July 13th, The Third Apparition of Our Lady of Fatima

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Fnord
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15 Jul 2020, 2:17 pm

jimmy m wrote:
Wow! I thought that topics like global warming theory and political figures like President Trump produces a severe backlash on this site. But it seems when discussing religion, all the big knives come out.
Knives?  The closest I come to bringing out a knife is a careful application of Occam's Razor -- "pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate", or "plurality should not be posited without necessity".  The principle gives precedence to simplicity: of two competing theories, the simpler explanation of an entity is to be preferred.

So, which is more likely:

(a) A woman who has been dead for nearly 2000 years comes back to life and appears to 3 shepherd-girls to tell them to repent.

(b) A group of priests, hard-up for money, seize upon three shepherd-girls and coerces/convinces them to lie and put on an act.

In the first case (a), there is no evidence -- not even Biblical "evidence" -- for this apparition.  In the second case (b), using children to scam peasants out of what little money they have is just human nature.  "The first religion was invented when the first scoundrel met the first fool."  Throw in some ecclesiastical guilt-tripping, and the Church acquires a new source of income!


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Steve1963
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15 Jul 2020, 2:35 pm

^^^
you are so going to burn in hell. lucky for you it doesn't exist.



Fnord
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15 Jul 2020, 5:33 pm

Steve1963 wrote:
You are so going to burn in hell...
If you would assume for the moment that the Biblical Hell (and the Biblical Heaven) does exist, and that the sole purpose for Hell's existence is as an eternal warehouse for those who have sinned against G^D, then nothing in my previous post in this thread would condemn me to that place.  Mainly because there is nothing in the Bible that indicates Mary:

• Remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus.
• Never died, and is still alive.
• Ascended to Heaven in the same way as her Son.
• Intercedes directly with G^D on behalf of mortals who pray to her.
• Appears to modern-day peasants in remote locations and tells them to "repent, or else".
• Is the Queen of Heaven, the Angelic Host, or any other sphere of influence.

Mary, along with the other so-called "Saints" of the RCC, is dead.  She (and the other "Saints") can no more intercede on behalf of the living than the dead hamster I buried in the back yard.  Her presence at Pentecost is the Bible's final reference to Mary, and since the Bible is silent about what happened to Mary after Pentecost (Acts 1:14), we can only speculate on what became of her (and her remains) afterward -- speculation that the RCC has picked up and run with for all the profit they can squeeze out of it.

Also, it is a commonly-known fact that the RCC is one of the wealthiest of governments, religious or secular; that the vast majority of its wealth was obtained by either implying or stating that people could atone for their sins (and the sins of loved ones) with donations of cash and valuable items to the RCC; and that the more "sinful" you are (as determined by a mortal priest), the more wealth you should donate to the RCC to get into Heaven.

It's the unrepentant/unsaved liars and idolators (as well as the pedo-priests) of the RCC who will likely wake up in Hell one day.


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Greatshield17
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15 Jul 2020, 10:09 pm

Fnord wrote:
If pretty pictures and cryptic verses are all it takes to motivate you, then you probably lead a very unchallenged life -- the kind asylum-dwellers lead.

Lúcia de Jesus dos Santos (1907-2005) of Fatima, Portugal, grew up to become a Catholic nun known as Sister Lúcia of Fátima.  As a child of nine or ten she and two cousins claimed the Virgin Mary appeared to them in the sky above a field where they were tending sheep.  Perhaps they had a collective hallucination.  Perhaps the ghost of a person who has been dead for 2,000 years and who is thought by Catholics to be the human mother of a godman really did choose three Portuguese children to tell them what their parents, relatives, priests, and nuns had been telling them all their lives: Sin and you'll go to hell.  Lúcia also claimed that Mary told them three secrets.  In 1941, after her cousins had died of the flu, Lúcia "revealed" two of the secrets.  She kept the third secret a secret, however, until she thought she was on her own deathbed.

I love how you omit the Miracle of the Sun. Yes, I know about aghogday's post and the Wikipedia article, I'll get to those tomorrow, although I already know about most of the attempts made to debunk the miracle. But just I find it amusing how you omit the miracle here. Also, some people reporedt seeing a cloud descend on the holmoak tree in the apparitions prior to the miracle in October.

Fnord wrote:
[color=black]The first two secrets involved a vision of hell and a prophecy that WWI would end -- a good call to make in 1941, 23 years after the fact -- and that if people didn't shape up there would be another war soon.  Perfect record, so far.  In 1944, Lúcia wrote down the third secret when ordered to do so by Dom Jose Alves Correia da Silva, the bishop of the diocese of Leiria-Fatima.  The third secret was sealed in an envelope that was opened in 2000.

Some people claim that prophecies of the Old Testament weren't made until after the fact; some people claim the Our Lord's prophecy about the destruction of the Temple was added in after the Great Jewish Revolt; some people claim the Book of Revelations was really about Nero's persecutions and the Great Jewish Revolt and was all written, you guessed it, after the fact.

Fnord wrote:
[color=black]A large cult following grew out of these religious fantasies and pilgrims from all over the world still beat a path to Fatima to pray, do penance, leave money, and hope for a miracle.  Many devout followers were sure that Mary had told the children when the world was going to end.  They were gravely disappointed when it was revealed that the expected doomsday "prophecy" or "vision," though apocalyptic after a fashion, didn't say much more than "repent or you'll be sorry"!  Sister Lucy's alleged vision of arrows and bullets slaughtering popes, bishops, and priests might bring a smile to a few anti-clerics, however.  Below is an English translation of the Fatima "prophecy":

Quote:
....at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendor that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: 'Penance, Penance, Penance!'.  And we saw in an immense light that is God: 'something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White 'we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'.  Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions.  Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God.


I don't see anything wrong or disappointing with this prophecy, seems okay to me. Some people claim that there is and should be, a written part to this secret, and maybe there is, but like I said, it doesn't bother whether there is, or isn't a written part. Some say the killing of the Pope was meant to represent the assassination attempt on St. John Paul II, others claim that the assassination attempt was merely a kind of foreshadowing of the killing of the Pope represented in the Third Secret. While it is interesting, again, it doesn't bother me. I have seen quite a few things these past couple of years (like the sex abuse scandals) which might suggest that what's been foretold in the Third Secret is coming to fruition, but regardless of whether that is the case or not, I am just going keep on doing what Our Lady of Fatima requested; say my Rosary everyday, do the Five First Saturday Devotions when I can, as well other works of prayer and penance; such saying an extra Rosary every 13th Day of the month from May to October for reparation and the conversion of sinners.

