things in my life, then trying to show people that real life and works of Saint Junipero Serra. If I were stand up to an angry mob, like those heroic young Catholics at Ventura, California, and St. Louis, Missouri; it wouldn't matter how good of a debater I am or how many sources I knew, what would matter is whether I could stand or kneel firm with the Rosary in my hand.

I'll see tomorrow if I am able to continue this, right now though, I really doubt that I'll be making any progress in convincing people otherwise.


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Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."


cyberdad
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01 Jul 2020, 10:56 pm

I think nobody is asking you to stop your beliefs. However, please at least take responsibility for starting this thread with an attack on native americans whom you condemned.



Greatshield17
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01 Jul 2020, 11:16 pm

I'll respond to two of your paragraphs and address the rest tomorrow if I can.

cyberdad wrote:
The most sympathetic support from those who study Serra's accomplishments comes from UCLA Prof, Steve Hackel who says Serra was not an evil person. He claims Serra tried to minimise the violence against Indians committed by Spanish soldiers but even he admits Serra still believed in corporal punishment. Father Serra saw Indians as children, and in the early modern period good fathers corrected their kids through corporal punishment.

Everyone suffered corporal punishment in the frontier territories regardless of their ethnicity or creed. I have never denied that the Missions engaged in corporal punishment, nor do I endorse corporal punishment; except of course in very extreme circumstances.

The acceptance of corporal punishment is indeed a flaw in Saint Junipero Serra's works, which will lead me to your second paragraph, but before I discuss that, I want to touch on Saint Junipero's view of the indigenous people as childlike. St. Junipero's contemporaries both described and praised Saint Junipero himself as being childlike. By Catholic standards, childlikeness is considered a positive trait, because Our Lord said that one most become like a little child in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

cyberdad wrote:
Even David McLaughlin from the catholic missions resource centre in California says that Serra was a "flawed man" despite living an exemplary life as a friar/monk.

Contrary to the popular understanding, when a person is canonized as a Saint, that doesn't mean that that person is perfect. The reason Our Lady is venerated more than all the other Saint, is that She is the Immaculately Conceived New Eve and thus, the only truly perfect Human Being. (Apart from Our Lord of course, but He's also fully Divine and thus, in His own category.) Plenty of Saints have made some terrible mistakes and some have actually done some pretty bad things; Saint Clotilde, the Queen of the Franks, along with her husband Clovis, were once at war with another "barbarian" Queen, who is also a canonized Saint; (I forget her name) during the conflict, the two ended doing some very violent things to each others' family members.

Saints aren't perfect, they're just much holier than normal people. It is interesting to note that today, I actually found out that at one point Saint Junipero ironically said he wanted people to remember him for his mistakes, not his good deeds. I guess the Lord has caused me to honour the Feast Day is Son in Christ, by commenting on the mistakes he's made.

I'll look into the link you gave me tomorrow, if I can.


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Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."


Greatshield17
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01 Jul 2020, 11:17 pm

cyberdad wrote:
I think nobody is asking you to stop your beliefs. However, please at least take responsibility for starting this thread with an attack on native americans whom you condemned.

I am not condemning the Indigenous of California, I'm condemning the individuals who perpetrated the acts mentioned in this thread's opening post.


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Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."


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01 Jul 2020, 11:21 pm

Greatshield17 wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
I was going to point out the irony and hypocrisy of your rant in general due to Catholics coming to B.C. and destroying Indigenous landmarks & heritage sites, desecrating burial grounds, ruining wverything in their path as they also destroyed, kidnapped, raped, and murderer Indigenous people for centuries - but Fnord’s much more specific knowledge refutes your rant even better.

Fnord wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
... Yesterday, two statues of the great Saint Junipero Serra, were torn down and physically desecrated by raving BLM mobs and their allies. When I saw that, I was enraged...
So?  Junipero enslaved the local indigenous population to build his mission buildings, and forced them to convert to his religion so that his "numbers" would impress the Vatican leaders.  His statues should be torn down, along with every other monument to slavery and forced conversion, including those of the Confederacy and even many of those representing the Founding Fathers.

And no, it is not history that's being erased; it's the veneration of those who carried on as if people of color were lesser beings that is being erased -- one should no more venerate an image of Junipero Serra than one would venerate an image of Robert E. Lee or Pontius Pilate.

Besides, the veneration of images is idolatry.


Also, just for the record, I support BLM and this entire uprising movement of BIPOC people who’ve been oppressed by systemic racism and white supremacy for several hundred years - all of which, btw, was initiated by the Roman Catholic Church when they sanctioned the first slaves in Portugal.

Also for the record I’m a baptized Roman Catholic - but I have no qualms about saying anything about the horrible s**t they’ve done from slavery to residential schools to pedophilia etc. If they practiced what they preach instead of being assholes people wouldn’t have bad things to say about them. But they don’t and they’re responsible for an awful lot of terrible s**t throughout history.

I'm going to give you the benefit of a doubt and assume you're just poorly very poorly catechized and extremely ignorant; and not merely giving to the acidic hatred that's typical of apostates.

Some of the worst persecutions of the Church happened at the hands of apostate Catholics.


The Catholic Church gets crucified (pardon my French) for all the horrible s**t they’ve done. Nothing more, nothing less.

You better hope that the Church does not get crucified for the actual evils that Her members have committed; (not the objectively good things that She's done, which Her enemies hate.) because if She does, She'll rise again from the dead just like Christ and all the evils of the apostate West will be overthrown.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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01 Jul 2020, 11:21 pm

Greatshield17 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I think nobody is asking you to stop your beliefs. However, please at least take responsibility for starting this thread with an attack on native americans whom you condemned.

I am not condemning the Indigenous of California, I'm condemning the individuals who perpetrated the acts mentioned in this thread's opening post.


The first step towards letting a wound heal is removing the debris. That's what they did, they cleansed a long-standing wound in hopes of allowing it to heal.

This isn't something you should condemn, if your god is real he can make your saint's soul feel better about this blow to his pride; who knows, maybe he's already come to understand it needed to happen and enabled it. He's got powers like that, or so I've heard.


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