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The_Walrus
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30 Oct 2020, 12:50 pm

I have lots of friends who are Polish, either expatriates or the children of expatriates. My former flatmate spent two months trapped with her parents at the start of the pandemic. Everyone I know is younger than forty, and they’re all just so repulsed by the stuff that’s going on. One of them is politically a very strong libertarian but feels like he has to vote for the Left party because the right-wing parties have such terrible social stances.

It’s so sad what is happening to great countries like Poland and Hungary, getting taken over by politics of hatred.



The_Face_of_Boo
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30 Oct 2020, 1:38 pm

Was there any referendum on this topic, what does the majority think?


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magz
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30 Oct 2020, 1:58 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Was there any referendum on this topic, what does the majority think?

No, there wasn't even the standard legislation procedure 8O
The parliament was bypassed by taking the issue straight to the Constitution Tribunal (only recently recasted with right puppets).


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30 Oct 2020, 2:09 pm

((((((((( magz )))))))


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30 Oct 2020, 2:47 pm

magz wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Was there any referendum on this topic, what does the majority think?

No, there wasn't even the standard legislation procedure 8O
The parliament was bypassed by taking the issue straight to the Constitution Tribunal (only recently recasted with right puppets).



Oh...

Welcome to that age, again.


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30 Oct 2020, 3:42 pm

blazingstar wrote:
A Catholic/clerical version of the communist party seems a contradiction in terms. No wonder they are unpopular with so many Poles. This kind of ostracism always frightens me. I never know who is next on the list. (This is a childhood fear; my parents were friends with people who still had numbers tattooed on their arms from WWII.)

May grace be with you and your family.

Catholicism and communism? Catholicism pretty much IS theocratic communism. Everyone is guilty and broken. Only the Church (state) can help you. Suffering is a GOOD thing. Daily self-sacrifice is expected. Church leaders are beyond reproach. Everyone is equal under God, except certain (rich) people are more equal than others. And it’s ok to help the needy and invite the needy to come to church; it’s just not ok to actually BE needy. Victims are celebrated and enabled—there are no heroes outside the Church (and Mary and Joseph and all the Saints). And the only real hero is a dead hero...and the Pope.

Catholic charities are nothing if not a wealth redistribution scheme. I was in charge of a program at one point that had been generously funded in the previous year by a charitable foundation. The second year, I was told that I had $30k TOTAL, but to keep my spending reasonably low so other programs could also benefit from it. The looters in my school decided that the funds should be spread EXACTLY evenly, so I barely had enough for necessary equipment upgrades. It wouldn’t make me so mad except two of the teachers who were awarded those funds barely had anything to show for their “hard work,” and their programs had been established long before mine and already had good funding. So people get money but don’t do any work? Message received.

I don’t work there anymore. I’d worked there strictly part-time, was told that to get more students I’d need to work more hours, and then got turned down when my contract came up. Not a mistake I intended to make more than once, but I noticed these people tended to feed off the misery of others. Communism is notorious for passing up merit, and you get rewarded based on how needy you are. Both Communism and Catholicism possess a strong element of greed and thirst for power that you could almost mistake one for the other.

Disclaimer: I have many good, Catholic friends who are nothing like this. This is not an all-out attack on Catholicism, but my criticism of their faith is that it fails to support the rights of individuals, plus the church’s position on sacrifice is literally deadly for anyone who takes it seriously. The total surrender of the person is NO different than Communism, and I don’t think many Catholics are fully aware of the self-hate their church pushes on them. I would think Catholicism is a beautiful religion if they would get rid of all the altruism. It is a breeding ground for what happened to me, and I am by far not the only or last victim of it.



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30 Oct 2020, 4:35 pm

blazingstar wrote:
Please don't harm yourself. I understand the urge. Resist it.

(((magz)))
:heart: :heart: :heart:

^^^^
This


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30 Oct 2020, 7:00 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
magz wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Was there any referendum on this topic, what does the majority think?

No, there wasn't even the standard legislation procedure 8O
The parliament was bypassed by taking the issue straight to the Constitution Tribunal (only recently recasted with right puppets).



Oh...

Welcome to that age, again.



Now you have me interested in the "Total War" series again. :mrgreen:


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30 Oct 2020, 7:07 pm

magz wrote:
Image
I didn't go to protests because of the pandemics.
I bought a box of colorful chalk and went drawing rainbows.
I didn't want to engage my children but my younger daughter wanted to go with me.
I ran out of chalk too soon.

I might not be super-woke but our current government has crossed a boundary that I find fundamental: dehumanisation.
Calling living human beings "disease" and "ideology" for this one percent point to win an election.
I've been dehumanized on ideological basis. I've been living in lies, fear and confusion of conditional acceptance. I've been living pretending to be someone I'm not.
I don't want anyone to experience it.