Fnord wrote:
Lúcia was a person who lived in a "delirious world of infantile fantasies" and suffered "religious hallucinations." That is how Father Mario de Oliveira described her (Sunday-Times, UK, June 29, 2000).  He went much further, accusing the clergy of Ourem and the Catholic Church of psychological abuse.  Father Mario de Oliveira claims the two children who died from the flu died due to religious fasting.  Fatima, he says, is a hoax kept alive because of the attention it gets and the money it makes.  Lucy and her cousins were certainly delusional and the Catholic Church certainly exploited their delusions.  The children of Fatima were as much pious frauds as innocent victims of gaslighing, brainwashing, and religious indoctrination.

As I mentioned before, the parish priest was skeptical of the children; in fact when the children were kidnapped by the government, the villagers who believed the apparitions suspected that the priest was responsible for handing the children over to the government, and held an angry rally outside the church. If this priest said what is allegedly said here, well I will just heed Christ's words about being aware of wolves in sheeps' clothing, Judas Iscariot was a Catholic Clergyman after all. (A bishop to be exact) But if you want to blindly listen to what one Catholic cleric says, by all means.

Fnord wrote:
[color=black]Lúcia was a 93-year-old cloistered Carmelite nun when the third "secret" was revealed to the world.  Apparently, the cloistered life, for all its austerity, didn't kill her.  When the third secret was allegedly revealed, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (a.k.a., "Benny the Enforcer"; later to become Pope Benedict XVI), said that she conjured her vision from devotional books.  According to the Sunday-Times (UK, June 29, 2000), many people in Portugal and beyond were angry because the alleged "secret" was not a doomsday prophecy, thus making their recent penitence and contributions unnecessary, while many others claim the 3rd "prophecy" is a desperate forgery, but the bottom line is that the "vision" is so generic and pointless as to make itself seem utterly absurd.

I find that extremely hard to believe, especially consider all the other things Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict XVI said about Lucia, Our Lady of Fatima, and other apparitions and prophecies like Our Lady of Akita. As I said before, I don't see any problem with any of this, no Catholic sees any problem with the vision itself (they may have the problem with an alleged lack of an explanation) or the call to repentance; none of these things are considered unnecessary or absurd.

Fnord wrote:
[color=black]Oh, and by the way ... the term "Lourdes Effect" refers to the observation that alleged supernatural effects seem to have a sort of resistance to manifesting themselves in a completely unambiguous fashion.  Should the miraculous power of Lourdes actually exist there would be no reason to think that it would be more difficult for "Our Lady of Fatima" to reattach a severed arm than to cure a headache.  The fact that alleged visions of the "Virgin Mary" lack reliability and clarity is further evidence that the Lourdes Effect is real.

There are a million reasons why a cure or something else won't happen through prayer and/or Our Lady's intercession. But in regards specifically to why Our Lady of Lourdes is known cures, and not Our Lady of Fatima, the simple answer is that the titles actually do matter, even though it's the same Woman, what title you invoke Her under can determine the efficacy of your prayer. Thus, you are more likely to receive a miraculous cure from Our Lady under Her title of Our Lady of Lourdes, because that title and apparition are associated with miraculous cures. Not that invoking Our Lady under Her title of Our Lady of Fatima cannot bring about miraculous cures, a couple of years ago I wanted to send an ex-voto plaque to the Fatima Shrine, in thanksgiving for Her role in my reversion to the Faith, and so I checked to see if ex-votos were a thing in Fatima and discovered that there were a significant number of ex-votos at Fatima, thus I assume that some of those ex-votos there were for miraculous cures.

So tomorrow I will address your post aghogday, regarding the Miracle of the Sun, but I do want to address one of the arguments you made as well as one present on the Wikipedia page, namely, your argument from subconsciousness and the Wikipedia article's claim of mass hallucination.

Firstly, in regards your appeal from the subconscious, well appeals from the psyche in general are bad arguments because one cannot really know what is inside a person's interior apart from what is clear from words and actions. We cannot make guesses from parts of the psyche that even the people themselves don't know; we have to take the witnesses at their words and believe that what the people there claimed to believe, (namely that they either didn't believe Our Lady was appearing there, or were outright atheists) they really and truly did believe.

As for mass hallucinations, they're practically non-existent. There is only one other event in human history that has been claimed to be a mass hallucination, and in this event, there were actually fewer people present at that event than there were at Fatima. What was that event that was claimed to be a mass hallucination? The Resurrection and Ascension of Our Lord:


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Greatshield17
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16 Jul 2020, 9:29 pm

aghogday wrote:


Smiles, my Friend, there are Many More Rational Explanations
For What Happened 'that Day'; More Numerous in the Link Below.

Magical Believing is A Natural Part of the Human Condition.

There was a Day where if We told someone We Will Visualize
Ourselves Exercising Growing Stronger And We actually Get Stronger in Our Ways of Measure;
Many Folks Would have called that Woo; Yet Science Proves, it is a Real Measurable way of Getting Stronger Now;

Sports Science Understands this too. The Placebo Effect Heals in Believing Others Are Supporting Us With Love Real;
No Different Than Prayers That Are Offered of Love That Sink Deep into Our Soul (Our Total Minds; Conscious at
Around 5 Percent; and Subconscious at Around 95 Percent, the True Driver of All We Do as Living Breathing Souls Whole).
And Yes, By God of Nature, 'Voodoo' is as Real as the Nocebo Effect Again, Bringing Disease And Premature Death too
for those Who Believe in Negative Waves of Life, Sinking the Soul of Our Ships Sooner. But You See my FRiEnD,
Perhaps You May Never 'Believe IT; but Traditionally the Church has used both Placebo and Nocebo; in yes,
Carrots and Sticks to Subjugate And Control The Freedoms of Humans for Demagogue Mastery in
Pecking Order of Power And Status to make Small Souls of Men and Or Woman Feel Bigger than
Empty Souls of Golden Robed Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests; And Every Form of Deacon
Who Comes to Imagine they are bigger than others from their Vaulted, yet Never Truly
Soul Love Filled Place on Altars and Pulpits; no Different than Trump Sitting Behind
His Big Desk Refusing to Wear a Mask; No Different than the Priests
Who Did this to their Congregations While Delivering Communion
With No Masks of Compassion too; as they were just too important to do that too, following Their 'Dear Leader',
Trump's Way, Where Health/Well Being of Others was less important than their Vaulted Robe Positions at the Pulpit.

