Two posts on a Traditional Catholic Forum site

Page 2 of 4 [ 59 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 42,460
Location: Stendec

23 Jul 2020, 11:53 am

He'll be back.  They always come back.


_________________
"I must acknowledge, once and for all, that the purpose of diplomacy is to prolong a crisis."
-- Leonard Nimoy as Mr. Spock, in the Star Trek episode "The Mark of Gideon" (ep. 3.16, 1969)


Steve1963
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

Joined: 9 Jun 2020
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 223
Location: western MA, USA

23 Jul 2020, 12:13 pm

I certainly wasn't trolling. If someone attempts to proselytize to me, I expect them to be able to defend their point of view.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 42,460
Location: Stendec

23 Jul 2020, 12:23 pm

Steve1963 wrote:
I certainly wasn't trolling. If someone attempts to proselytize to me, I expect them to be able to defend their point of view.
Same here.  I also expect them to clearly demonstrate why they believe their religion -- especially one prone to blatant idolatry and ineffective rituals -- is somehow superior to every other religion without resorting to circular arguments, slander, lies, and dogmatic belief in mythological events and fictitious beings.

It is not "trolling" to disagree with another person; it is not "trolling" to point out factual errors; it is not "trolling" to obviate hypocrisy; it is not "trolling" to illuminate fallacious reasoning; and it is not "trolling" to ask for proof of claim.


_________________
"I must acknowledge, once and for all, that the purpose of diplomacy is to prolong a crisis."
-- Leonard Nimoy as Mr. Spock, in the Star Trek episode "The Mark of Gideon" (ep. 3.16, 1969)


vermontsavant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,227
Location: The Hoosac tunnel

23 Jul 2020, 12:56 pm

Fnord wrote:
Steve1963 wrote:
I certainly wasn't trolling. If someone attempts to proselytize to me, I expect them to be able to defend their point of view.
Same here.  I also expect them to clearly demonstrate why they believe their religion -- especially one prone to blatant idolatry and ineffective rituals -- is somehow superior to every other religion without resorting to circular arguments, slander, lies, and dogmatic belief in mythological events and fictitious beings.

It is not "trolling" to disagree with another person; it is not "trolling" to point out factual errors; it is not "trolling" to illuminate fallacious reasoning; and it is not "trolling" to ask for proof of claim.
A couple observations:

You used the phrase "blatant idolatry" to criticize catholicism,ok,fair,if your really a sincere practicing protestant but posts you have made in the past are not consistent a protestant world view.A serious bible believing protestant would not use the story of Yiftach(or Jephtach) and his daughter in a context of putting down the bible as mysoginist.

I personally don't care what your religion is,but your posts smell of trolling and I think you know that.


_________________
Interesting and off beat news stories


Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 42,460
Location: Stendec

23 Jul 2020, 1:28 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
A serious bible believing protestant would not use the story of Yiftach(or Jephtach) and his daughter in a context of putting down the bible as mysoginist.
True.  But this "serious Bible-believing protestant" you cite would use the same story in the context of putting value on one's daughter, as well as making insincere vows to G^D.  Also, "Bible" should always be capitalized when referring to the collection of stories from the New and Old Testaments -- a serious Bible-believer would know that, too.

Oh, and the word is spelled "misogynist", not "mysoginist".
vermontsavant wrote:
I personally don't care what your religion is...
Good. I'm glad to know that.
vermontsavant wrote:
... but your posts smell of trolling and I think you know that.
Thank you for sharing.  Have a nice day!

:D


_________________
"I must acknowledge, once and for all, that the purpose of diplomacy is to prolong a crisis."
-- Leonard Nimoy as Mr. Spock, in the Star Trek episode "The Mark of Gideon" (ep. 3.16, 1969)


vermontsavant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,227
Location: The Hoosac tunnel

23 Jul 2020, 1:47 pm

Fnord wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
A serious bible believing protestant would not use the story of Yiftach(or Jephtach) and his daughter in a context of putting down the bible as mysoginist.
True.  But this "serious Bible-believing protestant" you cite would use the same story in the context of putting value on one's daughter, as well as making insincere vows to G^D.  Also, "Bible" should always be capitalized when referring to the collection of stories from the New and Old Testaments -- a serious Bible-believer would know that, too.

