Police shooting in Wisconsin,protests erupt

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cyberdad
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09 Sep 2020, 2:35 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
cberg wrote:
I for one know kids with assault rifles are full of s**t. :roll:

Your total ignorance towards the concept of range safety, as if military weapons belong with high schoolers who don't know to lock them the f**k up during riots, is very telling.

This kid shot human beings knowingly. Yeah, walk it back.


Unless you have access to material I don't, there does not seem to be any assault rifles nor military rifles involved here.


I thought an AR15 .223 is a rifle?



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09 Sep 2020, 2:39 am

A rifle, yes.

A military rifle? No. That's the M16.

An assault rifle? Not unless capable of fully automatic fire.


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09 Sep 2020, 2:40 am

cyberdad wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
cberg wrote:
I for one know kids with assault rifles are full of s**t. :roll:

Your total ignorance towards the concept of range safety, as if military weapons belong with high schoolers who don't know to lock them the f**k up during riots, is very telling.

This kid shot human beings knowingly. Yeah, walk it back.


Unless you have access to material I don't, there does not seem to be any assault rifles nor military rifles involved here.


I thought an AR15 .223 is a rifle?


So is a "Lee Enfield" .303 - It still doesn't make them an assault rifle or a military rifle, which were the specific categories of rifles under discussion...


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cyberdad
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09 Sep 2020, 2:42 am

So what I still don't get is if you are charged with a misdemeanor under Wisconsin law (possession of a deadly weapon while under the age of 18)

So open carry is legal for over 18s but not for minors. Rittenhouse obtained the rife illegally from a friend.
So the first guy who was shot in the face, was actually a result of Kyle shooting into the crowd, afterwards he still was carrying an illegal gun in a different state. That means “self defense ploy” doesn’t come into play since it was illegal to beginning with.

There's also the issue of Kyle going home and deleting his facebook page (which everyone is avoiding)
The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reported that Rittenhouse considered himself a member of a militia, and a militia called the Kenosha Guard had put out a “call to arms” saying in a Facebook post, “Any patriots willing to take up arms and defend our City tonight from the evil thugs? No doubt they are currently planning on the next part of the City to burn tonight,” according to the Kenosha News.

That Facebook page has since been taken down, with accusations that it was too little too late as the social media giant is accused of disregarding warnings from users that the page was being used to organize for violence.

Kevin Mathewson is the man who wrote that post on a page he started called the “Kenosha Guard–Armed Citizens to protect our Lives and Property” page on Facebook in June. He told Kenosha News that he doesn’t regret his call to arms, but claims he doesn’t condone the teenage boy being out late and possessing the AR-15 Rifle.

He told Kenosha News, “I have never spoken to Kyle. He had no business being out that late. He had no business being in possession of a firearm.”



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09 Sep 2020, 2:47 am

cyberdad wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
when video and other evidence already demonstrated he did not have one, and that one was not required for a "self defence" claim isn't exactly providing evidence, though...


That's up to the court to decide based on the laws. Walking toward somebody with a plastic bag warranted lethal force.

I'd assume the video showing no gun in his hand wouldn't need a court to determine anything based on laws.

Chasing someone without provocation, throwning an object in a bag at a person who was running from you, then trying to grab a weapon from them may have warranted lethal force...

I do appreciate your (admittedly pathetic) attempts at misdirection with the claim (disproven in multiple videos) that the victim was "Walking toward somebody with a plastic bag"...


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Brictoria
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09 Sep 2020, 3:08 am

Not sure where you are pulling this from...

cyberdad wrote:
So what I still don't get is if you are charged with a misdemeanor under Wisconsin law (possession of a deadly weapon while under the age of 18)

So open carry is legal for over 18s but not for minors. Rittenhouse obtained the rife illegally from a friend.
So the first guy who was shot in the face, was actually a result of Kyle shooting into the crowd, afterwards he still was carrying an illegal gun in a different state. That means “self defense ploy” doesn’t come into play since it was illegal to beginning with.


To start with, I haven't seen any reports of him "shooting into the crowd"...The only shooting reported that I have seen, have been at people in close proximity, attacking him, or trying to take his gun from him.

Self defence laws, as pointed out several times in this thread (had you any actual interest in this, you would already have known), are not impacted by this claim...A felon, for example, (unable to have a firearm, by law in the USA) can use a fire-arm and claim self defence: whether they are guilty of having a fire-arm as a felon has no impact on their legal use of it in self defence.

cyberdad wrote:
There's also the issue of Kyle going home and deleting his facebook page (which everyone is avoiding)


I can only assume this is a lie, since after your last claim of this I asked for evidence, and supplied details indicating it had not occurred, which you elected to ignore.