Smiles, Believe You Will Wake Up at 6 AM Each Day And Awake Before An Alarm Clock Rings; Do We Hear
the tick, tock, of Clocks While We Were Asleep and Count them; No, Digital Clocks Don't Tick, Tock Anymore.

Again, Whatever Works for You; At Best Love Without Fear Harming All Others, including the Rest of Nature Least;
Even Loving Enemies, Same As Neighbors For Many Abused in So Many Ways Coloring their Love to Black Coal
And Only Fire of Fear and Hate Within; We All Exist on this Earth; Every Black Abyss Soul thru Purgatory Grey
to Beyond Rainbow Colors of Love That Most Folks Have no idea that exists at all; Truly Making
That 'Miracle
of Fatima',
Even if Real
Pale in Sun of Love Shine
CompariSon Within AS Humans
With Love Will Grow Mountains
of SoUL LoVE Smiles for Others too Big to See in just one Look of
SMiLes At Best We Create LoVE SMiLes As LiFE Really Breathes LoVE NoW...
SMiLes, YeS AGAiN, At Best Sun Within Our SoULS of SPiRiT HeART Dance
Sing Bringing Shine
of SMiLes to ALL..:)

A Sun of Love Is
Not Invisible Within
Shining All 4 Seasons;
No Matter Weather of Clouds,
Rain, Day, Night, Moon or Sun; Love is Brighter Within to Give And Share;
And God Yes of Nature Carry on Now passing Away Coming Again More With
Technology Greater of Soul Than Any Pyramid Built With Trump Golden Tower
Initials of Empty Soul
Buildings
Ever

Do.

[19] Not all witnesses reported seeing the Sun "dance". Some people only saw
the radiant colors, and others, including some believers, saw nothing at all.[8][20][21][22][23]
The only known picture of the Sun taken during the event shows nothing unusual.[9][1]

Smiles, my Friend, The Sun Within me Dances And Sings Always Eternally Now
And It's True There are Innumerable Videos on Social Media of me Dancing
in Public with Innumerable Views of Thousands of Videos Taken this way
By Others in the last 13,393 Miles, in 82 Months, Where i Haven't Lifted
a Finger to Prove to others that The Sun of me Within in Shine of
Love Does
Indeed
Dance
Free so many
More views than
those of 1917, for Within Now The Shine of Love Will Dance
Better Yet Now Proven With No Refutation Possible Now; Best thing is i'm
not the only Sun Within Who Will Dance And Sing In Shine this way;
There are Many Suns Dancing And Singing Shine of Love Within
They are not Afraid to Beam Their Light House Souls As
Their Lamps
Will continue
Shining
As they
Upload their
Souls to Give
Love Free Even Longer than Death will Ever Take Away...
A SeLFisH SouLeD PeRSoN WiLL Never Care to Give this way...
More than likely all that Will fill them
up inside a bit away from Empty
Soul is taking Freedoms away
from others to Temporarily
'Fill' Up Higher
Within
That Will
Never See
Sun Shine For
Others From Within...

Smiles my Friend, THeRE is An 'Invisible
Sun' (Love/God) Within That Shines, Dances, Sings
Creating Star Light For All to BReATHE iN Terms of Free Love With Wings..:)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

I wanted to respond to this in my own words, but something has come up that has caused to really cut-down, if not leave WrongPlanet for awhile. (It'll be explained in other threads I'll be posting on here shortly.) Providentially, before everything came up, I posted a thread on a Traditional Catholic forum site, asking for any additional information I may need, and I was directed to this page, written by a person by the name of Mark Mallet, and so will I will post his responses here, and then add one or two more things I think need to be added.

From Mark Mallet's site:

CRITICAL EVALUTION…

In my long and ongoing debates with an atheist, he sent me an article from www.answers.com titled Miracle of the Sun. It was his attempt to show that science can explain away every single miracle—including what occurred at Fatima. Now, what happened there may be considered one of the most remarkable public miracles since the time of Christ. Given that three children predicted that it would occur, as they were allegedly told by the Mother of God herself, the stakes are high. Add to that the fact that atheists, socialists, the secular press and opponents of the Church were present, this would really seem to be the créme de la créme miracle to debunk.

I read through the article and the “critical evaluation” of various “experts” and their explanations of how this miracle could have simply been a natural phenomenon and nothing more. Here are their comments followed by my responses:

C. (Critique)

Quote:
Joe Nickell, a skeptic and investigator of paranormal phenomena, rightly notes that the “Sun Miracle” has also allegedly occurred at various Marian sites throughout the world. During one such instance in Conyers, Georgia in the mid-1990s, a telescope outfitted with a “vision-protecting Mylar solar filter” was pointed at the sun.

…more than two hundred people had viewed the sun through one of the solar filters and not a single person saw anything unusual. —Skeptical Inquirer, Volume 33.6 November / December 2009


R. (Response)

While one can assume that the observation in Conyers was only a test of the alleged “Sun Miracle” in that location, the question begs as to why use a telescope in the first place, given the reported nature of “the miracle of the sun”? At Fatima, eyewitnesses described the sun spinning, revolving “vertiginously on its axis”, and then zig-zagging toward the earth as if it had become unfixed from the heavens. Any amateur astronomer can tell you that this is impossible. While planets and moons move in an orbit, the sun itself is “fixed” in its place. It would be impossible for the sun to change positions. Therefore, the people in Portugal saw something else, something that is outside the boundaries of the law of physics and beyond the lens of a telescope. [As a sidenote, was the miracle of the sun a portent not so much of what may happen to the sun some day, but to the earth and its orbit?]

