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QFT
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08 Nov 2020, 11:28 pm

Before I proceed, let me warn you that I am not a native English speaker (my native language is Russian) so it is always possible I hear the words a bit differently from how a native English speaker would hear them. But when I hear the word "concede" to me it sounds like something analogous to resigning. Kind of like if someone is "about to" get fired from job, then they resign "before" they get fired and that way they can save their face and say "well, I didn't get fired, I resigned". Similarly, if someone is about to lose an election, they can save face by saying "well, I didn't lose election, I conceded".

Indeed, if you look at the primaries, there were some candidates that dropped out "before" they actually lost. They simply realized that they "will" lose eventually so that they wanted to save money by ending their campaign. However, Bernie Sanders was not one of them. Yet -- despite the fact that he didn't give up until he actually lost -- he still used the word "concede". So to me it sounded like he didn't want to admit that he actually lost so he pretended that he conceded before he lost, even though that was not the case. Now, I am not holding it against Bernie, because overwhelming majority of candidates that lost (whether they be Democrat or Republican) do the same exact thing; Bernie is just the latest example. So maybe its a "tradition" of trying to save face in this particular way?

And in case of jobs the same thing. There are some people that truly resign, without being fired. For example, someone may resign because they found a better job, or because of family situation, or for any number of reasons. Yet there are others that resign because they are about to get fired. While on the surface it seems like a dishonest attempt to save face, in practice it became a tradition -- to the point that the employer who is about to fire someone would even "ask them to resign". So maybe "asking a candidate to concede" and "asking an employer to resign" is the same kind of phenomenon? Both concession of a candidate that is already lost, and resignation of an employer who has been fired, look dishonest. Yet in both cases -- thanks to the "tradition of saving face" -- those respective people are being "asked" to make that dishonest move before their firing from job or loss in an election actually takes an effect.

Now lets look at Trump's situation. People are making these two separate statements. They act as if its one statement, but actually there are two of them:

Statement 1: Trump is dishonest for the fact that he doesn't admit he lost

Statement 2: Trump is dishonest for the fact that he doesn't concede

To stress the difference between these two statements, let me tell you right now: I agree with Statement 1 and I disagree with Statement 2.

As far as Statement 1, its self explanatory. The reality is that he lost, and it is dishonest of him not to acknowledge the reality. And the constitution is that he should stop being a president at January 20, so it is dishonest of him to try to continue to be a president past that date. This should be a very simple logic, and I completely agree with it.

However, as far as Statement 2, I disagree with that statement. Because he can acknowledge his defeat *and* stop being a president *without* conceding. Just like when you play chess and you are being checkmated, you acknowledge your defeat *without* resigning. When was the last time you saw someone resign *after* being checkmated? Wouldn't you think it would be weird if that were to happen?

Now I realize that "acknowledging a defeat without conceding" is not what Trump is doing. Instead, Trump is refusing to acknowledge a defeat as well. So yes, he is dishonest. But you just have to be careful "where" he is dishonest. His dishonesty is manifested in his refusal to admit a defeat, yes. But it is not manifested in his refusal to concede.

As a matter of fact, I can picture the following scenario where Trump *would* concede and *use* it for his dishonest tactic. In particular, it can go as follows:

Trump There was voting fraud and blah blah blah

Trump supporter I agree with you

Trump Good. But, unfortunately, I have some personal things I have to take care of (family situation, health, etc) so I should concede. But, just for the record, I won my case: I have convinced everyone that I won an election. I am just conceding

A democrat Fine. As long as you will be out of the office, I don't really care any more about how you frame it. Glad you are gone.

Now, in the above scenario, Trump would have chosen his time of concession really carefully. In particular, he chose to concede immediately after his supporter had his say and before anyone else had time to reply. That way, he can frame it as if his supporter had the last word and so he just convinced "everyone" (which he haven't).

Now lets go one step further. Lets imagine that its not just Trump who does this, but everyone else does it too. Then the first few people would have to put a bit of effort in orchestrating such scenarios. But then after it would keep happening over and over, then at some point people would just say "you don't have to make an exact story on how you conceded lets just pretend that you did". And then whenever people say "I concede" it basically means "I leave it up to your imagination to think up a scenario on how I left without really losing". And this being the case, every single candidate who "conceded" after the election was dishonest. And if Trump refuses to concede, then he would be the only one "not" guilty of "this particular brand" of dishonestly.

So then the total summary would be the following. Every single person -- including Trump -- is dishonest. But Trump's brand of dishonesty is different from everyone else's brand of dishonesty. People other than Trump are dishonest in a sense that they pretended as if they voluntarily left the race after the race was already over. Trump on the other hand is dishonest in a sense that he refuses to acknowledge his defeat. Both is dishonest. Its just one is a lot more common than the other.



Brictoria
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08 Nov 2020, 11:51 pm

In the current context, "conceding" is interpreted as meaning accepting loss.

At this point in time, however, there's the minor detail (although quite relevent) that the election results are yet to be declared (in 2000, court cases went until mid December), so why would a person concede if they feel (subjectively) that there may have been fraud\irregularities which affected the process\results, and so want to wait on these being adjudicated before conceding...



Tempus Fugit
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09 Nov 2020, 12:45 am

Considering the unusual circumstances, both conceding and declaring victory should be placed on hold.



Mona Pereth
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09 Nov 2020, 12:52 am

Regarding the general question of what "concession" is all about in the context of an election here in the U.S.A., see the following video:

What if a US presidential candidate refuses to concede after an election?
Van Jones


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 09 Nov 2020, 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

QFT
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09 Nov 2020, 1:06 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Regarding the general question of what "concession" is all about in the context of an election, see the following video:

What if a US presidential candidate refuses to concede after an election?
Van Jones


Even the title of the video shows the absurdity of the presupposition. Its like saying "what if a player who lost refuses to resign after the game". Well, duh, when was the last time when someone *did* resign after they officially lost?! Resignation is for the case when someone anticipates losing, not for the case when they already lost. Same with concession.



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09 Nov 2020, 1:19 am

QFT wrote:
Even the title of the video shows the absurdity of the presupposition. Its like saying "what if a player who lost refuses to resign after the game". Well, duh, when was the last time when someone *did* resign after they officially lost?! Resignation is for the case when someone anticipates losing, not for the case when they already lost. Same with concession.

You're missing the point. Please watch the video to see what this is all about.


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09 Nov 2020, 1:33 am

Tempus Fugit wrote:
Considering the unusual circumstances, both conceding and declaring victory should be placed on hold.

Here's the problem:

Most of Trump's allegations of fraud/irregularities are completely and obviously baseless. The only allegation of his that held any water had to do with the seating arrangements for poll watchers when counting absentee ballots in Pennsylvania. But his initial accusations of fraud were based on nothing more than the already-expected fact that, in several states, he initially seemed to be ahead, but then Biden surged ahead.

See Red And Blue Shifts Happen. That’s Not Evidence Of Fraud..


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Brictoria
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09 Nov 2020, 1:48 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
Considering the unusual circumstances, both conceding and declaring victory should be placed on hold.

Here's the problem:

Most of Trump's allegations of fraud/irregularities are completely and obviously baseless


Has that been determined in court\by an impartial source tasked with looking into them, or just your subjective view?



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09 Nov 2020, 2:05 am

Let's apply the word in a sentence.

"An honourable loser would concede defeat in the US election".



Tempus Fugit
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09 Nov 2020, 2:16 am

Brictoria wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
Considering the unusual circumstances, both conceding and declaring victory should be placed on hold.

Here's the problem:

Most of Trump's allegations of fraud/irregularities are completely and obviously baseless


Has that been determined in court\by an impartial source tasked with looking into them, or just your subjective view?


Same question.



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09 Nov 2020, 2:21 am

Brictoria wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
Considering the unusual circumstances, both conceding and declaring victory should be placed on hold.

Here's the problem:

Most of Trump's allegations of fraud/irregularities are completely and obviously baseless


Has that been determined in court\by an impartial source tasked with looking into them, or just your subjective view?

International monitoring by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) found no evidence of fraud in the US presidential election:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/11/5/osce-observer-says-trump-allegations-on-vote-harm-public-trust

The full OSCE Statement of Preliminary Findings and Conclusions is here:
https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/9/6/469437.pdf

They found only two instances of minor fraud in New Jersey and Texas which were quickly corrected. Most references to fraud are with regard to Trump's baseless claims of fraud.

Trump's claims of fraud were baseless insinuation and innuendo from the beginning. He did the same thing in 2016. Just because someone says something repeatedly without offering credible, or any, evidence does not mean the other side has an obligation to disprove it. Disproving something is near-impossible. Asking someone to prove a negative sounds to me like the other side is unable to prove a positive.


