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Does the US need a new constitution?
Constitution? We don't need no stinkin' constitution! 5%  5%  [ 1 ]
Yes. Open the Bible, then Ctrl C + Ctrl V 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Yes. Open the Necronomicon, then Ctrl C + Ctrl V 18%  18%  [ 4 ]
No. The 2020 constitution is fine 5%  5%  [ 1 ]
No. The 1787 constitution is fine 14%  14%  [ 3 ]
No. But it needs some revisions (please elaborate) 5%  5%  [ 1 ]
Yes. Burn it. Burn it all and start from scratch 18%  18%  [ 4 ]
Yes. But a lot can be reused (please elaborate) 18%  18%  [ 4 ]
Yes. And *I* will write it! (please elaborate) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Other (please elaborate) 18%  18%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 22

GGPViper
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14 Oct 2020, 6:46 am

What the title says…

… to keep the apocalyptic flames burning ('cos if I don't keep at it, who will?), why not entertain the notion that the coming US election may trigger some sort of constitutional crisis which raises doubt about the fundamental legal framework of the United States of America?

Should such a situation occur, what should be the proper course of action with respect to the US constitution?

Please discuss.


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The_Walrus
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14 Oct 2020, 8:07 am

I’ve learned a lot about the constitution lately. I’m now a big fan of the Ninth Amendment and the 14th Amendment, but there is a lot of good stuff in most of the others, as well as a few specific things I would look to tighten up.

I’d also look to radically restructure all three branches of government, executive, legislative, and judicial, with an aim of establishing a proportionally representative parliamentary democracy with an independent judiciary.

Might go into detail on the changes I’d like to see later.



Fnord
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14 Oct 2020, 8:13 am

We do not need a new Constitution.
We do not need Donald J. Trump.
What we need are leaders who know, understand, respect, and follow the Constitution we already have.
We do not need Donald J. Trump.
We do not need leaders whose only Constitutions are their own egos.
We do not need Donald J. Trump.


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Brictoria
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14 Oct 2020, 8:38 am

Fnord wrote:
We do not need a new Constitution.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
What we need are leaders who know, understand, respect, and follow the Constitution we already have.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
We do not need leaders whose only Constitutions are their own egos.
We do need Donald J. Trump.


Did you mean "know, understand, respect, and follow the constitution" in a textual "what is written, how it is written, using definitions in use when written" form, or in a "what we think was meant, based on what we believe the intentions may have been, or on modern interpretation of words" form?


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Fnord
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14 Oct 2020, 8:45 am

Brictoria wrote:
Fnord wrote:
We do not need a new Constitution.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
What we need are leaders who know, understand, respect, and follow the Constitution we already have.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
We do not need leaders whose only Constitutions are their own egos.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
Did you mean "know, understand, respect, and follow the constitution" in a textual "what is written, how it is written, using definitions in use when written" form ... ?
This.  We cannot know the intent of the writers, we can only infer what they intended from the contents and context of the written Constitution; even then, our inferences and assumptions are likely to be wrong.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
For instance, the First Amendment begins with the words "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", which some modern-day Christians interpret to literally mean "The United States of America was founded and determined to be a Christian nation".  This inference could not possibly be more wrong.


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Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


aghogday
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14 Oct 2020, 9:03 am

Rules That Don't Bend Break;
It's Just A Fact; Reality Is Change.
Heroes And Villains Always Break
Rules; All That Really Set Them Apart
Is Empathy For Others; Some Break Rules
For The Greater Good; Others Are Just Plain

Vanilla

Orange Trump;
And It's True,
Villains Wear
Golden Robes
In Pope Form And Supreme
Court Justice Robes, Yes too,
Where Ironically, They Don't Break the Rules;
Another 'Animal' All Together, A Fundamentalist

indeed

Just Stuck
in Concrete or Mud.

Let's Face Facts; Every Day, Every
Now Is A New Testament to Change...
Constitutions Are Forms Blowing in This Wind....

Bibles too
And the Other
Such as So-called
Sacred and Holy
Texts in the
Breeze

Bend

or

Break
As Simple As
Reality of Change.

Meh; i Score 100 Percent on Openness
And Extroversion on the Big 5 Personality
Test; i am A Sail; True, Sails Need Anchors too;
My Wife is More Set in Stone; Freedoms and Rules Must

Hold Hands to

Survive...

Keeping
'the Boat'
Afloat in
Rough Seas
And Winds
Returning
to Safe Harbors...

Again,
Change....

Always A Practice
of Reason And Art Together in Play...