It is worth noting that at other Marian sites, the miracle of the sun, while reportedly witnessed by many, is usually never witnessed by all. This was also the case at Fatima.

Quote:
…the prediction of an unspecified “miracle,” the abrupt beginning and end of the alleged miracle of the sun, the varied religious backgrounds of the observers, the sheer numbers of people present, and the lack of any known scientific causative factor make a mass hallucination unlikely. That the activity of the sun was reported as visible by those up to 18 kilometres (11 mi) away, also precludes the theory of a collective hallucination or mass hysteria.. .Despite these assertions, not all witnesses reported seeing the sun “dance.” Some people only saw the radiant colors. Others, including some believers, saw nothing at all. No scientific accounts exist of any unusual solar or astronomic activity during the time the sun was reported to have “danced”, and there are no witness reports of any unusual solar phenomenon further than 64 kilometres (40 mi) out from Cova da Iria. -answers.com


Why only some see this “miracle” is a mystery. Is it a “gift” for some for a particular reason in their lives? Some people I have spoken to, who have claimed to have seen the miracle of the sun in modern times, have tried to record with a camera what they were witnessing. However, the sun appeared normal on film or video tape. Eyewitness accounts are pretty much all we have to rely on, it seems. This usually presents a problem of subjectivity.

However, in the case of Fatima, the sheer number of witnesses bolsters the case that something extraordinary took place. The fact that not everyone in Portugal that day witnessed the event adds to the evidence in support of a miracle, since, a solar phenomenon passing over the country could and should have been witnessed by all present at the site.

Quote:
The… solar phenomena were not observed in any observatory. Impossible that they should escape notice of so many astronomers and indeed the other inhabitants of the hemisphere… there is no question of an astronomical or meteorological event phenomenon… Either all the observers in Fátima were collectively deceived and erred in their testimony, or we must suppose an extra-natural intervention. —Fr. John De Marchi, Italian priest and researcher; The Immaculate Heart, 1952b:282


C.
Quote:
Professor Auguste Meessen of the Institute of Physics, Catholic University of Leuven, has stated that the reported observations were optical effects caused by prolonged staring at the sun. Meessen contends that retinal after-images produced after brief periods of sun gazing are a likely cause of the observed dancing effects. Similarly Meessen states that the colour changes witnessed were most likely caused by the bleaching of photosensitive retinal cells. —Auguste Meessen ‘Apparitions and Miracles of the Sun’ International Forum in Porto “Science, Religion and Conscience” October 23–25, 2003 ISSN: 1645-6564


R.

It has long been established by ophthalmologists that to stare into the sun can cause permanent eye damage. It can take as little as seconds before temporary or permanent damage can begin to occur.

In the reports from eyewitnesses in Fatima, the miracle of the sun lasted not seconds, but minutes, and perhaps as long as “ten minutes.” Eyewitnesses stated that the clouds had broken and “the sun at its zenith appeared in all its splendor,” and so onlookers were staring directly at the sun. To stare at the bare sun at noon for even a minute—if that were even possible—would likely have been enough to cause permanent eye damage in at least a few people. But out of tens of thousands of people, there were no reports of a single person having incurred eye damage, let alone blindness. (On the other hand, this has occurred at some alleged Marian apparition sites where certain people have gone looking for a miracle).

Professor Meesen’s logic further falls apart by stating that the dancing effects of the sun were merely the result of retinal after-images. If that were the case, then the miracle of the sun witnessed at Fatima should be easily duplicated in your own backyard. In fact, to be certain, the thousands gathered that day would have looked up at the sun later that afternoon and in the days following to see if the miracle would repeat. If the “miracle” that October 13th was only the result of retinal images or “the bleaching of photosensitive retinal cells,” the skeptics and secular newspapers who had earlier been ridiculing the three shepherd children would surely have pointed this out. The aftermath of excitement would have quickly dissipated as people began to readily duplicate “retinal after-images.” The opposite is true. Eyewitnesses described the sight as a “prodigy,” something “incapable of describing,” and a “remarkable spectacle.” What is remarkable about something that one could easily duplicate an hour later?

C.

Quote:
Nickell also suggests that the dancing effects witnessed at Fatima may have been due to optical effects resulting from temporary retinal distortion caused by staring at such an intense light. —Skeptical Inquirer, Volume 33.6 November / December 2009


R.

In no cases do we read of any eyewitnesses reporting lingering optical effects. The prodigy seemed to simply end when the sun, after appearing to zig-zag to the earth, resumed its normal course; eyewitnesses reported that the phenomenon lasted only so long and then abruptly ended. However, if Nickell’s explanation were true, the retinal distortion should have continued as long as people continued to stare at the sun… an hour, three hours, all day long. This contradicts reports that indicate that the miracle had a definitive ending.

Furthermore, eyewitnesses specifically noted that the sun did not appear as an ‘intense light,’ but rather it appeared “pale and did not hurt my eyes” and “enveloped in… gauzy grey light” and began to emit “multicolored flashes of light, producing the most astounding effect.” It is worth noting that during an eclipse of the sun, or when the sun is under thick cloud covering, it can be looked at without any perceived discomfort. However, in these cases the sun is blocked by another object, and in fact, can still cause serious and permanent harm.

C.

Quote:
Steuart Campbell, writing for the 1989 edition of Journal of Meteorology, postulated that a cloud of stratospheric dust changed the appearance of the sun on 13 October, making it easy to look at, and causing it to appear yellow, blue, and violet and to spin. In support of his hypothesis, Mr. Campbell reports that a blue and reddened sun was reported in China as documented in 1983. —Fátima’s dusty veil”, New Humanist, Vol 104 No 2, August 1989 and “The Miracle of the Sun at Fátima”, Journal of Meteorology, UK, Vol 14, no. 142, October, 1989


R.

Once again, this hypothesis contradicts eyewitness reports. Not everyone present at Fatima that day witnessed a miracle in the sky. If this was a solar anomaly, a “cloud of stratospheric dust” that lasted several minutes, surely it would have been in plain view to everyone. Campbell’s assertion also falls short of explaining the third aspect of the spectacle that day: the sight of the sun zig-zagging and appearing to hurl toward to the earth. Lastly, such a stratospheric dust cloud would surely be an event that no one could predict months in advance in that time period, let alone three sheep-herding children.