I just drew rainbows and wrote "you're loved". My daughter, when I explained her the best I could what I mean, drew rainbow-colored two men holding hands... I don't want her to get engaged in things that divide people in such an early age but that's what she understood: there's no reason to hate someone because of who they fall in love with.


I'm glad I'm an atheist.
I'm too rational to be a theist, in any case.

The human psyche, Pfft! :eew:


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31 Oct 2020, 12:11 am

According to the article in the link 65% of Poles are against abortion according to a poll done in 2014 - do you think it changed much ever since?


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magz
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31 Oct 2020, 5:27 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
According to the article in the link 65% of Poles are against abortion according to a poll done in 2014 - do you think it changed much ever since?

Depends what you mean by "against the abortion".
The majority of Poles, I believe, would more or less agree to a statement that "abortion is generally a bad thing". If "against the abortion" means just that, the poll results might be even underestimated.

Abortion was almost-banned in 1993 and this almost-ban was widely accepted. The few exceptions included the pregnancy being a result of a rape, threat to the mother's life or health and the fetus being damaged, malformed or seriously ill.

Current change removed the third exception.

I think you see the difference between "abortion is generally a bad thing" and "no abortion no matter what". Many Poles do.


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magz
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11 Nov 2020, 11:52 am

Darn.
Marsz Niepodległości - Independence March.
For the last few years, they managed to keep their members behave and even attracted many moderates - but current struggle over delegalisation of the march because of the pandemics joined with recent leftist protests... I really liked the idea the leader had, to replace the traditional march with a drive-in event. That was a constructive solution.

Unfortunately, some tensions and the "patriots" forget what has been relatvely successfully promoted (by all parties) for the last few years - that there is nothing patriotic in violence or vandalizing public and private property.
They set on fire someone's flat because two balconies above, someone displayed a rainbow flag and the flares couldn't reach that high. https://twitter.com/democ_de/status/1326529502046941184 How "patriotic" of them.

I'm ashamed of that guys. I don't mind peaceful Independence Marches like the one in 2018 when they were able to make the radicals behave and attract moderates - but this one is an orgy of hate.

Anyway, I never go to the city center on Independence Day. A running joke about it is, unfortunately, untranslatable.


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11 Nov 2020, 12:30 pm

AngelRho wrote:
blazingstar wrote:
A Catholic/clerical version of the communist party seems a contradiction in terms. No wonder they are unpopular with so many Poles. This kind of ostracism always frightens me. I never know who is next on the list. (This is a childhood fear; my parents were friends with people who still had numbers tattooed on their arms from WWII.)

May grace be with you and your family.

Catholicism and communism? Catholicism pretty much IS theocratic communism. Everyone is guilty and broken. Only the Church (state) can help you. Suffering is a GOOD thing. Daily self-sacrifice is expected. Church leaders are beyond reproach. Everyone is equal under God, except certain (rich) people are more equal than others. And it’s ok to help the needy and invite the needy to come to church; it’s just not ok to actually BE needy. Victims are celebrated and enabled—there are no heroes outside the Church (and Mary and Joseph and all the Saints). And the only real hero is a dead hero...and the Pope.

Catholic charities are nothing if not a wealth redistribution scheme. I was in charge of a program at one point that had been generously funded in the previous year by a charitable foundation. The second year, I was told that I had $30k TOTAL, but to keep my spending reasonably low so other programs could also benefit from it. The looters in my school decided that the funds should be spread EXACTLY evenly, so I barely had enough for necessary equipment upgrades. It wouldn’t make me so mad except two of the teachers who were awarded those funds barely had anything to show for their “hard work,” and their programs had been established long before mine and already had good funding. So people get money but don’t do any work? Message received.

I don’t work there anymore. I’d worked there strictly part-time, was told that to get more students I’d need to work more hours, and then got turned down when my contract came up. Not a mistake I intended to make more than once, but I noticed these people tended to feed off the misery of others. Communism is notorious for passing up merit, and you get rewarded based on how needy you are. Both Communism and Catholicism possess a strong element of greed and thirst for power that you could almost mistake one for the other.

Disclaimer: I have many good, Catholic friends who are nothing like this. This is not an all-out attack on Catholicism, but my criticism of their faith is that it fails to support the rights of individuals, plus the church’s position on sacrifice is literally deadly for anyone who takes it seriously. The total surrender of the person is NO different than Communism, and I don’t think many Catholics are fully aware of the self-hate their church pushes on them. I would think Catholicism is a beautiful religion if they would get rid of all the altruism. It is a breeding ground for what happened to me, and I am by far not the only or last victim of it.