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Jiheisho
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14 Oct 2020, 9:59 am

It needs to be updated, as the Constitution recognizes. We should get rid of the electoral college. We should prevent voting biases such as gerrymandering. We should evaluate the duties of the senate since they are not a representative body nor a deliberative one. A question should be answered if political parties should be allowed to function within government. We need clarification on the forth branch of government: administration/civil service. We should add environmental rights into the Constitution. There needs to be clarification on whether gun rights are collective as written, or whether that has changed. We need to clarify human rights and what/who that covers.



TheRobotLives
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14 Oct 2020, 12:31 pm

Somehow we continually lose freedom.

SCOTUS does not protect us from authoritarians.

Our glutinous federal government keeps growing and eating more and more of our economy.

With the ACA decision, SCOTUS has determined that inactivity is commerce, and can be taxed and regulated.

That seems to render the premise of a constitutionally limited government meaningless, since now the government can argue not doing whatever they demand is inactivity of commerce and can be regulated and taxed.

IRS/regulators/prosecutors probably chuckle when people talk about their "constitutional rights", knowing how easy it's so walk all over them.

You have wonderful *Constitutional rights* ...
Image


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Udinaas
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14 Oct 2020, 12:48 pm

I'd also like to keep most of the amendments but have a proportional parliamentary system. Since America is so large and diverse it would probably be best to have some kind of hybrid system, with half the seats being proportionally chosen by the whole country and half being either proportionally chosen by voters in individual states or from single member districts created by a nonpartisan commission.



Mr Reynholm
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14 Oct 2020, 1:18 pm

Fnord wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Fnord wrote:
We do not need a new Constitution.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
What we need are leaders who know, understand, respect, and follow the Constitution we already have.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
We do not need leaders whose only Constitutions are their own egos.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
Did you mean "know, understand, respect, and follow the constitution" in a textual "what is written, how it is written, using definitions in use when written" form ... ?
This.  We cannot know the intent of the writers, we can only infer what they intended from the contents and context of the written Constitution; even then, our inferences and assumptions are likely to be wrong.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
For instance, the First Amendment begins with the words "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", which some modern-day Christians interpret to literally mean "The United States of America was founded and determined to be a Christian nation".  This inference could not possibly be more wrong.

Who are these Christians who interpret the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses as an establishment of a Christian nation? Provide a definitive quote maybe? Not just some guy's opinion.



Fnord
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14 Oct 2020, 1:39 pm

Mr Reynholm wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Fnord wrote:
We do not need a new Constitution.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
What we need are leaders who know, understand, respect, and follow the Constitution we already have.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
We do not need leaders whose only Constitutions are their own egos.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
Did you mean "know, understand, respect, and follow the constitution" in a textual "what is written, how it is written, using definitions in use when written" form ... ?
This.  We cannot know the intent of the writers, we can only infer what they intended from the contents and context of the written Constitution; even then, our inferences and assumptions are likely to be wrong.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
For instance, the First Amendment begins with the words "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", which some modern-day Christians interpret to literally mean "The United States of America was founded and determined to be a Christian nation".  This inference could not possibly be more wrong.
Who are these Christians who interpret the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses as an establishment of a Christian nation? Provide a definitive quote maybe? Not just some guy's opinion.
There are too many to enumerate or name.  Suffice it to say that I encounter such nonsense at every Christian church I've attended or visited, and if you google "Christian Nation", you will get enough responses to keep you busy for days.

Here is one to start you off:
http://www.internationalcopsforchrist.c ... an-nation/


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Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


Mr Reynholm
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15 Oct 2020, 8:18 am

Fnord wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
Fnord wrote:
We do not need a new Constitution.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
What we need are leaders who know, understand, respect, and follow the Constitution we already have.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
We do not need leaders whose only Constitutions are their own egos.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
Did you mean "know, understand, respect, and follow the constitution" in a textual "what is written, how it is written, using definitions in use when written" form ... ?
This.  We cannot know the intent of the writers, we can only infer what they intended from the contents and context of the written Constitution; even then, our inferences and assumptions are likely to be wrong.
We do need Donald J. Trump.
For instance, the First Amendment begins with the words "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", which some modern-day Christians interpret to literally mean "The United States of America was founded and determined to be a Christian nation".  This inference could not possibly be more wrong.
Who are these Christians who interpret the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses as an establishment of a Christian nation? Provide a definitive quote maybe? Not just some guy's opinion.
There are too many to enumerate or name.  Suffice it to say that I encounter such nonsense at every Christian church I've attended or visited, and if you google "Christian Nation", you will get enough responses to keep you busy for days.

Here is one to start you off:
http://www.internationalcopsforchrist.c ... an-nation/


An article is just the author's own view/opinion. I have know plenty of Christians over the years and have yet to hear one say that the First Amendment establishes a Christian nation. I have heard Christians say it is what it is: Not allowing the government to establish a state religion.