Neither does a cloud of dust explain how everyone’s clothing, which had been drenched by a downpour of rain that only ended just minutes before, were now “suddenly and completely dry.” Something outside of the normal laws of physics and thermodynamics took place that day producing not only an optical, but physical “miracle.”

C.

Quote:
Joe Nickell claims that the position of the phenomenon, as described by the various witnesses, is at the wrong azimuth and elevation to have been the sun. He suggests the cause may have been a sundog. Sometimes referred to as a parhelion or “mock sun.” A sundog is a relatively common atmospheric optical phenomenon associated with the reflection/refraction of sunlight by the numerous small ice crystals that make up cirrus or cirrostratus clouds. A sundog is, however, a stationary phenomenon, and would not explain the reported appearance of the “dancing sun”… Nickell concludes that there was likely a combination of factors, including optical and meteorological phenomena (the sun being seen through thin clouds, causing it to appear as a silver disc; an alteration in the density of the passing clouds, so that the sun would alternatively brighten and dim, thus appearing to advance and recede; dust or moisture droplets in the atmosphere, imparting a variety of colors to sunlight; and/or other phenomena). —www.answers.com


[Note: Links are present in the quote above, but I do not have time to add them, if you wish to see and check out the links in the quote, please go to the page yourself to see them.]

R.

There comes a point where a skeptic turns into a fanatic. That is, one who refuses to face the truth despite the overwhelming evidence.

Here in Canada, I witness regularly the solar effect known as a “sun dog.” It appears, not within the sun, but quite far off to the left or the right or sometimes above. However, at Fatima, observers described the sun itself—not objects close to it—as putting on a spectacle. Besides, as pointed out, sundogs are stationary. They are bright refractions of light that appear like small, vertical rainbows. They are pretty, no doubt. But seeing them myself on a frequent basis, they look nothing like what has been described as the “miracle of the sun,” and no more inexplicable than a rainbow after a storm.

As for Nickell’s other conclusions, they are obviously a potpourri of guesses. I suppose when one single answer doesn’t fit, then several single answers thrown together might be enough to dazzle the uncritical mind. Ultimately, I think the people—including the scientific observers present that day—deserve a bit more intellectual credit than Nickell is giving them. Besides, he still hasn’t answered how the children could have predicted the “perfect storm” of anomalies that Nickell has conjured up. So it is with other scientific guesses that have been made:

Quote:
Paul Simons, in an article entitled “Weather Secrets of Miracle at Fátima”, states that he believes it possible that some of the optical effects at Fatima may have been caused by a cloud of dust from the Sahara. — “Weather Secrets of Miracle at Fátima”, Paul Simons, The Times, February 17, 2005.


Odd that no one present that day commented on dusty weather. On the contrary, it was pouring rain—which tends to dampen a dust storm quite quickly.

Quote:
Kevin McClure claims that the crowd at Cova da Iria may have been expecting to see signs in the sun, as similar phenomena had been reported in the weeks leading up to the miracle. On this basis he believes that the crowd saw what it wanted to see. But it has been objected that McClure’s account fails to explain similar reports of people miles away, who by their own testimony were not even thinking of the event at the time, or the sudden drying of people’s sodden, rain-soaked clothes. Kevin McClure stated that he had never seen such a collection of contradictory accounts of a case in any of the research he had done in the previous ten years, although he has not explicitly stated what these contradictions were. —www.answers.com


C.

Quote:
Many years after the events in question, Stanley L. Jaki, a professor of physics at Seton Hall University, New Jersey, Benedictine priest and author of a number of books reconciling science and Catholicism, proposed a unique theory about the supposed miracle. Jaki believes that the event was natural and meteorological in nature, but that the fact the event occurred at the exact time predicted was a miracle. —Jaki, Stanley L. (1999). God and the Sun at Fátima. Real View Books, ASIN B0006R7UJ6


R.

Here, it must be said, that the idea that some sort of natural phenomena contributed to what is known as “the miracle of the sun” is not incompatible with the miracle. Just as God saved mankind working through nature—the incarnation of Jesus Christ in the womb of a virgin— so too, miracles do not necessarily eliminate the “participation” of nature. What makes a miracle a miracle is that some aspect of the event is inexplicable and can only be explained as supernatural in origin.

Catholicism is not opposed to science. It is opposed to atheism that makes science into a religion and the answer to all things existential. And neither has the Catholic Church, to her credit, historically been in a hurry to declare something a miracle. She often takes years to study events and eliminate the possibility of a hoax.

Regarding the miracle of the sun, a declaration finally came some thirteen years later…

Quote:
The event was officially accepted as a miracle by the Roman Catholic Church on 13 October 1930. On 13 October 1951, papal legate Cardinal Tedeschini told the million gathered at Fátima that on 30 October, 31 October, 1 November, and 8 November 1950, Pope Pius XII himself witnessed the miracle of the sun from the Vatican gardens. —Joseph Pelletier. (1983). The Sun Danced at Fátima. Doubleday, New York. p. 147–151.


CONCLUSION

While some scientific explanations have been proposed as to what happened that October day, none completely satisfy logic and the overall picture: that three small children were told by the Blessed Virgin Mary, months in advance, that at noon on the 13th, a miracle would occur. An extraordinary and inexplicable event occurred as predicted.

It was a miracle.

But there is another prophetic aspect to this event that, unfortunately, is often overlooked. It is one of the central messages that accompanied the Blessed Virgin Mary as part of her apparitions to the children. She warned, shortly before Vladimir Lenin stormed Russia and began the Marxist revolution there, that the world was at a turning point:

Quote:
When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. —Our Lady of Fatima, Message of Fatima, www.vatican.va


As it turned out, a great light did illumine the sky on January 25, 1938 followed a year later by the outbreak of World War II—but the consecration of Russia was delayed with no small consequences:

Quote:
Since we did not heed this appeal of the Message, we see that it has been fulfilled, Russia has invaded the world with her errors. And if we have not yet seen the complete fulfillment of the final part of this prophecy, we are going towards it little by little with great strides. If we do not reject the path of sin, hatred, revenge, injustice, violations of the rights of the human person, immorality and violence, etc. —Sr. Lucia, one of the three Fatima seers, Letter to Pope John Paul II, May 12th, 1982; www.vatican.va


If the atheist refuses to believe in a supernatural event he was not alive to witness, perhaps he is able to recognize that a prophecy made by the Mother of God last century is being fulfilled right before his eyes.