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09 Nov 2020, 2:56 am

QFT wrote:
Before I proceed, let me warn you that I am not a native English speaker (my native language is Russian) so it is always possible I hear the words a bit differently from how a native English speaker would hear them. But when I hear the word "concede" to me it sounds like something analogous to resigning. Kind of like if someone is "about to" get fired from job, then they resign "before" they get fired and that way they can save their face and say "well, I didn't get fired, I resigned". Similarly, if someone is about to lose an election, they can save face by saying "well, I didn't lose election, I conceded".

Indeed, if you look at the primaries, there were some candidates that dropped out "before" they actually lost. They simply realized that they "will" lose eventually so that they wanted to save money by ending their campaign. However, Bernie Sanders was not one of them. Yet -- despite the fact that he didn't give up until he actually lost -- he still used the word "concede". So to me it sounded like he didn't want to admit that he actually lost so he pretended that he conceded before he lost, even though that was not the case. Now, I am not holding it against Bernie, because overwhelming majority of candidates that lost (whether they be Democrat or Republican) do the same exact thing; Bernie is just the latest example. So maybe its a "tradition" of trying to save face in this particular way?

And in case of jobs the same thing. There are some people that truly resign, without being fired. For example, someone may resign because they found a better job, or because of family situation, or for any number of reasons. Yet there are others that resign because they are about to get fired. While on the surface it seems like a dishonest attempt to save face, in practice it became a tradition -- to the point that the employer who is about to fire someone would even "ask them to resign". So maybe "asking a candidate to concede" and "asking an employer to resign" is the same kind of phenomenon? Both concession of a candidate that is already lost, and resignation of an employer who has been fired, look dishonest. Yet in both cases -- thanks to the "tradition of saving face" -- those respective people are being "asked" to make that dishonest move before their firing from job or loss in an election actually takes an effect.

Now lets look at Trump's situation. People are making these two separate statements. They act as if its one statement, but actually there are two of them:

Statement 1: Trump is dishonest for the fact that he doesn't admit he lost

Statement 2: Trump is dishonest for the fact that he doesn't concede

To stress the difference between these two statements, let me tell you right now: I agree with Statement 1 and I disagree with Statement 2.

As far as Statement 1, its self explanatory. The reality is that he lost, and it is dishonest of him not to acknowledge the reality. And the constitution is that he should stop being a president at January 20, so it is dishonest of him to try to continue to be a president past that date. This should be a very simple logic, and I completely agree with it.

However, as far as Statement 2, I disagree with that statement. Because he can acknowledge his defeat *and* stop being a president *without* conceding. Just like when you play chess and you are being checkmated, you acknowledge your defeat *without* resigning. When was the last time you saw someone resign *after* being checkmated? Wouldn't you think it would be weird if that were to happen?

Now I realize that "acknowledging a defeat without conceding" is not what Trump is doing. Instead, Trump is refusing to acknowledge a defeat as well. So yes, he is dishonest. But you just have to be careful "where" he is dishonest. His dishonesty is manifested in his refusal to admit a defeat, yes. But it is not manifested in his refusal to concede.

As a matter of fact, I can picture the following scenario where Trump *would* concede and *use* it for his dishonest tactic. In particular, it can go as follows:

Trump There was voting fraud and blah blah blah

Trump supporter I agree with you

Trump Good. But, unfortunately, I have some personal things I have to take care of (family situation, health, etc) so I should concede. But, just for the record, I won my case: I have convinced everyone that I won an election. I am just conceding

A democrat Fine. As long as you will be out of the office, I don't really care any more about how you frame it. Glad you are gone.

Now, in the above scenario, Trump would have chosen his time of concession really carefully. In particular, he chose to concede immediately after his supporter had his say and before anyone else had time to reply. That way, he can frame it as if his supporter had the last word and so he just convinced "everyone" (which he haven't).

Now lets go one step further. Lets imagine that its not just Trump who does this, but everyone else does it too. Then the first few people would have to put a bit of effort in orchestrating such scenarios. But then after it would keep happening over and over, then at some point people would just say "you don't have to make an exact story on how you conceded lets just pretend that you did". And then whenever people say "I concede" it basically means "I leave it up to your imagination to think up a scenario on how I left without really losing". And this being the case, every single candidate who "conceded" after the election was dishonest. And if Trump refuses to concede, then he would be the only one "not" guilty of "this particular brand" of dishonestly.

So then the total summary would be the following. Every single person -- including Trump -- is dishonest. But Trump's brand of dishonesty is different from everyone else's brand of dishonesty. People other than Trump are dishonest in a sense that they pretended as if they voluntarily left the race after the race was already over. Trump on the other hand is dishonest in a sense that he refuses to acknowledge his defeat. Both is dishonest. Its just one is a lot more common than the other.


It isnt complicated.

We live in a democracy so loosing candidates are expected to reaffirm their allegience to the democratic system itself.

Whats implied when you concede is that "we may still be the opposition, but we will be the LOYAL opposition".

So if you loose the election you "admit defeat" ( ie concede)- so both you- and the nation can move on. If every candidate was a sore loser and threatened legal action in every election (local and national) since 1790 then American democracy wouldve collapsed a long time ago.

I dont know what your point is about the candidates within the Democrat party.

Some candidates realize theyre not gonna win, so they resign before the last primary, but some go to the bitter end. But even Sanders, who fought to the bitter end, graciously "conceded". He fought to the last primary ostensibly because he still had (and still has) a strong following within the party. But he still conceded in order to show loyality to the party, and the nation's democratic system as a whole, and ...also the realistic way to defeat Trump was to back is former rival Biden anyway- because Sanders and his supporters - dislike Trump more than they dislike Biden.

Pretty simple and obvious.

Dont understand what part of the above that you could possibly not understand.

And besides - Manchester Union doesnt threaten legal action every time they loose a soccer match, and the Washington Redskins dont threaten legal action every time they loose a game. Pro sports would collapse if they did.



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09 Nov 2020, 3:01 am

roronoa79 wrote:
He did the same thing in 2016.


Speaking of 2016, democrats did a lot more of it when they talked about Russia. I know you are going to say "allegations about Russia were true, while allegations about 2020 vote fraud are false". But then its a different question. So its not that you are against the principle of challenging the election. Rather its that you formed your own opinion regarding these two specific cases. Of course, that opinion might be very well justified, I am not saying it isn't. Just want you to acknowledge that the issue is the specifics of these two cases, as opposed to a blind statement that "everyone has to accept the results no matter what".

The reason I am making this point is that I watched a video "you can do it Trump" where they listed examples of some of the previous candidates that admitted their defeat, and they listed Hillary Clinton among them. So I was like "really? Hillary admitted defeat? I thought she talked about Russia for subsequent 3 years". Once again, I am not saying allegations about Russia are false. I am just saying that this video really weakened its argument by mentioning Hillary Clinton.

roronoa79 wrote:
Just because someone says something repeatedly without offering credible, or any, evidence does not mean the other side has an obligation to disprove it. Disproving something is near-impossible. Asking someone to prove a negative sounds to me like the other side is unable to prove a positive.


Actually much of the legalities "is" about disproving something. Why do you have cameras in the store? In order to disprove the idea that someone stole something. Why do people have to put signature on important documents? In order to disprove the idea that someone impersonated them. Why do you go through the exray in the airport? In order to disprove the possibility that you are a terrorist. Why do standardized tests follow all the formalities? In order to disprove the idea that someone cheated.

So if standardized tests have people watching test takers, why don't we have people watching the count of votes? By the way I only know it from youtube video, so maybe I misunderstood something. But what they said is that in Pennsylvania they were not allowed to be closer than certain number of feet to people that count votes. To me that sounds quite weird. I mean, what would be stopping someone who "counts votes" from simply making up a number that would favor their preferred candidate? I am not saying it favors Biden by the way. I mean Trump supporter can lie too, just like the Biden supporter can. I just don't understand how can "anybody" be trusted to count votes correctly if nobody is watching -- regardless of their political affiliation.



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09 Nov 2020, 3:29 am

Tempus Fugit wrote:
Considering the unusual circumstances, both conceding and declaring victory should be placed on hold.

I fail to see any unusual circumstances.

- Biden stands to win the popular vote by almost 3 %, which is in the lower end, but higher - in the 20th century - than 1960, 1968, 1972 and 2004.

- Biden stands to win the electoral college by 306-232, which is higher - again in the 20th century - than 1960, 1972, 2000 and 2004 (and tied with 2016).

- The closest election in the 20th century was the 1960 election, where Kennedy won by only 0.17 percent of the popular vote. California, Hawaii, Illinois and Missouri were as close calls (or even closer) than the battleground states in 2020... but Richard M. Nixon conceded the day after the election.

That being said, it is correct that a concession is not necessary. It is not a requirement in the constitution for the transfer of office from one president to another.



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09 Nov 2020, 3:35 am

naturalplastic wrote:
We live in a democracy so loosing candidates are expected to reaffirm their allegience to the democratic system itself.


