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Fnord
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25 Sep 2020, 8:33 am

magz wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Family Business: The Mom-and-Pop stores and the family farms the simplest forms of Socialist structures, wherein the workers own the means of production.

Community Cooperative: When the business owners agree to pool their financial and physical resources to benefit everyone involved, it creates a higher form of Socialism -- remember that the next time you buy your farm-fresh, non-GMO, organic eggs laid by free-range chickens from your local Farmers' Co-Op store.

Capitalism: Where the means of production are owned by outside investors who hire people to produce the goods, people to manage the workers, and more people to manage the business. The investors (like me) may never see the inside of the production facility or even know where it is; but those dividend checks sure do add up!

Communism: The means of production are owned by the State, which reaps all the profits, gives the major share of those profits to the State Leaders, and then gives back a much smaller share to each of the workers.

The political aspect of Communism is Feudalism, with the wealthy Nobles at the top, the less-wealthy
Ministers below the Nobles, The lesser-wealthy Gentry below the Ministers, and the serfs/slaves doing all the work.

I hate Communism.

In these definitions, you equate capitalism to stock economy.
You claim small businesses to be socialist.
Interesting.

Capitalism (in it's most popular current form) is based on investment and share-holding (stocks) by outside investors.

A small business is Socialist only when the workers own the business (Mom-and-Pop stores and family-run farms, for example). If my friends and I pool our resources to put up a convenience store, and then hire outsiders to work there while we reap the profits (and pay the workers), then it is a Capitalist business.

I'm trying to keep things simple and logical so that we don't get bogged down in politics and personal agendas.

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magz
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25 Sep 2020, 9:16 am

In a way, it corresponds to XFG's definition of socialism as when workers get all the value of their work.
The closest to it are indeed family businesses and co-ops.

Capitalism as making companies and hiring people doesn't fundamentally need share holding.
Maybe we need some additional split of terms - I find job market and stock exchange two separate phenomenons.

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TheRobotLives
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25 Sep 2020, 11:30 am

The_Walrus wrote:

Having said that - I know how much restaurant workers get paid. If an EMT is really getting paid less then something is wrong.

I was curious.

In my area, average pay for EMT is US $28,675/year.

In my area, average pay for paramedic is $34,532/year.

Those are poverty wages.

For presumably:
- Resuscitation efforts (mouth-to-mouth, heart shock machine, air bags)
-Shots (narcan, epinephrine)
-Minimal treatment (bandages)
-Physically lifting, carrying injured
-Dealing with distressed people
-Exposure to sickness, COVID19

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Fnord
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25 Sep 2020, 11:57 am

TheRobotLives wrote:

In my area, average pay for EMT is US $28,675/year.

In my area, average pay for paramedic is $34,532/year.

Those are poverty wages.

The federal poverty level for a household of four in 2020 America is an annual income of $26,200 (or $12.60 per hour) or less.

The average hourly pay (based on the figures you gave) for an EMT is $13.78, and the average hourly pay for a paramedic is $16.86 -- neither of these wages is at or below the poverty level.

If a paramedic or EMT wants to make more money, then I suggest that they either earn a higher medical degree or move to California, where the minimum wage is $15.00 per hour.

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Steve1963
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25 Sep 2020, 12:09 pm

Fnord wrote:

If a paramedic or EMT wants to make more money, then I suggest that they either earn a higher medical degree or move to California, where the minimum wage is $15.00 per hour.

Are you really suggesting that only California should have EMT's?

Fnord
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25 Sep 2020, 12:12 pm

Steve1963 wrote:

Fnord wrote:

If a paramedic or EMT wants to make more money, then I suggest that they either earn a higher medical degree or move to California, where the minimum wage is $15.00 per hour.

Are you really suggesting that only California should have EMT's?

Out of which bodily orifice did you pull that one?

I neither expressed nor implied any such thing.

:roll:

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Steve1963
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25 Sep 2020, 12:15 pm

Fnord wrote:

Steve1963 wrote:

Fnord wrote:

If a paramedic or EMT wants to make more money, then I suggest that they either earn a higher medical degree or move to California, where the minimum wage is $15.00 per hour.

Are you really suggesting that only California should have EMT's?

Out of which bodily orifice did you pull that one?

I never expressed nor implied any such thing.

:roll:

EMT wants (needs) more money -- earn a higher medical degree (and no longer be an EMT).
EMT wants (needs) more money -- move to California.
Nowhere in your example does an EMT remain an EMT unless they move to California.
No orifices required.

Fnord
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25 Sep 2020, 12:20 pm

Steve1963 wrote:

EMT wants (needs) more money -- earn a higher medical degree (and no longer be an EMT). EMT wants (needs) more money -- move to California...

That does not mean that only California would have EMTs.

It means that EMTs in other states would still earn less money than they would in California.

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Steve1963
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25 Sep 2020, 12:22 pm

We're just going in circles here. I took what you wrote too literally, as I don't know an EMT who wouldn't want to make more money.

Fnord
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25 Sep 2020, 12:26 pm

Steve1963 wrote:

We're just going in circles here. I took what you wrote too literally, as I don't know an EMT who wouldn't want to make more money.

You mis-interpreted what I posted.

Now drop it.

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Antrax
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25 Sep 2020, 1:34 pm

Fnord wrote:

magz wrote:

Fnord wrote:

In these definitions, you equate capitalism to stock economy.
You claim small businesses to be socialist.
Interesting.