Oh, and the word is spelled "misogynist", not "mysoginist".
vermontsavant wrote:
I personally don't care what your religion is...
Good. I'm glad to know that.
vermontsavant wrote:
... but your posts smell of trolling and I think you know that.
Thank you for sharing.  Have a nice day!

:D
I never claimed to be a serious Bible believer,I'm sorry my spelling is not the best and it's cute your concerned about capitalization and if you want to be a real snob you could say Tanakh and B,rit Chadashah.

But the point is your interested in trolling and not serious theology,and you know that,have a nice day :D


_________________
Interesting and off beat news stories


aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,759

23 Jul 2020, 1:53 pm



Order Is From Fear;
Beauty is for
Unfettered Potential.

The Architecture of the Catholic
Church i Visit Once a Week for Almost
7 Years Now is indeed A Temple And
Interesting to Look at With A First Glance But
it Gets Boring Pretty Quick as the 'Brick And Mortar' Never Changes.

It's Like the Statue of Jesus, Thank God, Without That 'Depressing Cross';
A Revised Ascending Jesus Dude with His Arms Reached into the So-Called
Heavens; but of course against the Intended Message that Heaven Is Really Only
At Hand Always NoW in this Generation Within When We Seek And Find Love to Give And
Share Freely With All Others in Greater Than Golden Rule way of Harming Others And The Rest of
Nature (God) the Least; which also means Cognitive Empathy and Not only Just Sympathy and Compassion alone
in other words
understanding
that yes there are
Folks who are Open
Minded And Who Love
Change Rather Fearless and
Rarely Neurotic; Whereas, there
Are Others More Fear Filled, Closed Minded
And Neurotic Afraid of the Natural Unfettered
Chaos Magic of Nature That Makes A Forest
And Beach Ever Changing in Waves, Trees, And Other Moving Challenge.

Fortunately, for me; i don't Live in a Neighborhood Where All the Leaves
of Grass must be cut the same way, neatly trimmed around Sidewalks that do not Change
Either In Ways of Concrete Away from Changing Colors of Green Breathing Unfettered Free.

Last Year, a Hot Drought in Florida Scorched And Thirsted the Grass Away to Brown; Over the
Winter A Forest of Wild Weeds and Flowers Made A Winter Wonderland Still Alive, A Treat to See;
When Nature Takes Her Natural Place From Above a Landscape of Wild; Weeds And Flowers look
no Less Diverse Than A Tropical Jungle Colored From iPhone Camera View Above; Yes, a Jungle in
A Square Foot that Might Otherwise Just Be Stale old Boring Green Growing One way Just Green
With no Colors of Beauty More to all Naturally Bring Heaven to Eyes Who Do See as a Child Will
Always
LooKinG
For Change
And Meeting
Whatever Challenge
Comes Next; How We
Grow Stagnant in Our
Traditions oF Old but
It's True When GRoWinG
A New Jungle Breathing
Life Just Now is What it's All About;
Hail Weeds and Wild Flowers Same Hail Life Hail Essence
of Existence Unfettered Chaos Magic Beauty of Nature (God) Now;

i Still Visit Church
as i am Curious
About It All,
DarK Thru
LiGHT,
Art
Or Ignorance;
Science and Just
Plain
Boring....

Still,
That's Life;
Take iT All in
Exhale And i for DancE SinG NoW;
JusT FeeL, It's Great to Be ALiVE
NoW As That's Enough When One
Masters All CoNTeNT ThiS way
Faith Of Other People Doesn't
Bother Me, For i am not Afraid to Relate
All i BeLieVE iN No Fear to Hide any Part of who i am....

i Find People Who Hide Who They are as Weaker than
Those Who Tell Their Truth iN LiGHT oR DarK no matter
what it is; to be or not to be who one is or not; THere
Are No Secrets WHhere i Live...