Well, you don't reaffirm your allegience to not robbing banks as well as the rest of the laws. So why should losing candidates reaffirm their allegience to the laws of elections? The allegience is implied.

naturalplastic wrote:
So if you loose the election you "admit defeat" ( ie concede)- so both you- and the nation can move on.


People should be able to move on without anybody conceding. The results of election are announced, so everyone hears them and everyone moves on.

naturalplastic wrote:
If every candidate was a sore loser and threatened legal action in every election (local and national) since 1790 then American democracy wouldve collapsed a long time ago.


Agreed. But failure to concede does not imply a threat of legal action. Thats what I was trying to say in OP.

In case of Trump, yes he "happened" to do legal action, which is wrong. But that doesn't mean that "anybody" who fails to concede is going to do legal action. So the question still remains: why did all those other candidates -- who didn't do a legal action -- made a concession speech. Why didn't they just go completely quiet without any concession speech?

When you watch football you don't see a losing side "resigning" after the game is over. Rather, results are announced and it is assumed that everyone accepts them. Why can't election be the same way?

naturalplastic wrote:
I dont know what your point is about the candidates within the Democrat party.


I would say its true for both parties not just democratic one, and to me it looks equally weird in both parties. Its just that the example of Sanders is what I happened to be the most familiar with. But I am sure other examples are similar.

naturalplastic wrote:
Some candidates realize theyre not gonna win, so they resign before the last primary, but some go to the bitter end. But even Sanders, who fought to the bitter end, graciously "conceded".


Do you remember that famous photo of Biden holding Sanders by the shoulder and Sanders pointing at Biden? So its like they are saying "oh by the way, we were running the same campaign" and then Biden adding "listen to him, he is going to tell you what I wanted you to hear". And then everyone else is like "oh really? And here we thought that you were running against him? So why did you spend all this money in this campaign?" So if anyone, its Sanders who didn't want to admit defeat. If he was honest, he would have said "Biden won, I lost, I am bitter about it but lets vote for him in order to keep Trump out". But no, instead he said "oh I didn't lose, we were good friends to begin with. Oh, you thought I ran 'against' him? you misunderstood".

Also the whole thing about "we should unite together" is also a lie. Because "we should unite together" sounds like "I didn't lose my campaign, I just reached an epiphany that made me realize that the difference between me and the other candidate are not significant enough to be divided over", which is fine and well except that its not true -- yes you lost, and you only say it because you know that you lost. So a more honest statement would be something like this: "our differences are great, and its a pity that the other candidate won; however, as loyal citizens that obey the laws of the land we should follow that really bad guy because thats what constitution demands". That won't be a lawsuit, not at all. That would be someone being honest.

And the fact that nobody makes a statement like that indicates that its their way of "not admitting a defeat". Saying "he is a bad guy but I will follow him because thats what the law demands" sounds like saying "I am weak and I lost". On the other hand saying "lets follow that guy for the sake of unity" sounds like "I am strong and maybe I would have won, I just decided that it wasn't worth it because i care about unity more". So the latter rather than the former is someone who doesn't want to admit the defeat.

naturalplastic wrote:
...also the realistic way to defeat Trump was to back is former rival Biden anyway- because Sanders and his supporters - dislike Trump more than they dislike Biden.


If thats what he truly thought, he wouldn't have ran on the first place. So -- regardless of whether thats true or not -- he didn't truly think that. The only *honest* reason why he conceded is that he lost. So thats what he should have said. And also it shouldn't be called concession because concession applies to those that didn't fight to bitter end, and he did. So he should have just acknowledged that he *lost*, without conceding. Which is exactly what happens at the end of the football game.

naturalplastic wrote:
And besides - Manchester Union doesnt threaten legal action every time they loose a soccer match, and the Washington Redskins dont threaten legal action every time they loose a game. Pro sports would collapse if they did.


But they don't concede either. Concede= Resign. You don't ever see any team resigning after they already lost the game.



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09 Nov 2020, 3:38 am

By the way, the norm that the candidates have to concede is what created the problem to begin with.

If we didn't have a norm that losing candidates concede, then the winner would simply be announced and it would be a given that this person won, that other person lost, just like it is in the football game.

But if we do have a norm that losing candidates concede, then a dishonest losing candidate can stay in office by simply failing to concede. They don't even have to do any legal action at all. They can just fail to concede "just because they don't feel like it" and this will keep them in the office.

On the other hand if concession wasn't part of the formula then their defeat would be automatic and nobody would have to wait for any formal speech that they don't want to give.