Question if you can be Autistic and still have social skills

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FranzOren
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04 Sep 2020, 1:03 am

But if you had only symptoms of restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior that caused you great distress from early childhood, can you technically be considered to have Pervasive Developmental Disorder?


Usually ASD includes social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, but a very mild form of ASD can just include symptoms of restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior that has caused distress from early childhood.


It can include Broad Autism Phenotype that has caused distress in early childhood.


For example, it's like Autism but does not have the exact criteria just like in the diagnostic books.



FranzOren
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04 Sep 2020, 1:08 am

It's like a form of Autism that does not get diagnosed until you are old or it is never diagnosed at all



DeepBlueSouth
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04 Sep 2020, 1:18 am

I wasn't diagnosed with Asperger's until I was almost 30 years old, but can claim near or slightly below average social skills. Most people aren't surprised when I tell them my diagnosis, they picked up something that was "off" about me. However, I have dated a few people and can deal with common social situations without a great deal of emotional distress. I may be missing the point of the original post though, is Asperger's universally considered part of the Autism Spectrum...?


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FranzOren
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04 Sep 2020, 1:37 am

I am sorry for asking this question, it's just I thought that if you at least had symptoms of restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior that caused you great distress from early childhood, you are considered to have the mildest form of Autism.


A mild form of Autism includes social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior from early childhood.


Moderate form of Autism includes clear deficits in verbal and nonverbal social communication skills in addition to apparent social impairments from early to late childhood.


Severe Autism may include, lack of social skills, extremely impaired communication, repetitive behavior.


Profound Autism may include, intellectual disability (an IQ of 69 or below). Symptoms may include impaired social communications or interactions, bizarre behavior, and lack of social or emotional reciprocity. Sleep problems, aggressiveness, and self-injurious behavior are also possible frequent occurrences.[10] LFA is not a recognized diagnosis in the DSM-5 or ICD-10.



FranzOren
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04 Sep 2020, 3:02 am

Asperger's Syndrome is the mildest form of Autism



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04 Sep 2020, 3:52 am

Normally a lot of people on this site are against the "mild, moderate, severe" labels and won't have it that some people are more mildly or severely affected than others. Then all of a sudden it's admitted that there are functioning labels.

Fickle?


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naturalplastic
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04 Sep 2020, 4:00 am

DeepBlueSouth wrote:
I wasn't diagnosed with Asperger's until I was almost 30 years old, but can claim near or slightly below average social skills. Most people aren't surprised when I tell them my diagnosis, they picked up something that was "off" about me. However, I have dated a few people and can deal with common social situations without a great deal of emotional distress. I may be missing the point of the original post though, is Asperger's universally considered part of the Autism Spectrum...?


Of course it is.

First it was made part of the autism spectrum in the DSM in 1994. Then a few years ago the DSM just got rid of "aspergers" as a label entirely, and subsumed it under autism. But at the same time they introduced official labels for level of functioning (level one for needing least support, level three for "needing a lot of support"). So today a person like you or I who were diagnosed with "aspergers" would probably be diagnosed as having "level I (high functioning) autism with no speech delay" (ie that you learned to speak at the normal age babies learn to speak).

Not that there are not dissenters who not only want the aspergers label revived, but want to divorce it from the autism spectrum, and believe it to be a seperate thing.



Last edited by naturalplastic on 04 Sep 2020, 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

DeepBlueSouth
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04 Sep 2020, 4:58 am

naturalplastic wrote:
First it was made part of the autism spectrum in the DSM in 1994. Then a few years ago the DSM just got rid of "aspergers" as a label entirely, and subsumed it under autism. But at the same time they introduced official labels for level of functioning (level one for needing least support, level three for "needing a lot of support"). So today a person like you or I who were diagnosed with "aspergers" would probably be diagnosed as having "high functioning autism with no speech delay" (ie that you learned to speak at the normal age babies learn to speak).

Not that there are not dissenters who not only want the aspergers label revived, but want to divorce it from the autism spectrum, and believe it to be a seperate thing.


Thanks for the clarification. This is what I was given to understand, but you prefaced it in a better way than I could recall.