I've yet to see a family owned restaurant that would hire additional help for a cut of the profits. In almost all cases if they needed an additional cook, waiter etc. they'd hire them for a wage.

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Fnord
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25 Sep 2020, 1:36 pm

Antrax wrote:

Fnord wrote:

I've yet to see a family-owned restaurant that would hire additional help for a cut of the profits. In almost all cases if they needed an additional cook, waiter etc. they'd hire them for a wage.

... and a minimum wage, at that...

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Antrax
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25 Sep 2020, 2:21 pm

Fnord wrote:

Antrax wrote:

Fnord wrote:

I've yet to see a family-owned restaurant that would hire additional help for a cut of the profits. In almost all cases if they needed an additional cook, waiter etc. they'd hire them for a wage.

... and a minimum wage, at that...

Just for clarification purposes a scenario.

Say I buy a building because I have the resources to buy a building. Say in this building I start producing and selling widgets.

Now after some success I want to expand my business. To make more widgets I hire other people to make widgets with me. For simplicity lets say I hire 9 other people so there are 10 people in this company.

Am I required to turn over 90% of the building ownership to them or do I still own 100% of the building? Do I pay them wages and a 10% share of the profits or do I just pay them 10% of the profits? If I do pay them wages, how do wages for each person in the company get determined?

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Fnord
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25 Sep 2020, 2:26 pm

Antrax wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Antrax wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Capitalism (in it's most popular current form) is based on investment and share-holding (stocks) by outside investors. A small business is Socialist only when the workers own the business (Mom-and-Pop stores and family-run farms, for example). If my friends and I pool our resources to put up a convenience store, and then hire outsiders to work there while we reap the profits (and pay the workers), then it is a Capitalist business.

I've yet to see a family-owned restaurant that would hire additional help for a cut of the profits. In almost all cases if they needed an additional cook, waiter etc. they'd hire them for a wage.

... and a minimum wage, at that...

Just for clarification purposes a scenario. Say I buy a building because I have the resources to buy a building. Say in this building I start producing and selling widgets. Now after some success I want to expand my business. To make more widgets I hire other people to make widgets with me. For simplicity lets say I hire 9 other people so there are 10 people in this company. Am I required to turn over 90% of the building ownership to them or do I still own 100% of the building? Do I pay them wages and a 10% share of the profits or do I just pay them 10% of the profits? If I do pay them wages, how do wages for each person in the company get determined?

Ahh ... I see ...

What you "should" do is honor whatever legal agreements you make with your employees at the time you hire them.

I know that seems like a cop-out to your question, but it really is what any employer should do.

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Antrax
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25 Sep 2020, 2:35 pm

Fnord wrote:

Antrax wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Antrax wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Capitalism (in it's most popular current form) is based on investment and share-holding (stocks) by outside investors. A small business is Socialist only when the workers own the business (Mom-and-Pop stores and family-run farms, for example). If my friends and I pool our resources to put up a convenience store, and then hire outsiders to work there while we reap the profits (and pay the workers), then it is a Capitalist business.

I've yet to see a family-owned restaurant that would hire additional help for a cut of the profits. In almost all cases if they needed an additional cook, waiter etc. they'd hire them for a wage.

... and a minimum wage, at that...

Just for clarification purposes a scenario. Say I buy a building because I have the resources to buy a building. Say in this building I start producing and selling widgets. Now after some success I want to expand my business. To make more widgets I hire other people to make widgets with me. For simplicity lets say I hire 9 other people so there are 10 people in this company. Am I required to turn over 90% of the building ownership to them or do I still own 100% of the building? Do I pay them wages and a 10% share of the profits or do I just pay them 10% of the profits? If I do pay them wages, how do wages for each person in the company get determined?

No argument from me there. But I can form a legal agreement in which I pay them a wage for their services while retaining 100% ownership of the company.

I can also find a friend and legally agree to give him 50% of my company if he gives me the money to buy a second building and hire 10 more workers.

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Fnord
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25 Sep 2020, 2:38 pm

Antrax wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Antrax wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Antrax wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Capitalism (in it's most popular current form) is based on investment and share-holding (stocks) by outside investors. A small business is Socialist only when the workers own the business (Mom-and-Pop stores and family-run farms, for example). If my friends and I pool our resources to put up a convenience store, and then hire outsiders to work there while we reap the profits (and pay the workers), then it is a Capitalist business.

I've yet to see a family-owned restaurant that would hire additional help for a cut of the profits. In almost all cases if they needed an additional cook, waiter etc. they'd hire them for a wage.

... and a minimum wage, at that...

Just for clarification purposes a scenario. Say I buy a building because I have the resources to buy a building. Say in this building I start producing and selling widgets. Now after some success I want to expand my business. To make more widgets I hire other people to make widgets with me. For simplicity lets say I hire 9 other people so there are 10 people in this company. Am I required to turn over 90% of the building ownership to them or do I still own 100% of the building? Do I pay them wages and a 10% share of the profits or do I just pay them 10% of the profits? If I do pay them wages, how do wages for each person in the company get determined?

Ahh ... I see ... What you "should" do is honor whatever legal agreements you make with your employees at the time you hire them. I know that seems like a cop-out to your question, but it really is what any employer should do.

No argument from me there. But I can form a legal agreement in which I pay them a wage for their services while retaining 100% ownership of the company. I can also find a friend and legally agree to give him 50% of my company if he gives me the money to buy a second building and hire 10 more workers.

Either of these would be perfectly reasonable choices to make.

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