Inspired by the Weeds
And Wild Flowers in my
Back Yard today as They Stand Out
As They Are Not Afraid to Fully Express What they are;
So Much More Resilient they are to Any Environmental
Challenge that comes...

i'm More Interested
In Knowing Who Someone
Is Than What they BeLiEVE iN
For Most often the Two Do Not Match
As The Truth is We aRE all Mostly Ruled From WiTHiN;
And This is why the Greatest Poverty is Never Touching
and Expressing all of Nature (Soul) WiTHiN; Whoever Wrote
that Part of the so-Called JeSuS Story Really Had it All ToGeTHeR WiTHiN;

Lovely
Ghost
Writer Indeed;
Abstract Statues; Yes,
Idols of Words That Really
Express Essence That Means Breath Now..:)


_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick


funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,468
Location: I'm on the streets like curbs

25 Jul 2020, 12:26 am

vermontsavant wrote:
magz wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
Mr Greatshield may be the first Catholic but is not the first.
I've noticed some Catholics on WP, just regularily posting without making everything about religion.

vermontsavant wrote:
8,10 years ago evangelism was quite common in the PPR forum,mostly Protestant fundamentalist but none the less quite common.

I actually saw a born again Evangelical post in the Woman's forum a few months back.I don't normally check that forum but the post was on the new post list on WP homepage.

In the last five years evangelism has become quite rare in PPR but GS has the right to get his message out if he wishes.
Okay, Greatshield is free to preach for Catholicism, Fnord is free to reuse centuries-old Protestant arguments on him, some militiant atheist is free to join and the rest of us is free not to read any of this. I like clear rules, thanks!

Yes Magz,I fully agree people have the right to argue there points and I think that's great.

However when arguments turn to clear trolling and ridicule that becomes a problem.Now we have lost another member because people thought it fun to ridicule someone.We have lost what,15 members in the last month because of trolling.

When will they ever learn?


When does disagreement reach the level of trolling? Was AngelRho trolling me by vomiting up the same tired white supremacist talking points, or was that just disagreement? Should he get a pass because the ignorant deserve compassion? Is it trolling when someone sticks to talking points or comments on a topic they know much less about than the person they're arguing with? How about when caustic language is used? How about when we disagree on whether a label is descriptive or insulting?

From what I've seen we've largely have members leave because they don't like being disagreed with and they especially can't handle disagreements they can't claim to have won.

I feel like OP's post puts forward an interesting topic for debate though; can religious fundamentalists fully participate in secular society? Whether the person is Catholic or Pentecostal or Wahhabist, there hypothetically comes a point where one's religious views are in such conflict with the 'corrupt' secular world that engagment would seem to be impaired. Liberal/secular humanist views at some point will come in direct conflict with religious moral codes, capitalist views will most certainly do that, contemporary egalitarian ideals (like in matters of gender, gender identity and sexuality) will be compromised for certain.

Some religions are less suited for fundamentalist interpretations, but of the ones that seem to create it, it seems unlikely that their dogma and reality are able to be reconciled.


_________________
Jesus was black, Ronald Reagan was the devil and the government is lying about 9/11.


vermontsavant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,227
Location: The Hoosac tunnel

25 Jul 2020, 1:05 am

funeralxempire wrote:

When does disagreement reach the level of trolling? Was AngelRho trolling me by vomiting up the same tired white supremacist talking points, or was that just disagreement? Should he get a pass because the ignorant deserve compassion? Is it trolling when someone sticks to talking points or comments on a topic they know much less about than the person they're arguing with? How about when caustic language is used? How about when we disagree on whether a label is descriptive or insulting?

From what I've seen we've largely have members leave because they don't like being disagreed with and they especially can't handle disagreements they can't claim to have won.

I feel like OP's post puts forward an interesting topic for debate though; can religious fundamentalists fully participate in secular society? Whether the person is Catholic or Pentecostal or Wahhabist, there hypothetically comes a point where one's religious views are in such conflict with the 'corrupt' secular world that engagment would seem to be impaired. Liberal/secular humanist views at some point will come in direct conflict with religious moral codes, capitalist views will most certainly do that, contemporary egalitarian ideals (like in matters of gender, gender identity and sexuality) will be compromised for certain.

Some religions are less suited for fundamentalist interpretations, but of the ones that seem to create it, it seems unlikely that their dogma and reality are able to be reconciled.
I am all in favor of legit theological disagreement,when peoples real feelings about religion come to a head.

This post is Catholic and many other denominations,protestant,Eastern Orthodox,Oriental Orthodox don't agree with the Catholic Gospel.And of coarse Jews don't believe Jesus was Messiah/Mashiach and view Christianity as idolatry(worship of idols).

These viewpoints are fine to argue,they have been argued for 2,000 years and caused many wars along the way.

The people mocking Greatshield from there arguments were clearly not religious and were pshychologically abusing Greatshield just for the fun of trolling.There is a difference between legit heated disagreement and trolling for the fun of abusing people.


_________________
Interesting and off beat news stories


magz
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,507
Location: Poland

25 Jul 2020, 4:33 am

vermontsavant wrote:
The people mocking Greatshield from there arguments were clearly not religious and were pshychologically abusing Greatshield just for the fun of trolling.

How do you assess that?


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.


vermontsavant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,227
Location: The Hoosac tunnel

25 Jul 2020, 4:47 am

magz wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
The people mocking Greatshield from there arguments were clearly not religious and were pshychologically abusing Greatshield just for the fun of trolling.

How do you assess that?
From what they said,the arguments they used,it seems obvious.


_________________
Interesting and off beat news stories


magz
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jun 2017
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,507
Location: Poland

25 Jul 2020, 5:03 am

I'm not so sure. There are people who genuinely hate the Catholic Church.

As a person who was raised Catholic but later grew to be agnostic, I was quite intensively targeted by Mr Greatshield a few months ago, in a way that quite triggered me. As a reaction, I went silent in his threads and I had to repeat several times a request not to be PM-ed.
However, I expect engagement in a very emotional, possibly even personal and agressive exchange a more likely reaction to the treatment I got.


_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.


Steve1963
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

Joined: 9 Jun 2020
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 223
Location: western MA, USA

25 Jul 2020, 5:20 am

vermontsavant wrote:
The people mocking Greatshield from there arguments were clearly not religious and were pshychologically abusing Greatshield just for the fun of trolling.

Again, I wasn't trolling anyone. And, while I'm an agnostic now, I was raised a fundamentalist Christian. All I wanted was for him to interpret a passage of scripture for me. Apologies for not phrasing my question to your liking.



aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,759

25 Jul 2020, 12:16 pm



Hehe; Well i happen to be a Person with
Close to A Photographic Memory For Read Text;
Ugh, in Volumes of Innumerable Words; Skipped
On Being A Lawyer; too Dam Bland And Boring for me;
Anyway, i Clearly Remember, Mr. Fnord, Fully Believing
in 'Black And White Literal Protestant', SuperNatural Jesus;
Just As Dead Or Breathing as the Myth of Mary For What
Folks Still
'Create' Of IT;

For What Value
That Brings
to Them.

That Part i
find Amusing;
Pot Calling the Kettle 'White';
Particularly When The Pot Assesses
Itself As Rational, Not Believing in 'Magic'.

Just Goes to Show
We All BeLieVE iN
Some Kind of MaGiC,
If We Get through this
Life in Best Shape of Colors over Gray and Dead Living;
Hail Mary; Hail Jesus; Hail God; Hail Whatever Makes You the F Happy AS HEaven
In Other Wise Hell, if You Don't Make A Little More Magic in Your Life than Grey and Dead Living...

It gives me
Great Pleasure
That Fnord Believes
in Jesus; no Different
Than GreatShield Believing
in Mary as 'Puff The Magic Dragon' is
Cool With Both 'Sexual Organs' to Play with too..

For Some Folks At Least;
What Ever Turns Stars
Into Love Written in

'Stones' too...

Hell Heaven Everyone
Will Choose Sides with
Their Own Colors of Magic
Or JusT
Yuck
BLacK
And White Life
So Grey, So Bland, So Colorless
And Boring Living Practically Dead
Barely Breathing Any Colors of LoVinG LiFE

At All...

What'S A Difference Between A Protestant
Arguing With A Catholic About Who is More
Real, Jesus or Mary; None; Just Absolutely
None at Essence (Love) of Belief iN Magic at Least For Now....

For They are
Both Only
Statues in
Text of An
Old Poetry Book
That Folks Can't Seem
to Wipe the Dust off of to
Become Their Own 'Jesus And or Mary' for Real NOW.

This Poetry; Those Books; Are for Folks to Be Inspired to Become Someone More than Just
Statues, Words, Etched in Stone on Pages of Books With Covers only Collecting Dust At the

Bottom of an Ocean Cold.

They Are Just Poems That A Group of Folks Made into A God To Worship As Words;

Only
Souls
Breathing
of the Ghost
Authors Words
Mostly Now Still

BoWinG DowN and
Worshipping Authors...
Pens still Weld the Greatest Might in Story Now;

Where the Souls of Authors Etched in Stone Become A Mightier God of Others...

Most of the Authors, most Likely, Never Guessed they would Be Worshipped this way for Centuries..

What's 'Trump' Doing to Achieve this? Etching Statues of His Initials on Cold Structures of Buildings and Humans Same.

What Do they all have in Common; Stone, Just Idols of Human Souls Believing In Other Souls Before Breathing on THeiR Own Eternally Now And Even Truly Remembered As Souls of Love True in Light too; Just to Give And Share Free Like
the Original
Ghost
Authors
of the Bible
Who Never
Sought to Be
Worshipped as Souls
The way their Spirit Still is Now For Real in Stone at least...

If someone can't understand me; There ain't No Way they Understand

Parables of any other 'Bible' either;

At Least Not Deeper
Meanings of the
Poetry to breathe
other than
what
has
been
Spoon-Fed to them
by Whoever Colored
'The Poetry' Differently As
Someone Else IN CHARGE OF THEM.

i've Faced the Same Issues in the Poetry World;
'Physics Professors' Using the Science of Poetry Same to
Create Strings of Words in Paint By NumBeR Instruction
Having No Frigging Clue what the Depth of the Poetry coming
From my Soul Dances And Sings in Free Verse the Oldest Oral And
Written Tradition of the Human Spirit Free without Sidewalks of Science Alone.

Meanwhile, Folks From Other Countries Who Have Lived According to Soul have no Problem at all
understanding
each and
every word
That Their Soul
Actually Sees and
Hears as it is Still Open
And not Closed by Sidewalk Narrow
Instruction since 4 years Old... Oh God Ugh...

No Matter which
Kind of 'Sunday School'
That Tunnel Vision DieS iN
Slowly Darker until there is
Nothing left of Soul to See or Even Breathe Free

Barely Breathing Story; the State of Affairs, Particularly
In 'Western Ways' of Consuming The Earth Like A Dead Thing;
Forgetting the Breath of Nature; Yes, God Living in All Existence Now As SPiRiT Free...

Write Your Own Bible; Create Your Own Living Breath of Spirit LovinG iT aLL AS HeART oF SoUL;

Or not, seems

simple enough to me

at least.... to Actually DO NoW iN
Eternal Autotelic Flow of Frission in
Never Ending Peaks of Plateau in this
Kingdom of Heaven Within At Least NoW FOR REAL i AcTuALLY Breathe

more than
stone
words
that
these are
just trying
to Breathe on THeir Own
At least for those Equipped
to Consume This Free Meal/Drink of SouL i Provide Just for Fun...
FLicKeR FLaME ThE Story of My Soul DaNCinG SinGinG For ReaL NoW
Ain't Gone OuT iNto PAges oF Old... With JusT DusT Covers Collecting On Souls of Others...


_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick


starkid
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Feb 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,401
Location: California Bay Area

25 Jul 2020, 12:39 pm

Totally unclear what the point of this thread is. Two posts from a Catholic forum...for what? What about them? What is the topic here?


_________________
Masculinity and femininity are made up of gender roles and gender stereotypes; they are social constructs, not personal traits. No one is masculine and no one is feminine.


vermontsavant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,227
Location: The Hoosac tunnel

25 Jul 2020, 12:57 pm

starkid wrote:
Totally unclear what the point of this thread is. Two posts from a Catholic forum...for what? What about them? What is the topic here?


The thread got derailed and the OP swore to never come back to WP due to bullying.


_________________
Interesting and off beat news stories