Meistersinger
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15 Oct 2020, 11:06 am

What needs to happen is the US needs to revert back to a British Colony, sine we, the so-called people are now too damn f!cking stupid to rule ourselves!



aghogday
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15 Oct 2020, 1:19 pm

^^^

Yeah; Really, Half The Folks
In Walmart Who Name Themselves
'Real Christians' Are too Dam Weak to
Lift A Small Cotton Mask of a Cross to
Save The Life of Their Neighbors; Even their
Closest Loved ones too; And on 'Top' of THAT Their
Dear Leader'S ADministration is Driving For So-called
'Herd Immunity',
Now Worshipping
Covid-19, Now to
the Point of Letting
IT Go Free to Kill 2 MiLLioN
or so Innocent Lives; if Folks Cannot
See the Gas Chamber Analogies THere

Is no God Win

In This Here

At Least Not
A God Called
Love that Has
Anything to Do
With Love's Virtue

iN Truth oF LiGHT

And By God, FaCTS too;

Yes, i'm Really Disgusted
NoW As Ignorance Kills and
FActs Save Lives; Butt on the
Other Hands as i've often Repeated
A True Story Here; Born on 6.6.60, Since
The Doctor Went on Vacation Then, Inducing
Labor 2 Weeks Early for the Regularly Scheduled
Delivery on the Summer Solstice; And Since the Delivery
of the Fictional Movie 'the Omen', i've Been Told
i am Closely Related to 'Their Made-Up Devil'
Just Because of the Three 6's on my Driver's
License that really Spiral Like the Milky
Way Three Times Like a Trinity
of the Golden PHI 1.618 Mean
Ratio
Spiral on
My Driver's
License; Just like
the Logo of the College
i Went to too of a Nautilus Shell
Imprinted Across All Three College
Degrees Above my Desk in the Form of
What Looks Like From a Distance, Three 6's too...

It wouldn't Matter, if i'm Not Really 'Lucifred';
i Wouldn't Be Able to Bring them 'Light' Now;
HeHE AT least as the Evidence SHows So Far;
Oh My GOD oF Love; Just Can't Get it Down Now to Fit in
'THeir TRump TWitter Size Advanced CuLTuRaLLY InFLUenced

Modern Minds'...

STill, the SHow (Story) GoeS on;
Not That IT 'must'; Just beCause

iT iS so much Fun!

Anyway, Additional Point of Fact, The High School Nearest
to that Walmart, Currently Has the Highest Covid-19 Infection
Rate Among Students of Any High School in Our State; Science
Doesn't Lie but yes, 'Politics in Religion', Definitely, Really Does.


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Antrax
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16 Oct 2020, 1:40 am

Ok I voted for the Necromonicon as a joke. Glad to see it's winning the poll :D .

Seriously though the U.S. Constitution is one of the great triumphs of rule of law society. It set up a system that has survived many challenges over 200 years and has evolved to be better within the confines of the original system.

The original document has some warts. The amendments have largely corrected these. There are some things that are currently part of the constitution that maybe should be changed, but they can and should be changed by the amendment process. Literally everything in the constitution can be changed WITH enough support.

People who say it's too hard to pass amendments want to enforce a slight majority position on all of society. This very deliberately should not happen.


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Mikah
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17 Oct 2020, 7:30 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
Somehow we continually lose freedom.

SCOTUS does not protect us from authoritarians.

Our glutinous federal government keeps growing and eating more and more of our economy.

With the ACA decision, SCOTUS has determined that inactivity is commerce, and can be taxed and regulated.

That seems to render the premise of a constitutionally limited government meaningless, since now the government can argue not doing whatever they demand is inactivity of commerce and can be regulated and taxed.

IRS/regulators/prosecutors probably chuckle when people talk about their "constitutional rights", knowing how easy it's so walk all over them.

You have wonderful *Constitutional rights* ...
Image


The only sensible post in this thread. The constitution does nothing and is nothing in the long run. Its only purpose is as a strategic high wall, a psychological block to placate the stupid, shut down discussions of right and wrong or twist minds into believing that good is bad and up is down. Whatever you think it protects, I guarantee it can be reinterpreted or rewritten according to the fashions and beliefs of the powers of the day.

Case in point: Roe vs. Wade. The moral (is it murder?) question of life and death was decided and hinged upon the constitutional "right to privacy".


Antrax wrote:
Seriously though the U.S. Constitution is one of the great triumphs of rule of law society. It set up a system that has survived many challenges over 200 years and has evolved to be better within the confines of the original system.


200 or so years is about the average life span of any great nation or empire. You're a bit early to be making that kind of claim methinks :wink: especially with America noticeably fraying at the edges.


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