"I would think Catholicism is a beautiful religion if they would get rid of all the altruism."

Smiles, Humans By Very Nature Are Altruistic; Born This Way As Science Shows this is A REAL
'Only ReaSon' We've Survived This Long Through Social Cooperation; YES, 'Most' Humans Born Altruistic...

Religion; Is only Altruistic; Just as Any Other Tribal Organization For those Who Fall
Under the 'Group Think' Tradition; The Teachings of "JeSuS Christ", For Whatever Yeshua's
'Real Middle Name' is Before, 40 Years of So of Oral Tradition Took Hold; Greek
Writing Romans, Cherry picking What They Liked Out of Greek Tradition
And Innumerable Oral Traditions of Christian Sects then too; Ruled By
Constantine To Decide, if the Little Brown Dude is All Divine or 'Arian'
Flavored, in a Nicene Council of 325 A.D.; By Catholics 'in Board Rooms'
Per a Nicene Creed Written that is Still Held as Tradition And Rule Now;

Although, Science Shows that only About Half
of Catholics Believe in the Divinity of the Guru
Beautitudes Altruistically Speaking Dude As
Reported in Matthew 5, Verses 3 Thru 11;

And 70 Percent Surely Don't Believe in the
'The Magic Underwear' That A Piece of
Bread Literally Frigging Becomes the
Body of Dust 2000 or so Years Ago Then

oF A Name Changed; And Teachings
Innumerably Changed, in instances
of Scribe Mistakes; So Many Intentional
Changes By Those Who felt By Creative Spirit they
Had A Greater More Improved Story to Tale through
Centuries; Yet, Ya Know What; Open Source Pens Work Greater ToGeTHeR too...

We Get The Reminders of the Beatitudes, Matthew Chapter 5, Verses 3 thru 11;

As A Reminder That Humans Can And Will Do; Sacrifice Their Lives for the Blood

Of Love to Live on...

Love is Always

A Greater Place

When Actually Breathing

In Sanctity With Least Harm For All;

And The Essence of that Blood Love

Becomes More Important than Empty Words

or Only Shells of Men in Dust Who Do Not Breathe Love at All....

'We' aRe Still Most

All Classically

Evolved; Born

Naked Altruistic;

All the Selfish Greed;

All the Laws Designed to

Take Human Nature Freedoms

Away for the 'Bad Place' Will Never

Survive

the
Naked
Love Born
Now Of

'The Child'...

Out of Special Interest
For All Stuff Philosophy,
Politics, And Religions; i Listened
to a Famous PR Bishop Barron Suggest
that the Teachings of Jesus are Nothing of
Real Value; And Nothing Really Special; It's only
The Myth; The Idol Worship as Developed in Tradition
in 325 AD by The Minds of Only Men Without a Woman's Touch...

Therefore

All This

'Toxic Patriarchy'

There Upon And Thereon

A Vice President Now Who iS A Woman,

Mixed Jamaican And East Indian; Change

is Here; Even in Darkest Baddest places... For Real...

When One Man Becomes
'God An Idol Trump'

aS Older Testaments

Continue to

SHoW

How

That Always Ends up.. down...

A Biggest Loser is An 'Only God' in a Man....

or Just A Word.. An Empty Shell Without Love...

’The Child’ oF LiGHT ReBoRN LoVE ReTuRNS NoW

Where Sanctity of Breathing Love Becomes The Paramount Gold

Tip of the CouRaGE

Pyramid

Wisdom

EYe iN

Beauty

Love For All Freer.. With Least Harm For ALL

NoW; The Good Place iNDeed... THE BALANCE;

As 'The Bad Place', Perhaps, Destined to Fall Again...


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11 Nov 2020, 2:27 pm

magz wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54716780
What's painful to me is not only the change of the law - I'm rather pro life but in a pragmatic manner, not at a cost of other tragedies - but how they react to the protests. Our current government calls to "save real Poland" from "those who are destroying it"... sounds familiar? Yeah, cut your society in half and call one half to fight against the other - sounds familiar?
Fkfkfkfkfkfkfkfk!
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Yeah, sorry, I'm immoderate right now. It's all happening while covid is gaining momentum and unofficial data shows much more deaths than the confirmed ones - likely, a lot of Poles choose to avoid doctors and hospitals and die at home. The official data is published with some 6 weeks delay.
And who will be blamed for this? Obviously the "rioters" because what's wrong with making extremely controversial legislation in the middle of an outbreak?

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I can sympathize. The little I know of the current state in Poland is disturbing. But the long view of history will show that the pendulum will swing from extremes.

As far as the personal impact, that is harder. Being autistic simply accentuates that feeling. Take a break from the news. Do something else. Fill your thoughts with other things--although I might not suggest the US elctions. ;)