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KT67
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25 Feb 2021, 7:54 am

magz wrote:
Hmmm, my friend bought his fiancee an engangement bicycle... maybe we should promote it more? That can be gender-symmetric.


That's so cool.

I think maybe in general promote 'get a gift the person would actually want'.

Cos not every woman wants a diamond ring.

It just looks tacky on Corrie when they have the big empowering woman proposing to man bit then the frilly romantic gender-normative woman getting a pretty ring bit.


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Fern
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25 Feb 2021, 10:26 am

magz wrote:
KT67 wrote:
I've mentioned it before but the fact that women can propose nowadays but nobody has come up with a masculine engagement ring.

So women are basically asking 'I love you, we should do something we both enjoy btw you owe me a present now'.

I think men ought to be able to be given an engagement ring which suits them or another gift & women who propose shouldn't get rings. I think in same gender couples, whoever proposes shouldn't get the ring, the proposee should be given one or a similar gift they'd like.

Hmmm, my friend bought his fiancee an engangement bicycle... maybe we should promote it more? That can be gender-symmetric.


I dunno. I've been proposed to twice (by different men) and no one offered me anything other than love and commitment (It didn't work out, but for unrelated reasons). I kind of hate jewelry though, so that is fine with me. A bike sounds cool.



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25 Feb 2021, 3:12 pm

I like jewellery so it would work for me. I prefer sapphires to diamonds though.


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KT67
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26 Feb 2021, 6:58 am

Fern wrote:
magz wrote:
KT67 wrote:
I've mentioned it before but the fact that women can propose nowadays but nobody has come up with a masculine engagement ring.

So women are basically asking 'I love you, we should do something we both enjoy btw you owe me a present now'.

I think men ought to be able to be given an engagement ring which suits them or another gift & women who propose shouldn't get rings. I think in same gender couples, whoever proposes shouldn't get the ring, the proposee should be given one or a similar gift they'd like.

Hmmm, my friend bought his fiancee an engangement bicycle... maybe we should promote it more? That can be gender-symmetric.


I dunno. I've been proposed to twice (by different men) and no one offered me anything other than love and commitment (It didn't work out, but for unrelated reasons). I kind of hate jewelry though, so that is fine with me. A bike sounds cool.


Did they know you hated jewellery?

Or are you from a specific culture where diamond rings for engaged women aren't the norm?


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Fern
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26 Feb 2021, 10:45 am

KT67 wrote:
Fern wrote:
magz wrote:
KT67 wrote:
I've mentioned it before but the fact that women can propose nowadays but nobody has come up with a masculine engagement ring.

So women are basically asking 'I love you, we should do something we both enjoy btw you owe me a present now'.

I think men ought to be able to be given an engagement ring which suits them or another gift & women who propose shouldn't get rings. I think in same gender couples, whoever proposes shouldn't get the ring, the proposee should be given one or a similar gift they'd like.

Hmmm, my friend bought his fiancee an engangement bicycle... maybe we should promote it more? That can be gender-symmetric.


I dunno. I've been proposed to twice (by different men) and no one offered me anything other than love and commitment (It didn't work out, but for unrelated reasons). I kind of hate jewelry though, so that is fine with me. A bike sounds cool.


Did they know you hated jewellery?

Or are you from a specific culture where diamond rings for engaged women aren't the norm?


I am of a culture where jewelry when proposing is the norm, and I don't think either was really thinking about my preference to not wear jewelry. One of the guys when he proposed was like "maybe we should go look at rings later. -but first what's your answer." -I was actually kind of glad he did it that way, because my answer was "no thank you." I would have felt bad if he bought something he'd have trouble returning. In the case of the other, he proposed over a skype call (so he couldn't give me a ring) and I said yes, but then he broke up with me in an email a couple of days later. :lol:

I don't only find men attractive, but I have only been in long relationships with men, so the only people who have proposed to me are men. There are all of these bizarre heterosexual rituals around engagement and marriage that just feel more like pressure than enjoyment though. I am fine with all of that being shaken up. -maybe a really nice drill press would be good, or table saw. I feel like agreeing to share one of those with a partner is a big step and would be far more useful to drop some serious $$$ on.



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26 Feb 2021, 2:48 pm

Fern wrote:
There are all of these bizarre heterosexual rituals around engagement and marriage that just feel more like pressure than enjoyment though. I am fine with all of that being shaken up. -maybe a really nice drill press would be good, or table saw. I feel like agreeing to share one of those with a partner is a big step and would be far more useful to drop some serious $$$ on.

Yes, agreed.


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KT67
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06 Mar 2021, 6:24 am

My fashion thing again about luxury...

Proven by Pinterest.

When you like a pin from men's fashion which is dandyesque type style (how I describe it - lace, velvet, embroidery etc but in a masculine cut & designed for a man) then put 'for less than £100' it shows you mostly female clothing.

But the original item was designed for men and a guy wore it on the catwalk.

Normal men (working class/middle class) can't afford to dress fancy beyond suits and the culture is not doing.