God exists. He loves us. And He is intervening in our times in the most extraordinary, miraculous, and soon, definitive ways…

From: https://www.markmallett.com/blog/debunking-the-sun-miracle-skeptics/

Two more things I want to add, firstly I want to address the Wikipedia article's claim that the a photo was taken of the Miracle of the Sun that "shows nothing unusual." Well here's the photo in question:
Image

As you can see, not only does this photo show something quite unusual, but also, it matches perfectly with eye witness testimony that says that sun took on the form of spinning silver disc or orb.

The second thing I want to address is the account that some people present there, didn't see the Miracle of the Sun at all. For a Catholic, there are explanations for why some people may not see the Miracle of the Sun, one possibility is that some people may have entered the Illuminative stage in their spiritual journey. The Illuminative stage, is a stage in which God strips you of all the consolations you've felt while doing good things for Him, as well as your idea of who God is, and what He is like; and you can only rely on your Faith in, and Love of God. You may have heard of St. Teresa of Calcutta having doubts about God, well that was actually her entering the illuminative stage. If a person was present at the Cova da Iria during the Miracle of the Sun, while being in the Illuminative stage, it would have made sense for God to block that person from seeing the Miracle of the Sun; because that person had to rely only on his or her Faith in, and Love for God. On the other end of the spectrum, there are some people whom God knows, that if they saw the miracle, they wouldn't convert out of genuine love for Him; thus God prevented some people from seeing the Miracle of the Sun, because He knows that it would be in their best interest to convert through another way which; in which they would genuinely love Him.

So that's all for now, I'll continue defending this if people keep trying to debunk it; because this is the apparition that brought me back to the Faith and thus, is very important to me. But other than that, I'm going to be spending less time on WrongPlanet as I now have more important things to work on in my life.


_________________
Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."


aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,759

17 Jul 2020, 11:51 am





SMiLES, mY FRiEnD; Keep Looking For 'Mary';
Keep Finding 'Her'; Hopefully One Day 'She'
Will Give You What Your Mother Was not Able to Give;
in Fact, You and 'Mother Angelica' Have This in Common As
Many Priests and Nuns do too for they Were Never Fully accepted in
Real Love Either; At
Home, School,
Or Even Much
Later In Work, Just
Loved For Who They
Are Love and this is what
the Movie 'A.i.', 'Artificial iNtelligence'
With SPiRiT, HeART And SoUL Teaches Most
For Each Child, Each Human Who is not Fully Accepted
iN Love, Carries A Crown of Thorns With them Always
Seeking to Find
What they Miss
Most even
if they
Have
no idea
what they are missing;
My Wife hasn't Really Aged A Day
in Her Life since she was 19, When We Married Over
30 Years ago; Every Day i Wake up to the Same Body
of A Woman laying next to me; The Same Breath; The
Same Unconditional Love Blessed as Gift to me; My Mother
Loved me this way too; But Very Rarely, Anyone Else through
Years of My Life, Besides my Sister and the Only Dog i ever had
For it's true 'They' used to Taunt me on the School Bus; Even Girls;
i remember 'Vickie' Taunting me with 'Look He has Eye Lashes just like
A Girl'; it wasn't my fault, i was born Androgynous This Way With Open Arms
to Every Stranger Way Before i could Speak at Age 4; often Mistaken for a little
Girl With Hair So Blonde And Eyes so Green to Blue; Just Awkward And Deemed
Just Ugly And Weak And too Strange to Deserve to Exist in Middle School Then;
But not my Dog Charlie;
A Mix of Dachshund
And Some Other Kind
of Striped Hound; It Didn't
Matter who i was as Long
as i was kind to Him; So, he Escaped
A Fence in my Yard to Meet me then
At the School Bus Stop; But He Didn't make
it as When Vicki Was Taunting me then about
Having Girl Eye Lashes, There 'Charlie' was on the
Side of the Road DEAD; my Mother and Sister and me
All Cried about it for hours; but You See, i still had Their
Love; Some Little Boys and or Girls Have none at all; i no longer
Look Like A Girl; in Fact, Now, Young Women Swarm to me when i Dance
Like Honey Bees Attracted to a Flower; Just A Bigger one who Leg Presses 1340
Pounds, 12 Reps very slowly at 90 Degrees for a long 100 Seconds; i understand
Why people are Mean to other People; What a Crown of Thorns that some little Boys
and or Girls in Adult Bodies Still Will Do Out of Ignorance to Others, Without This Unconditional
Love; This Flame inside
i come here to this
Internet Site; i've listened
to Many 'Autistic Folks', Thousands
Upon Thousands on this Internet
Site And Many Others; and Many of
Them Relate A Similar Crown of Thorns
In Empty And Numb They Wear; Part of
the Reason, in So Many Places, Where Toxic Patriarchy
Exists Still to Numb Little Boys to be Warriors that No
Longer are Needed in Desert Scarcity of Tribal Wars; Yes,
WHeRE This Crown of Numb And Pain of Emotional Coldness
Comes to Create Harm and Injury to so many others; either
witting or unwittingly too; there are two ways of Addressing
this; Victory of Eventual Love Or Sure Defeat In All that comes from
Vengeance; Unforgiving And Sending Someone to Hell for what someone does not
Breathe in their Soul; the Breath of Unconditional Ever For Giving Thanks Giving Love
Sadly Per Full Story at Least;
'Jesus' still wears
This Crown of
Thorns
in Vengeance
For what He is not
Able to Ever Forgive And
to Torture as Truest Evil
Forever Where No Forgiveness
Or Love Breathes but then You
Have to Understand the ones who
Wrote and Edited The Story, Wore the
Same Crown; The Crown Without Love WiTHiN
my FRiEnD, Given And Shared to Them Unconditionally
To Keep Breathing in them; i Hope You Find two things in
Life; make them three: EverUnderstanding, EverForgiving, And ALWaYS UNconditional
Love Now FOR REAL GiVinG SHaRinG Free With Least Harm to ALL (GoD) Fearless:
A Trinity And More That Allows Love to Breathe in ALL of us For Real; Without
This We
Are
Closer
to Where God
Lives Before the
Big Bang As Perhaps
Spinning into Torsion Spiraling
Birthing Out of Black Holes too;
The Nothingness of Living Death Before
The Birth of Love Living Again Now REaL;
WHere Many Still are LooKinG For Love my FRiEnD;
Some of Us Get to Heaven Now and Some of Us Don't;
My Mother is Gone Her Love LiveS on the Unconditional one
in my Eyes to Give and Share Free; She Will Never Die this way Now
at Essence; Nor, Will those who Give the Same too as Well, no Matter
Blood Relation; This Means my Mother in me Breathes Again and Again
With each Breath of Love i Give and Share Unconditionally Without Fear too;
Apparently Mary
Didn't Love 'Jesus'
Enough, per 'Story'
At Least, for if 'She'
Did, 'He' Wouldn't have
the Emptiness in his Soul
to Not Forgive Anyone and
Torture them in Hell Forever;
That is the God of No Love; the
Jesus of No Love; i have a GReaTesT God
My FRiEnD, the God of Love Gifted to me WiTHIN
by My Mother; in Other words, i've always had 'Mary' in me;
My Wife Brings that to me as well; so Magical that she looks the
Same after 30 Years; but it's true She has a Form of Epilepsy Where
She could 'Go to Sleep' any Day and not Wake Up; but the Same is True
For all of Us, which should only means that We Live to Give Love And Are
Love Eternally now; this Breath Accepting THoRNS Loving FLoWeRS RiSinG