It makes for a much more pleasant experience when a participant in a discussion shows a willingness to acknowledge information supplied, rather than continuing claims in a way that shows the author has not bothered to do any research, nor read what others have already contributed to the discussion...


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cyberdad
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09 Sep 2020, 3:14 am

Why are you accusing me of being a liar?

The facebook stuff is from Kenosha news, they posted facebook information about his militia links have been deleted



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09 Sep 2020, 3:50 am

cyberdad wrote:
Why are you accusing me of being a liar?

The facebook stuff is from Kenosha news, they posted facebook information about his militia links have been deleted


Let's just say that I have yet to be supplied a link to any articles substantiating the claim you have repeatedly made:
cyberdad wrote:
There's also the issue of Kyle going home and deleting his facebook page

The best I have come across is one from several days after his arrest:
Quote:
Social media accounts associated with Rittenhouse's name are part of the investigation and contain references to support of President Donald Trump. The accounts also include pictures of a man brandishing long guns and expressing support for Blue Lives Matter, according to two officials briefed on the probe.

Source: https://abcnews.go.com/US/timeline-alleged-wisconsin-protest-shooters-path/story?id=72651587

Being dated several days follwing the arrest, it would imply that the accounts were not, in fact, deleted, which was the unsubstantiated claim in question.

The links to the militia group may not have been on HIS account, but instead been a different account, owned by another person, and so not part of his social media account, nor even his facebook page. There is also no evidence his facebook page has been deleted by him (as that would certainly have been prominently reported had it occurred).


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09 Sep 2020, 4:15 am

This opinion piece is from a military journalist who says another hole in Kyle's defence is that his affiliation to the Kenosha militia is probably illegal.
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/k ... cna1239397

Coincidentally the militia’s official Facebook account was deleted after images from 2018 of a boy in a police uniform identified as “Kyle Rittenhouse” began to circulate online.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/el ... gc#4ldqpgc

Kyle himself was filmed with the militia before he went rogue and has bragged about his connections.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/202 ... 634532002/

Sounds like an organised cover up to clean up his image pre-trial



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09 Sep 2020, 4:27 am

kokopelli wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
I made a previous mistake in this post.I misinterpreted an article.
I previously said Blake's son was paralyzed,the article was from the point of view of Blake's father and I missed that.

The fact is that Jacob Blake is paralyzed from the waist down.

It has also come out that Blake has a pending court case from a july arrest for third degree sexual assault.


Blake is the type of criminal that most of us would not want around our familes at all.


I do wonder if this may end up backfiring on the Democrats:
Kamala Harris Told Jacob Blake She Was ‘Proud’ of Him, Lawyer Says
Quote:
Democratic vice presidential nominee Kamala Harris spoke with Jacob Blake on Monday, telling the 29-year-old who was shot in the back by Kenosha, Wis. police that she was proud of him.

Blake “told Sen. Harris that he was proud of her, and the senator told Jacob that she was also proud of him and how he is working through his pain,” lawyer Ben Crump said in a statement.

Harris spoke with Blake, who is in the hospital with massive internal injuries and is paralyzed below the waist after the shooting, via phone while meeting with some of his family in the airport after she landed.

Harris also spoke about the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act and “implicit bias training,” Crump said.

Harris called the meeting “really wonderful” saying, “I mean they’re an incredible family and what they’ve endured and they do it with such dignity and grace. And you know, they’re carrying the weight of a lot of voices on their shoulders.”

Asked by reporters about a message, Harris said, “Just to, one, to express concern for their well-being and of course, for their brother and their son’s well being and to let them know that they have support.”

In a CNN interview later Monday, lawyer B’Ivory LaMarr said Harris spoke “almost as a family member” who was “essentially counseling the family on grief and how to deal with these things and providing a good outlook to our community.”

Police had been responding to a call last month that Blake, who had a warrant out for his arrest, had taken a woman’s keys and refused to return them. Blake allegedly broke into the same woman’s home in May and sexually assaulted her before stealing her truck.

When the police arrived, Blake admitted to having a knife in his possession, according to Wisconsin’s Department of Justice. Police instructed Blake to “drop the knife” as he is seen on video holding something in his hand, though it is unclear what. Division of Criminal Investigation agents later recovered a knife from the driver’s side floorboard in Blake’s van.

Video of the incident appears to show an officer shooting Blake several times in the back from close range as Blake tried to enter his van where his three children waited.

Blake pleaded not guilty to charges of third-degree sexual assault and misdemeanor charges of disorderly conduct and trespassing in a Zoom hearing from his hospital bed last Friday.


Source: https://www.nationalreview.com/news/kamala-harris-told-jacob-blake-she-was-proud-of-him-lawyer-says/

I'm not sure how many law-abiding people would be happy with a vice(?) president who declares pride in a person who has been charged with domestic abuse and sexual assault, particularly in this "believe all women" time in history.


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Brictoria
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09 Sep 2020, 4:41 am

cyberdad wrote:
This opinion piece is from a military journalist who says another hole in Kyle's defence is that his affiliation to the Kenosha militia is probably illegal.
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/k ... cna1239397

Coincidentally the militia’s official Facebook account was deleted after images from 2018 of a boy in a police uniform identified as “Kyle Rittenhouse” began to circulate online.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/el ... gc#4ldqpgc

Kyle himself was filmed with the militia before he went rogue and has bragged about his connections.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/202 ... 634532002/

Sounds like an organised cover up to clean up his image pre-trial


All very interesting, yet all fail to support your repeated claim:
cyberdad wrote:
There's also the issue of Kyle going home and deleting his facebook page


In fact, one of your "sources" appears to disprove your assertion:
Quote:
A close look at his social media accounts and background show a teenager obsessed with law enforcement who also identified as a strong supporter of President Donald Trump and “Blue Lives Matter,” a pro–law enforcement movement that evolved in response to Black Lives Matter.

This would indicate that (at least at the time the article was written, around when he was arrested) his accounts were all still active

The fact that I am still to see any evidence to support this claim you have repeatedly made (despite having requested this from you on several occasions) and have seen evidence which appears to disprove it (including some supplied by yourself) would imply it was, in fact, a lie...


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cyberdad
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09 Sep 2020, 4:48 am

Sorry the Kyle deleting his facebook page was one article written a week ago and I can't find it anymore so I'll retract that,

The Kenosha milita deleting their facebook page with Kyle is published in a few articles including the one I already provided. My guess is the Kenosha Militia want to distance themselves from Kyle who is bad publicity for them.



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09 Sep 2020, 5:27 am

cyberdad wrote:
Sorry the Kyle deleting his facebook page was one article written a week ago and I can't find it anymore so I'll retract that,

The Kenosha milita deleting their facebook page with Kyle is published in a few articles including the one I already provided. My guess is the Kenosha Militia want to distance themselves from Kyle who is bad publicity for them.


Entirely possible...It would be interesting to know how much involvement he actually had with the group, and how much the group was associating themselves with him without his knowledge after the event, which they later walked back.

As I understand it, his attendance there was not necessarily connected with any militia:
Quote:
After Kyle finished his work that day as a community lifeguard in Kenosha, he wanted to help clean up some of the damage, so he and a friend went to the local public high school to remove graffiti by rioters. Later in the day, they received information about a call for help from a local business owner, whose downtown Kenosha auto dealership was largely destroyed by mob violence. The business owner needed help to protect what he had left of his life’s work, including two nearby mechanic’s shops. Kyle and a friend armed themselves with rifles due to the deadly violence gripping Kenosha and many other American cities, and headed to the business premises


Source: https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/kyle-rittenhouses-lawyers-release-statement/

How much truth there is between this and the claims he was there due to the militia I would have no idea (did he hear from the business owner directly, via some 3rd party, or via the militia). The fact he was cleaning graffiti earlier in the day has been borne out by footage of him doing so, as have later claims in the above article of his providing first aid to the rioters.

Outside of that, it is all conjecture.

Being that "innocent until proven guilty" is still considered the way the law operates, I prefer to work under this assumption and not ascribe motives to a person where there is no factual evidence to support them. This doesn't mean I support his actions, just that I do not feel justice is being served by making false or unsubstantiated claims regarding another's actions or motives, particularly with the risk (in high profile cases like this) that large numbers of people can start to believe these unsubstantiated claims are true, and the result, should they be proven not to be, when the subject is found not guilty...


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cyberdad
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09 Sep 2020, 6:38 pm

Its interesting that in the events leading to his death, Rosenbaum was taunting the Kenosha militia. He was particularly vicious against a tall armed man in military gear. I didn't actually see Rittenhouse in the video.

What transpired shortly after is Rosenbaum was dead and Kyle ran away on his own.

There is missing time here. If Rittenhouse acted on his own to intervene against Rosenbaum then logic dictates the Kenosha militia clearly didn't have Kyle's back which means either they didn't consider him one of their own despite him hanging around them and claiming to be protecting people and property.Its also possible he was acting rogue and they were keeping their distance from him,



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09 Sep 2020, 8:04 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Its interesting that in the events leading to his death, Rosenbaum was taunting the Kenosha militia. He was particularly vicious against a tall armed man in military gear. I didn't actually see Rittenhouse in the video.

What transpired shortly after is Rosenbaum was dead and Kyle ran away on his own.

There is missing time here. If Rittenhouse acted on his own to intervene against Rosenbaum then logic dictates the Kenosha militia clearly didn't have Kyle's back which means either they didn't consider him one of their own despite him hanging around them and claiming to be protecting people and property.Its also possible he was acting rogue and they were keeping their distance from him,


We could always go to the details from a witness included in the charging document (which have been linked in this thread several times, with this timeframe having been outlined as a result of your making similar unfounded assertions a week ago):
Quote:
McGinnis stated that before the defendant reached the parking lot and ran across it, the defendant had moved from the middle of Sheridan Road to the sidewalk and that is when McGinnis saw a male (Rosenbaum) initially try to engage the defendant. McGinnis stated that as the defendant was walking Rosenbaum was trying to get closer to the defendant. When Rosenbaum advanced, the defendant dide a "juke" move and started running. McGinnis stated that there were other people that were moving very quickly. McGinnis stated that they were moving towards the defendant. McGinnis said that according to what he saw the defendant was trying to evade these individuals.

Source: https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/journaltimes.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/4/6f/46ff33b7-0bd7-55e6-8f2f-9ded0582862f/5f4933274cde9.pdf.pdf
Already described in thread: https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=389886&p=8601486#p8601486 with a post by yourself made 12 minutes later indicating an extreme unliklihood that you were unaware of this, particularly given you replied to a post that was in responce to this post a little later still.

Or, we can go to the defence's public statement:
Quote:
After the crowd passed the premises and Kyle believed the threat of further destruction had passed, he became increasingly concerned with the injured protestors and bystanders congregating at a nearby gas station with no immediate access to medical assistance or help from law enforcement. Kyle headed in that direction with a first aid kit. He sought out injured persons, rendered aid, and tried to guide people to others who could assist to the extent he could do so amid the chaos. By the final time Kyle returned to the gas station and confirmed there were no more injured individuals who needed assistance, police had advanced their formation and blocked what would have been his path back to the mechanic’s shop. Kyle then complied with the police instructions not to go back there. Kyle returned to the gas station until he learned of a need to help protect the second mechanic’s shop further down the street where property destruction was imminent with no police were nearby.

As Kyle proceeded towards the second mechanic’s shop, he was accosted by multiple rioters who recognized that he had been attempting to protect a business the mob wanted to destroy. This outraged the rioters and created a mob now determined to hurt Kyle. They began chasing him down. Kyle attempted to get away, but he could not do so quickly enough. Upon the sound of a gunshot behind him, Kyle turned and was immediately faced with an attacker lunging towards him and reaching for his rifle. He reacted instantaneously and justifiably with his weapon to protect himself, firing and striking the attacker.

Source: https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/kyle-rittenhouses-lawyers-release-statement/

As is obvious, neither the witness statement (which the prosecution relied on), nor the defence's statement show any indication of Kyle approaching Mr Rosenbaum, nor an inclination to do so - in fact that both show Kyle wanting nothing to do with him, and trying to keep his distance from him.

Given this information has been available in the thread for some time, the repeated actions of ignoring these details, or making unsubstantiated claims of actions in direct opposition to known facts does lead to the question of whether this comes from an intention to deliberately misrepresent factual information, or a simple case of cognitive disonance, where the facts don't meet your needs ("the right are evil, the left are angels"), but you cannot understand how what you want to have happened is not borne out by evidence available.

So, along with the "Kyle rushed home to delete his facebook page" unsubstantiated claim, where evidence available points to the page still having been live after he was arrested, can we please add the "Rittenhouse acted on his own to intervene against Rosenbaum" and "Its also possible he was acting rogue" to the list of misrepresentations until you can supply actual evidence? Of course, if you can suply evidence to support one of these claims, then they would become worth reconsidering, where the currently known facts can be compared to any newly uncovered ones in order to see how they may be connected, and what impact they have on the events which occurred.

It may also be worthwhile looking at available information in this thread (how many times have I asked that you do this now?), as with 2 "misrepresentations" thus far in a single thread when data was available in the thread to refute them already, any more would certainly lead an objective person to question the veracity of anything else you have posted, whether evidence based or not.


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cyberdad
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09 Sep 2020, 11:09 pm

Brictoria wrote:
As is obvious, neither the witness statement (which the prosecution relied on), nor the defence's statement show any indication of Kyle approaching Mr Rosenbaum, nor an inclination to do so - in fact that both show Kyle wanting nothing to do with him, and trying to keep his distance from him.


You are missing the point of my question that I am posing. If Rittenhouse was "chums" with the milita whom Rosenbaum was taunting minutes earlier why would they leave Rittenhouse to fend for himself against somebody who already made himself known to them as an adversary?