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04 Sep 2020, 8:00 am

FranzOren wrote:
It means that if you had only symptoms of restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior that caused you great distress from early childhood, you are considered to have history of developmental delay of some sort, but it might not be ASD, because it does not really effect communication

Welll then it might not be asd. But in this what if scenario this perosn would likely be misdiagonsed anyway.I asumme y6ou are describing stimming along and stimming along doesn't nessicarly mean anything. There's plenty of people who have tics as they are often called who have nothing to do with self-stimulatory behavior. Restricted and Repetive behavior. However said person wouldn't fall under the criteria for the current asd diagnosis fi ti caused no defects in communcation. I'm not entirely sure what they'd fall under i'm not a doctor after all. but I'm sure it'd be a nightmare to diagnose said condition. it likely be other neurodevelopmental disorder but I'm not entirely sure.
FranzOren wrote:
But if you had only symptoms of restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior that caused you great distress from early childhood, can you technically be considered to have Pervasive Developmental Disorder?


Usually ASD includes social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, but a very mild form of ASD can just include symptoms of restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior that has caused distress from early childhood.


It can include Broad Autism Phenotype that has caused distress in early childhood.


For example, it's like Autism but does not have the exact criteria just like in the diagnostic books.
I think you are confusing the broader autims phenotype with something else. IIRC BAP is the concept that family members fo autistic people who aren't autistic themselves often have autistic traits and would be on the BAP. I think this traits can't cause significant probelms in their lives to the poiont where it'd get noticed. Here I'd like you read the page on PDD-nos from wikipedia
Quote:
A high-functioning group (around 25 percent) whose symptoms largely overlap with that of Asperger syndrome, while also not meeting the criteria for autistic disorder, but who differ from those with Asperger syndrome in terms of having a lag in language development and/or mild cognitive impairment (The criteria for Asperger syndrome excludes a speech delay or a cognitive delay in early life.)
Another group (around 25 percent) whose symptoms more closely resemble those of autistic disorder, but do not fully meet all its diagnostic signs and symptoms. This is because either the symptoms were recognized at a later age or because they were too young or have cognitive deficits that are too severe to properly identify all the symptoms of autism that they may have.
The biggest group (around 50 percent) consists of those who meet all the diagnostic criteria for autistic disorder but whose stereotypical and repetitive behaviors are noticeably mild. See 75% of these aren't social wise but repetitive behavior wise.
[color=#0077cc] I fall into the first group. Here's the thing. I very much doubt that people who could meet the repetitive behaviors and interests category wouldn't have some sort of social problems from meeting those. And Even if they did they would'nt have autism according to the DSM-iv as it's characterized by SOCIAL DIFFICUlTIES.


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04 Sep 2020, 8:12 am

FranzOren"[quote][quote="FranzOren wrote:
Asperger's Syndrome is the mildest form of Autism

[/quote]

A mild form of Autism includes social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior from early childhood.


Moderate form of Autism includes clear deficits in verbal and nonverbal social communication skills in addition to apparent social impairments from early to late childhood.


Severe Autism may include, lack of social skills, extremely impaired communication, repetitive behavior.


Profound Autism may include, intellectual disability (an IQ of 69 or below). Symptoms may include impaired social communications or interactions, bizarre behavior, and lack of social or emotional reciprocity. Sleep problems, aggressiveness, and self-injurious behavior are also possible frequent occurrences.[10] LFA is not a recognized diagnosis in the DSM-5 or ICD-10.[/quote]You are making very very very gross generalizations. and this post literally makes no sense. Profound autism has never been a diagnosis. as far as I am aware. Secondly there are many people who'd be diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome who'd be obviously way more severe than peopel who were diagnosed with Autistic disorder you know why? Because when you develop language doesn't say anything about your general function. See the problem is the labels themselves but the way people often are treated because of said labels. People who are declared as low function are often viewed as lost causes why people with high functioning are often though to be fit to work and live normal lives when it's just not true. And here lies the true problem with it. Which is why it's much better to categorize it based on the level of support you need than the "severity" secondly you are contridcitng yourself as a good portion of people with asperger's syndrome would fall under your moderate catagory so umm yeah.


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04 Sep 2020, 8:30 am

Now I think that I am generally "requring substantial support" despite high IQ and well-developed speech and language, maybe not only due to (something which was diagnosed as) Asperger's, but also due to other mental disorders (like OCD), getting psychotropic drugs (which can make driving a car impossible) and environmental factors (dysfunctional family, living in small locality). I am rather not as bad to be considered as "requiring very substantial support" because I can ride in public transport without any assistance (like family) and go to the doctor or buy medictaions without help of other person, but I am disabled in occupational area, have no friends, have never had a partner, girlfriend (despite craving of nature), I even have not driven a car at all despite being almost 29 years old.

I did not have problems with lying, telling lies as a child (which is not good, because lying is a sin), I rather also had no problems in pretend play or understanding intentions even as a child, young child, but I was "weird" socially, I was uninterested in making friends and being non-romantically loved (for example by parents). I did not think about looking at eyes and maybe even or faces, people when talking as a child or young adolescent (when I did not know so much about mental disorders). My mother complained that my facial expressions are "stupid" quite often. I received diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome in 2008 in specialistic center despite my good theory of mind in comparison to many other people with that diagnosis. I may be more like someone with schizoid disorder than someone with classic ASD.

Diagnosis of ASD according to DSM-V requires deficits in social skills. I suppose that there can be other sorts of autism than "conventional", "bookish" like Kanner's syndrome...

In draft(?) versions of ICD-11 classification there was a proposition of developmental disorder named "social reciprocity disorder". Maybe it was mostly about deficit of interest in socialization, not about poor social skills (at least those clearly associated with theory of mind, like lying, understanding intentions, pretend play)? For me schizoid or schizotypal, schizophrenic disorders with disorders in social motivation or reciprocity since childhood might be considered sorts of autism if they're persistent.



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04 Sep 2020, 10:20 am

Pieplup wrote:
FranzOren"[quote][quote="FranzOren wrote:
Asperger's Syndrome is the mildest form of Autism

A mild form of Autism includes social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior from early childhood.


Moderate form of Autism includes clear deficits in verbal and nonverbal social communication skills in addition to apparent social impairments from early to late childhood.


Severe Autism may include, lack of social skills, extremely impaired communication, repetitive behavior.


Profound Autism may include, intellectual disability (an IQ of 69 or below). Symptoms may include impaired social communications or interactions, bizarre behavior, and lack of social or emotional reciprocity. Sleep problems, aggressiveness, and self-injurious behavior are also possible frequent occurrences.[10] LFA is not a recognized diagnosis in the DSM-5 or ICD-10.
You are making very very very gross generalizations. and this post literally makes no sense. Profound autism has never been a diagnosis. as far as I am aware. Secondly there are many people who'd be diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome who'd be obviously way more severe than peopel who were diagnosed with Autistic disorder you know why? Because when you develop language doesn't say anything about your general function. See the problem is the labels themselves but the way people often are treated because of said labels. People who are declared as low function are often viewed as lost causes why people with high functioning are often though to be fit to work and live normal lives when it's just not true. And here lies the true problem with it. Which is why it's much better to categorize it based on the level of support you need than the "severity" secondly you are contridcitng yourself as a good portion of people with asperger's syndrome would fall under your moderate catagory so umm yeah.






I know, but it kind of is.

The DSM-5 considers severe to profound forms of developmental disorders as having ASD level 3.



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04 Sep 2020, 10:28 am

ASD level of supports


ASD level one, If you at least had symptoms of restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior that caused you great distress from early childhood, you are considered to have the mildest form of Autism.


ASD level one includes social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior from early childhood.

ASD level two includes clear deficits in verbal and nonverbal social communication skills in addition to apparent social impairments from early to late childhood.


ASD level three may include, lack of social skills, extremely impaired communication, repetitive behavior.


ASD level three may include, intellectual disability (an IQ of 69 or below). Symptoms may include impaired social communications or interactions, bizarre behavior, and lack of social or emotional reciprocity. Sleep problems, aggressiveness, and self-injurious behavior are also possible frequent occurrences.[10] LFA is not a recognized diagnosis in the DSM-5 or ICD-10.



FranzOren
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04 Sep 2020, 12:23 pm

Pieplup wrote:
FranzOren wrote:
It means that if you had only symptoms of restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior that caused you great distress from early childhood, you are considered to have history of developmental delay of some sort, but it might not be ASD, because it does not really effect communication

Welll then it might not be asd. But in this what if scenario this perosn would likely be misdiagonsed anyway.I asumme y6ou are describing stimming along and stimming along doesn't nessicarly mean anything. There's plenty of people who have tics as they are often called who have nothing to do with self-stimulatory behavior. Restricted and Repetive behavior. However said person wouldn't fall under the criteria for the current asd diagnosis fi ti caused no defects in communcation. I'm not entirely sure what they'd fall under i'm not a doctor after all. but I'm sure it'd be a nightmare to diagnose said condition. it likely be other neurodevelopmental disorder but I'm not entirely sure.
FranzOren wrote:
But if you had only symptoms of restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior that caused you great distress from early childhood, can you technically be considered to have Pervasive Developmental Disorder?


Usually ASD includes social communication impairments and restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, but a very mild form of ASD can just include symptoms of restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior that has caused distress from early childhood.


It can include Broad Autism Phenotype that has caused distress in early childhood.


For example, it's like Autism but does not have the exact criteria just like in the diagnostic books.
I think you are confusing the broader autims phenotype with something else. IIRC BAP is the concept that family members fo autistic people who aren't autistic themselves often have autistic traits and would be on the BAP. I think this traits can't cause significant probelms in their lives to the poiont where it'd get noticed. Here I'd like you read the page on PDD-nos from wikipedia
Quote:
A high-functioning group (around 25 percent) whose symptoms largely overlap with that of Asperger syndrome, while also not meeting the criteria for autistic disorder, but who differ from those with Asperger syndrome in terms of having a lag in language development and/or mild cognitive impairment (The criteria for Asperger syndrome excludes a speech delay or a cognitive delay in early life.)
Another group (around 25 percent) whose symptoms more closely resemble those of autistic disorder, but do not fully meet all its diagnostic signs and symptoms. This is because either the symptoms were recognized at a later age or because they were too young or have cognitive deficits that are too severe to properly identify all the symptoms of autism that they may have.
The biggest group (around 50 percent) consists of those who meet all the diagnostic criteria for autistic disorder but whose stereotypical and repetitive behaviors are noticeably mild. See 75% of these aren't social wise but repetitive behavior wise.
[color=#0077cc] I fall into the first group. Here's the thing. I very much doubt that people who could meet the repetitive behaviors and interests category wouldn't have some sort of social problems from meeting those. And Even if they did they would'nt have autism according to the DSM-iv as it's characterized by SOCIAL DIFFICUlTIES.




Yes, but having history of symptoms of restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior that caused you distress in early childhood, is a core symptom of Autism.


I am sorry if I got confused.



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04 Sep 2020, 12:26 pm

Also having history symptoms of restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior can be a much broader term for social defects, but it does not really effect how you understand and read emotions, facial cues and body languages



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04 Sep 2020, 1:58 pm

I think it possible to be on the spectrum and have social skills, but the way those skills are obtained may be different to the way the typically developed population acquires those skills.

A metaphor from my background as an electrician.

There are electricians who can install cable or trunking and its neatness makes it a work of art.
For some of those electricians that only came about after long and difficult college apprenticeship, patient explanations and being shown time and again by tutors or experienced sparks, while others seem to have the knack from the outset and the work of art cabling seems to happen without any obvious effort.

Likewise, there are electricians at inspector level who seem to understand the tests and the reasons for them, and how to use the instruments from the outset, the much feared 2391 course looked no more than knowledge being shaken down and a few uncertainties corrected. Others have to sweat and study and cram to get the 2391, perhaps having to take advantage of the scheme in my professional body where failing the course results in them inviting you back for another with just the cost of resitting the exam, because they sea it as their job to ensure you can reach the highest you can.

Social skills should be no different. Some people just have that natural knack, just like the spark under whose hands the cables go into place as if by magic or tease out any hidden defect and ensure an installation is safe. Others, and I am in that latter category, had to learn them, keep a collection of useful standard opening phrases, strategies to keep things like conversation moving, eventually learning to keep away from too involved or risky a social situation if tired or upset.

I suspect that while one can be both on the spectrum and skilled socially, those skills are ones which are hard learned rather than coming naturally