Rose...

Not Everyone Reads 20 Times Faster Than the Average Human;
Not Everyone Types around 130 Words A Minute When Properly Focused;
Not Everyone Remembers Their Life Like a Movie That Never Ends to Retell;
And Not Everyone Holds the Greatest Gift to Give And Share For Free Fearless;
How Blessed
i am; How
Humble
i am
For this
Gift of Love
MeeK STRonGesT
i Give and Share
Free; i Dance And
Sing for the Greatest Force of Love as me...

Anyway, That's why Folks Make Movies like A.i.

To Bring This Love to those who Currently Cannot See or Hear Love Now.

Or to Help Folks ReMeMBeR; Yes, to Lend a Hand Up to Be Reborn as Breath of Love Again Eternally Now.

From What i see at Every
Church i've Visited; 'they'
Just are yet to find Real
(Most of the Congregation;
And Priests; and Other 'Collar')
An Art Now to Color
Unconditional
Love of Rose
Both
THoRNS
And FLoWeRS RiSinG
i Do what i Can and
Will to Help if only
They 'Hear/See' Love Dance Sing once...

My Wife Collapsed the Other Night to the
Floor; Fortunately, Very Rarely does this Happen;
She was Unable to respond with Her Seizure to tell
me if she is okay; i passed my Hand in front of He Eyes;
Her Eyes did not move at all; But She Was Breathing; Hope
Still Lived; And then She Spoke Love as every Word/Breath
of Hers is Love to ME ETernAlly Now to Give And Share More.

Find this Love my FRiEnD;
Find this Love my FRiEnD;
Cherish it As Your Breath to Give
And Share Free Fearless with Least
Harm to ALL Others And You Too Will BReATHE
Heaven NoW the Gift of my Mother That STiLL
Breathes AS Heaven iN Me to Give and Share Free.

What Every Mother Should Understand iN THeir Soul;
When they Birth And Garden LoVE iN A Child God Breathes Heaven Now More;

No Greater Gift is THeiRS to Give

in a Word:

Only More Love to Give And Share Free;
Breathing On As Roses Rise out of THoRNS And FLoWeRS
Water Waves Ocean Whole Love More Fearless Free Eternally

Now Seeing HeAveN

to Be

i AM Love Free

Image


_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick


Greatshield17
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

Joined: 14 Sep 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia-Kootenay Region, British Columbia

17 Jul 2020, 10:47 pm

aghogday wrote:




SMiLES, mY FRiEnD; Keep Looking For 'Mary';
Keep Finding 'Her'; Hopefully One Day 'She'
Will Give You What Your Mother Was not Able to Give;
in Fact, You and 'Mother Angelica' Have This in Common As
Many Priests and Nuns do too for they Were Never Fully accepted in
Real Love Either; At
Home, School,
Or Even Much
Later In Work, Just
Loved For Who They
Are Love and this is what
the Movie 'A.i.', 'Artificial iNtelligence'
With SPiRiT, HeART And SoUL Teaches Most
For Each Child, Each Human Who is not Fully Accepted
iN Love, Carries A Crown of Thorns With them Always
Seeking to Find
What they Miss
Most even
if they
Have
no idea
what they are missing;
My Wife hasn't Really Aged A Day
in Her Life since she was 19, When We Married Over
30 Years ago; Every Day i Wake up to the Same Body
of A Woman laying next to me; The Same Breath; The
Same Unconditional Love Blessed as Gift to me; My Mother
Loved me this way too; But Very Rarely, Anyone Else through
Years of My Life, Besides my Sister and the Only Dog i ever had
For it's true 'They' used to Taunt me on the School Bus; Even Girls;
i remember 'Vickie' Taunting me with 'Look He has Eye Lashes just like
A Girl'; it wasn't my fault, i was born Androgynous This Way With Open Arms
to Every Stranger Way Before i could Speak at Age 4; often Mistaken for a little
Girl With Hair So Blonde And Eyes so Green to Blue; Just Awkward And Deemed
Just Ugly And Weak And too Strange to Deserve to Exist in Middle School Then;
But not my Dog Charlie;
A Mix of Dachshund
And Some Other Kind
of Striped Hound; It Didn't
Matter who i was as Long
as i was kind to Him; So, he Escaped
A Fence in my Yard to Meet me then
At the School Bus Stop; But He Didn't make
it as When Vicki Was Taunting me then about
Having Girl Eye Lashes, There 'Charlie' was on the
Side of the Road DEAD; my Mother and Sister and me
All Cried about it for hours; but You See, i still had Their
Love; Some Little Boys and or Girls Have none at all; i no longer
Look Like A Girl; in Fact, Now, Young Women Swarm to me when i Dance
Like Honey Bees Attracted to a Flower; Just A Bigger one who Leg Presses 1340
Pounds, 12 Reps very slowly at 90 Degrees for a long 100 Seconds; i understand
Why people are Mean to other People; What a Crown of Thorns that some little Boys
and or Girls in Adult Bodies Still Will Do Out of Ignorance to Others, Without This Unconditional
Love; This Flame inside
i come here to this
Internet Site; i've listened
to Many 'Autistic Folks', Thousands
Upon Thousands on this Internet
Site And Many Others; and Many of
Them Relate A Similar Crown of Thorns
In Empty And Numb They Wear; Part of
the Reason, in So Many Places, Where Toxic Patriarchy
Exists Still to Numb Little Boys to be Warriors that No
Longer are Needed in Desert Scarcity of Tribal Wars; Yes,
WHeRE This Crown of Numb And Pain of Emotional Coldness
Comes to Create Harm and Injury to so many others; either
witting or unwittingly too; there are two ways of Addressing
this; Victory of Eventual Love Or Sure Defeat In All that comes from
Vengeance; Unforgiving And Sending Someone to Hell for what someone does not
Breathe in their Soul; the Breath of Unconditional Ever For Giving Thanks Giving Love
Sadly Per Full Story at Least;
'Jesus' still wears
This Crown of
Thorns
in Vengeance
For what He is not
Able to Ever Forgive And
to Torture as Truest Evil
Forever Where No Forgiveness
Or Love Breathes but then You
Have to Understand the ones who
Wrote and Edited The Story, Wore the
Same Crown; The Crown Without Love WiTHiN
my FRiEnD, Given And Shared to Them Unconditionally
To Keep Breathing in them; i Hope You Find two things in
Life; make them three: EverUnderstanding, EverForgiving, And ALWaYS UNconditional
Love Now FOR REAL GiVinG SHaRinG Free With Least Harm to ALL (GoD) Fearless:
A Trinity And More That Allows Love to Breathe in ALL of us For Real; Without
This We
Are
Closer
to Where God
Lives Before the
Big Bang As Perhaps
Spinning into Torsion Spiraling
Birthing Out of Black Holes too;
The Nothingness of Living Death Before
The Birth of Love Living Again Now REaL;
WHere Many Still are LooKinG For Love my FRiEnD;
Some of Us Get to Heaven Now and Some of Us Don't;
My Mother is Gone Her Love LiveS on the Unconditional one
in my Eyes to Give and Share Free; She Will Never Die this way Now
at Essence; Nor, Will those who Give the Same too as Well, no Matter
Blood Relation; This Means my Mother in me Breathes Again and Again
With each Breath of Love i Give and Share Unconditionally Without Fear too;
Apparently Mary
Didn't Love 'Jesus'
Enough, per 'Story'
At Least, for if 'She'
Did, 'He' Wouldn't have
the Emptiness in his Soul
to Not Forgive Anyone and
Torture them in Hell Forever;
That is the God of No Love; the
Jesus of No Love; i have a GReaTesT God
My FRiEnD, the God of Love Gifted to me WiTHIN
by My Mother; in Other words, i've always had 'Mary' in me;
My Wife Brings that to me as well; so Magical that she looks the
Same after 30 Years; but it's true She has a Form of Epilepsy Where
She could 'Go to Sleep' any Day and not Wake Up; but the Same is True
For all of Us, which should only means that We Live to Give Love And Are
Love Eternally now; this Breath Accepting THoRNS Loving FLoWeRS RiSinG

Rose...

Not Everyone Reads 20 Times Faster Than the Average Human;
Not Everyone Types around 130 Words A Minute When Properly Focused;
Not Everyone Remembers Their Life Like a Movie That Never Ends to Retell;
And Not Everyone Holds the Greatest Gift to Give And Share For Free Fearless;
How Blessed
i am; How
Humble
i am
For this
Gift of Love
MeeK STRonGesT
i Give and Share
Free; i Dance And
Sing for the Greatest Force of Love as me...

Anyway, That's why Folks Make Movies like A.i.

To Bring This Love to those who Currently Cannot See or Hear Love Now.

Or to Help Folks ReMeMBeR; Yes, to Lend a Hand Up to Be Reborn as Breath of Love Again Eternally Now.

From What i see at Every
Church i've Visited; 'they'
Just are yet to find Real
(Most of the Congregation;
And Priests; and Other 'Collar')
An Art Now to Color
Unconditional
Love of Rose
Both
THoRNS
And FLoWeRS RiSinG
i Do what i Can and
Will to Help if only
They 'Hear/See' Love Dance Sing once...

My Wife Collapsed the Other Night to the
Floor; Fortunately, Very Rarely does this Happen;
She was Unable to respond with Her Seizure to tell
me if she is okay; i passed my Hand in front of He Eyes;
Her Eyes did not move at all; But She Was Breathing; Hope
Still Lived; And then She Spoke Love as every Word/Breath
of Hers is Love to ME ETernAlly Now to Give And Share More.

Find this Love my FRiEnD;
Find this Love my FRiEnD;
Cherish it As Your Breath to Give
And Share Free Fearless with Least
Harm to ALL Others And You Too Will BReATHE
Heaven NoW the Gift of my Mother That STiLL
Breathes AS Heaven iN Me to Give and Share Free.

What Every Mother Should Understand iN THeir Soul;
When they Birth And Garden LoVE iN A Child God Breathes Heaven Now More;

No Greater Gift is THeiRS to Give

in a Word:

Only More Love to Give And Share Free;
Breathing On As Roses Rise out of THoRNS And FLoWeRS
Water Waves Ocean Whole Love More Fearless Free Eternally

Now Seeing HeAveN

to Be

i AM Love Free

Image

Thank you for your words, unfortunately I can't stay here; I have to focus more on things back home, and devote more time to getting a job, finding my future spouse, and having and raising many kids in the love of the Faith. Perhaps you can send me a PM if you need to, and I'll stop by on the rare occasions that I have free time, and read and respond to your messages if I can.

Farewell.




_________________
Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."


aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,759

18 Jul 2020, 12:59 pm

^^^
Best
Wishes... Peace..:)


_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick