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magz
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11 Nov 2020, 10:34 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Imagine if there was such a thing as a "thermonuclear" family? :P

Family fusion? :chin:
Probably still better than "unclear" family :mrgreen:


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magz
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11 Nov 2020, 10:46 am

I think family unit shapes often simply respond to economy - in the article Mona linked, a shift from "corporate families" (large households centered around family farms and businesses) to "nuclear families" is described as linked to mass emergence of factory workplaces. So, the latter seem linked to good times for industry - but as their results rather than causes.


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11 Nov 2020, 11:30 am

magz wrote:
I think family unit shapes often simply respond to economy - in the article Mona linked, a shift from "corporate families" (large households centered around family farms and businesses) to "nuclear families" is described as linked to mass emergence of factory workplaces. So, the latter seem linked to good times for industry - but as their results rather than causes.


In a way, yes. I mean, around 100 years ago a "normal" family in a shared household around here was grandparents, married son (usually the eldest), his wife and kids, and the man's unmarried siblings. Possibly some workers, too. Helped with the farm work and there was no money or and to get everyone their own places anyway.



aghogday
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11 Nov 2020, 11:39 am



SMiLes, At Least As
Nomads of Before;
And Even Now, Humans Traveled/
Travel For Subsistence in Clans

In Relatively Small Groups;

Now, it is often One
Human in 'A Can';

So Far Fewer
Than Even
A Nuclear
Family of
2 or 3 or 4...

Yes, an Elder
in 'A High Rise'
Apartment Complex
With Online but no
Flesh and Blood
Contacts...

No
Family
Or Flesh
And Blood
Friends at All

'These Days' 'In Japan';

It's True, A 'Pandemic' Now
This iS iNcreasingly Becoming

The Human Species Out of Balance;

Over Populating the Earth, Becoming the
Machines We Create to Consume All We Meet
And Greet, once Designed to Aid Creature Comforts;
Not Take them Away in Disharmony of 'I'mBalance'...

So, What is the
Price; Yes, the
Clean-up Crews
in Japan Removing
the Remains of the
Totally Forgotten 'Toys

of Humanity';

Indeed,

the

Machines...

Honestly, It's Just the
Hands of Nature In-Synch
Now With the Human Machines
We Create; 'They' don't Breed Nearly

As Much
With Robo-Dogs
In Baby Carriages and
Sex Partner Machines
In Synthetic Materials;
or Just Screens, Just Screens,

And More 'Screams'...

Ain't Nature Beautiful

As 'She' Brings

Pandemics

And

Literally

Naturally Exterminates
Them BacK iN Balance...

Understanding Our Nature;
Or Lack, thereof, is a Killing
Disease of Nature Deficit Disorder
NDD; GDD God Deficit Disorder Same as it's

True the 'God
Thing' the
Idol of All
Our Tools
We Use Now
And Become
From Written
Words Scratched
In Sand, Thereon
Separates
Us

From

The Nature
of Balance;

And Who We Even Are:

Hint: Nature in Balance or Not...

Pay the Karma of Balance;

No Escaping

Breath of Nature...

Taking Care of my
Health; Not Adding
Any Surviving Children
to the Polluted Human
Environment of the Earth,

Yet It is Still So Very True,

Humans Are Lovely Creatures;
When Altruistic Love Lives In Extending
Mostly Naked Family And Friends

In Relatively Small Villages...

No Animal that Currently
Exists is Evolved For Instant

Gratification...

The Down

Fall

of the

Clothes We Wear

Now; All The Tools We

Become to Dominate the Rest of Nature;

Yet, We No Longer See Who is the Real Master

And Servant;

Clue:

THere Is
No Separation;

WHere THere is Unity
of Night and Day There
is Twilight of Understanding More;

In Other

Words,

Balance

of Dark and Light;

Just Plain Old Balance

of Giving And Sharing More

Than Taking And Hoarding; Foraging

Hand-In-Hand, in Small Villages, WHere

The Warmth of the Sun is The Same Warmth Within

to Give and
Share to
All with

Least

Harm;

The Human

Condition Exposed
Naked and Free Without

So Many Killing Clothes of Culture';

Oh Lord, How Dangerous 'That Fig Leaf' Truly Is...

This is Why Most Every 'Human Prophet' Arises 'Naked'....

Just an Invitation

To Take All

These

Clothes

Off and

Enjoy Connection
REAL CONNECTION
AND Gratitude for THE

STRUGGLE OF BALANCE....

There is no

Balance

Without

Struggle;

There is no

Real Gratitude Unless Day Is Night...

THiS iNViSiBLE Sun That Breathes Warmth Within, Out of Cold Grey Days...

It's Fascinating, Drones; Yes, Wonderful And Very Specialized Nerds and Geeks

Are Nature's Best Friend for OMG of Nature How Great A Tool of Birth Control Online Is...

Avatars

Create

In Different

Ways; and in some
Ways at least; We Still Survive, And Even Thrive...

Ha! Nuclear Families; Ya Gotta Be Kidding iN A World

Of Avatars Now...

Plugged in

by Choice;

Plugged

NoW

iNdeed

By Nature
to Save the
Overall Nature We aRe

Again; Never Ever Any Separation;

Even When We Fantasize We aRe Divided;

Nature Rules

Balance Now....

THeRE is No
Escape; Yet Still Now,
Even Greater, THeRe aRe ZiLLioNS
of Ways to Create Heaven
Within As Many Stars as
There are Colors of
iMaGiNaTioN and
CReaTiViTY

WiTHiN;

iNDeed, THeRe

iS THiS iNViSiBLE Sun Within, Still Breathing

Out of Time, Distance, Space, And Out of

Matter;

For 'Who'

Are 'These Words' Now...

WinkS, iN A Place Forever Now
With No Sun Or Moon Or Even StarS oNly Avatars Breathing...

'Logos/Rhema', Indeed, As Symbols of Who We aRe Come to Breathe....

FlesH And Blood SPiRiT Free...

In Other Words,

It's All A Matter
of Perspective; This 'Nuclear' LiFE NoW...

When i First Heard the Song, 'Invisible Sun'
in 1981 in 'Synchronicity', before i Heard
The Count of 3; i Just Knew, 6 is Yet to come...

Just An Acausal

Connecting

Principle

For

Real

Only

Psychologically

Meaningful to me,
Born on 6.6.60; Yes,
For Do Understand

Each And Every Human

Is MORE THAN A STAR

A MULTI-UNiVerSE Breathing iNDeed....

We aRe

JusT

NaKeD Balance

Born As iS ETeRNaLLY

NoW MoRE iNDeeD

AuTiSTiCaLLY NoW

ArTiSTiCaLLY Too

All That Divides

is

U R

UNiTY iNDeeD

At LEasT iN Balance..:)

Away Away
From the
'Cold Night Air'...


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12 Nov 2020, 4:41 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Imagine if there was such a thing as a "thermonuclear" family?
Obviously, you haven't met my ex-wife.


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14 Nov 2020, 4:53 pm

Fireblossom wrote:
magz wrote:
I think family unit shapes often simply respond to economy - in the article Mona linked, a shift from "corporate families" (large households centered around family farms and businesses) to "nuclear families" is described as linked to mass emergence of factory workplaces. So, the latter seem linked to good times for industry - but as their results rather than causes.


In a way, yes. I mean, around 100 years ago a "normal" family in a shared household around here was grandparents, married son (usually the eldest), his wife and kids, and the man's unmarried siblings. Possibly some workers, too. Helped with the farm work and there was no money or and to get everyone their own places anyway.

You don't even have to go back that far; a lot of Baby Boomers grew up in homes shared with their parents and grandparents. I think they were the first generation in the US to normalize single family homes housing two parents and 1-4 kids, and they also seemed more likely to isolate kids from grandparents.

But regarding social politicking, there are enough Republican divorcees (including lawmakers, state governors and judges) and enough Democrats living in 'traditional' homes that it's probably more a generational difference than a partisan one.

@Mags, Brooks wrote a lot of not-very-partisan pieces in the past. He was one of the only syndicated columnists in the US who could talk comfortably to members of both partisan factions. Unfortunately it looks like you would need to be a New York Times subscriber to see some of the more interesting ones from 2018 and earlier.

In one column a few years ago he compared the current period of unrest to the 1960s and 1970s, concluding that although some of the popular cultural provocateurs of the past were as vulgar as the current generation (or more vulgar), their style didn't become normalized.



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15 Nov 2020, 3:37 am

Jumping into the thread a bit late, so someone may have said this already.

I define the nuclear family as two committed parents and one or more children. To me it doesn't matter what the parents identify as long as they are committed to each other and raising their child well. The institution of marriage tends to promote this structure but is neither necessary nor sufficient to maintain it.

Basically every study in the world will suggest this is the best model for raising children. Children with two parents get more attention and support. They live in better financial situations. It's hard to be a parent under the best of circumstances, it's really really hard if you're on your own. It's really hard if you're in a fractured relationship with the other parent and the kids are splitting time between you.

The cost of the nuclear family is of course to the adults. Every parent I know says their kids are worth the sacrifice.

I think its good for society to promote the nuclear family. To promote stable marriage as a goal in life. Again I think LGBTQ people can have nuclear families, as long as the parents are committed to each other and their children.


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magz
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15 Nov 2020, 11:05 am

Antrax wrote:
Jumping into the thread a bit late, so someone may have said this already.

I define the nuclear family as two committed parents and one or more children. To me it doesn't matter what the parents identify as long as they are committed to each other and raising their child well. The institution of marriage tends to promote this structure but is neither necessary nor sufficient to maintain it.

Basically every study in the world will suggest this is the best model for raising children. Children with two parents get more attention and support. They live in better financial situations. It's hard to be a parent under the best of circumstances, it's really really hard if you're on your own. It's really hard if you're in a fractured relationship with the other parent and the kids are splitting time between you.

The cost of the nuclear family is of course to the adults. Every parent I know says their kids are worth the sacrifice.

I think its good for society to promote the nuclear family. To promote stable marriage as a goal in life. Again I think LGBTQ people can have nuclear families, as long as the parents are committed to each other and their children.

My thougths - and the article Mona linked - go rather in the direction that nuclear family is too small to raise kids, unless surrounded by other close relationships.
Kind of better than one-parent family but worse than extended family or family plus close friendships.


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15 Nov 2020, 8:45 pm

magz wrote:
Antrax wrote:
Jumping into the thread a bit late, so someone may have said this already.

I define the nuclear family as two committed parents and one or more children. To me it doesn't matter what the parents identify as long as they are committed to each other and raising their child well. The institution of marriage tends to promote this structure but is neither necessary nor sufficient to maintain it.

Basically every study in the world will suggest this is the best model for raising children. Children with two parents get more attention and support. They live in better financial situations. It's hard to be a parent under the best of circumstances, it's really really hard if you're on your own. It's really hard if you're in a fractured relationship with the other parent and the kids are splitting time between you.

The cost of the nuclear family is of course to the adults. Every parent I know says their kids are worth the sacrifice.

I think its good for society to promote the nuclear family. To promote stable marriage as a goal in life. Again I think LGBTQ people can have nuclear families, as long as the parents are committed to each other and their children.

My thougths - and the article Mona linked - go rather in the direction that nuclear family is too small to raise kids, unless surrounded by other close relationships.
Kind of better than one-parent family but worse than extended family or family plus close friendships.


I think this is very correct, but a nuclear family is a good launching point for this. I think most "normal people" develop close friendships as long as they have a stable home in the same place for a long period of time. Me and my sister grew up in a nuclear family without much extended family. She developed close friendships as a child, I did not. By objective standards we're both doing fine, although I've had my struggles. I think some disorder called autism might account for the disparities.

From a practical standpoint while a larger unit may be better, it gets harder and harder to keep together. Right now seems like society is struggling with keeping stable family units intact.


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15 Nov 2020, 10:21 pm

The family topic is really a part of the culture wars in the US. It really is not an issue, or rather it is an ideological issue driving partisan agendas. If you actually look at public policy you will see the hypocrisy surrounding this. You can see this played out in our child support enforcement program. It is run by States, but depending which State the program is located, it can be housed in the social services department or the attorney general's office, depending on how you view the problem of child support.

But support for the family is one of those warm and fuzzy political topic politicians really like to rally around because it requires no action on their part, but they get to rail on the demise of values.



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15 Nov 2020, 10:27 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
As I wrote in another thread here:

David Brooks, a moderate conservative-leaning writer, has written The Nuclear Family Was a Mistake ("The family structure we’ve held up as the cultural ideal for the past half century has been a catastrophe for many. It’s time to figure out better ways to live together."), The Atlantic, March 2020.


David Brooks is not a great thinker, but he does put together well-crafted fantasies. This caught my eye:

Quote:
The shift from bigger and interconnected extended families to smaller and detached nuclear families ultimately led to a familial system that liberates the rich and ravages the working-class and the poor.


Naturally, it could not have been the Republican neoliberal economic policies instituted by Reagan and Thatcher.



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16 Nov 2020, 4:18 am

magz wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Imagine if there was such a thing as a "thermonuclear" family? :P

Family fusion? :chin:
Probably still better than "unclear" family :mrgreen:


Putin approves.


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16 Nov 2020, 5:44 am

Jiheisho wrote:
The family topic is really a part of the culture wars in the US. It really is not an issue, or rather it is an ideological issue driving partisan agendas. If you actually look at public policy you will see the hypocrisy surrounding this. You can see this played out in our child support enforcement program. It is run by States, but depending which State the program is located, it can be housed in the social services department or the attorney general's office, depending on how you view the problem of child support.

But support for the family is one of those warm and fuzzy political topic politicians really like to rally around because it requires no action on their part, but they get to rail on the demise of values.

I'm not in the US and I'm trying to understand why this particular topic is so hot there.
A stable family with more than one adult supporting each other is definitely good and important.
The one-breadwinner nuclear family is often unaffordable.
Two-parents-working nuclear family leaves too little resources for raising children.
In many cultures, grandparents and other relatives or close friends fix it.
Is it bad?


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16 Nov 2020, 10:19 pm

magz wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
The family topic is really a part of the culture wars in the US. It really is not an issue, or rather it is an ideological issue driving partisan agendas. If you actually look at public policy you will see the hypocrisy surrounding this. You can see this played out in our child support enforcement program. It is run by States, but depending which State the program is located, it can be housed in the social services department or the attorney general's office, depending on how you view the problem of child support.

But support for the family is one of those warm and fuzzy political topic politicians really like to rally around because it requires no action on their part, but they get to rail on the demise of values.

I'm not in the US and I'm trying to understand why this particular topic is so hot there.
A stable family with more than one adult supporting each other is definitely good and important.
The one-breadwinner nuclear family is often unaffordable.
Two-parents-working nuclear family leaves too little resources for raising children.
In many cultures, grandparents and other relatives or close friends fix it.
Is it bad?


There is nothing bad about the extended family. It is a really common structure here. There are nuclear families as well. Those are more to do with economic necessity. Having to move for a job, for example.

As far as two income households, with both parents working, that is a result of economic policy. In the 80's, companies figured that letting women work was a good way to keep labor costs down (the second family income helped pay the bills and companies did not have to raise wages as much if only one person was the bread winner). Families felt richer as there were two incomes. The problem is cost went up so fast that a two income household became a necessity. Now that there is no more room to grow, this is starting to hit industries like higher education that have lots of costs and have a hard time to control them. Families simply cannot afford to spend $50,000 to $60,000 per year for a university degree.

I am not sure there is a big discussion around families in the US. Social conservatives usually bring it up as they are looking for something to blame for what they see as social ills. What they don't what to talk about is their economic policies are the real drivers to these problems. For example, the breakdown of family values was seen as the driver for high crime and incarceration rates in the Black communities, even though it was social policy that was driving it.

Sorry, bit of a rambling reply. "Family values" has been a motif in the cultural wars for a long time, but it is more at the level of talking points, rather than real policy.



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16 Nov 2020, 10:56 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
The family topic is really a part of the culture wars in the US. It really is not an issue, or rather it is an ideological issue driving partisan agendas. If you actually look at public policy you will see the hypocrisy surrounding this. You can see this played out in our child support enforcement program. It is run by States, but depending which State the program is located, it can be housed in the social services department or the attorney general's office, depending on how you view the problem of child support.

But support for the family is one of those warm and fuzzy political topic politicians really like to rally around because it requires no action on their part, but they get to rail on the demise of values.


Well, it's really more of a cultural issue than a political one. The politics part is merely the symptom.



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17 Nov 2020, 5:51 am

Jiheisho wrote:
David Brooks is not a great thinker, but he does put together well-crafted fantasies. This caught my eye:

Quote:
The shift from bigger and interconnected extended families to smaller and detached nuclear families ultimately led to a familial system that liberates the rich and ravages the working-class and the poor.


Naturally, it could not have been the Republican neoliberal economic policies instituted by Reagan and Thatcher.

You don't think both of these things could have a genuinely harmful role?


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