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09 Mar 2021, 4:10 pm

I've never fully understood the whole 'work groups of all men or groups of all women end in disaster' concept. Whilst I can understand the value of having a team with different life experiences and perspectives, I can't say I've ever experienced the whole 'women fight over who is in charge and don't respect a female boss but will take orders from a male one'.

Whenever I've worked in a group I've always respected the leader regardless, unless the person is dangerously inept. I've been in all women groups before and everyone got on with it. There wasn't much fighting and no one tried to replace the leader. I've never been in an all-female group where everyone tried to assert dominance and it descended into drama. Yet when you tell people that you're in an female group the assumption is that you all must be at each other's throats. I think this ties into the gender stereotype of women all hating each other. Perhaps in certain circles of toxic femininity this is the case. I don't actively compete against other women because I have nothing to prove or gain from doing so. My focus is always on completing the task at hand. Her ability to lead is apparent in her actions and I would never assume that I was at the same level of authority as a female boss just because she happens to be a woman, nor would I attempt to overthrow her. :|

...Is this supposed to be about impressing men or something? Internalised misogyny about only men having true power and women's power being debatable? Worrying about being shown up /overlooked somehow because another woman holds power? Frankly I just don't get it. I often feel left out of an experience when I hear women talking about competing with one another because that is something that I simply can't relate to. Still, it sounds like a lot of stress, so probably just as well.


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09 Mar 2021, 4:28 pm

@ Lost_dragon

Is that connected to the weird double standard ideas of gendered groups where men are supposed to be more competitive, but women have more drama? Kind of like that stereotype where men are supposed to be more rational and women more about feelings, but there are a lot of men who just can't hold their temper and act on their emotions when they might irrationally dislike something such as it not feeling "manly". Weird contradictions.


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09 Mar 2021, 7:46 pm

Bradleigh wrote:
@ Lost_dragon

Is that connected to the weird double standard ideas of gendered groups where men are supposed to be more competitive, but women have more drama? Kind of like that stereotype where men are supposed to be more rational and women more about feelings, but there are a lot of men who just can't hold their temper and act on their emotions when they might irrationally dislike something such as it not feeling "manly". Weird contradictions.


The two ideas are likely connected.

Even so, as you pointed out it does seem rather contradictory. If women are supposed to be less competitive, then I think it would be reasonable to assume that they would take a more leisurely approach. Now, if there was a more relaxed less competitive approach being taken by women, then what would be the cause of the drama? I can only assume purely interpersonal issues going on outside of the workplace. This would tie into the stereotype of women being more emotional. However, if they aren't (or merely less so) competitive, then why bring up certain personal topics (which would likely be in order to step on toes / stir trouble) and not discuss them later?

Men are also stereotyped as emotional, albeit in a different way - as showing less nuance but stronger emotions. Such emotions are sometimes presented as more rational or understandable. Bottling up emotions is often a bad idea, but it is useful to learn how to compartmentalize to an extent.


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09 Mar 2021, 8:55 pm

Lost_dragon wrote:
Bradleigh wrote:
@ Lost_dragon

Is that connected to the weird double standard ideas of gendered groups where men are supposed to be more competitive, but women have more drama? Kind of like that stereotype where men are supposed to be more rational and women more about feelings, but there are a lot of men who just can't hold their temper and act on their emotions when they might irrationally dislike something such as it not feeling "manly". Weird contradictions.


The two ideas are likely connected.

Even so, as you pointed out it does seem rather contradictory. If women are supposed to be less competitive, then I think it would be reasonable to assume that they would take a more leisurely approach. Now, if there was a more relaxed less competitive approach being taken by women, then what would be the cause of the drama? I can only assume purely interpersonal issues going on outside of the workplace. This would tie into the stereotype of women being more emotional. However, if they aren't (or merely less so) competitive, then why bring up certain personal topics (which would likely be in order to step on toes / stir trouble) and not discuss them later?

Men are also stereotyped as emotional, albeit in a different way - as showing less nuance but stronger emotions. Such emotions are sometimes presented as more rational or understandable. Bottling up emotions is often a bad idea, but it is useful to learn how to compartmentalize to an extent.


I think the idea might also be that both men and women tend to restrain some of the behaviours that result in those stereotypes of how all male and all female groups behave.

That effect might not be in play if the it's only one person and they're just one of the girls/guys.



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10 Mar 2021, 3:18 pm

That sounds like an extension of the girl group clique idea from school into work. While some female work groups could be like that, it's wrong to say that all of them are. It might also come from TV shows where this kind of thing is present and highly exaggerated, and occurs often.


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18 Mar 2021, 3:03 pm

TV shows need a reason for a woman to be evil.

They don't need a reason for a man to be evil.

Using the eg of 4 villains from Corrie: two male, two female.

The first man was a serial killer just cos he wanted cash.
First woman was broken by her man.
Second woman was abused so she became an abuser.
Second man was a greedy guy who wanted to hurt women. He liked cash and women so he took cash by deceptive means & he raped women.

I could keep going for Coronation Street male and female villains.

Only exception for some reason is Tracy who for some reason gets no consequences. Probably due to her family she can be a murderer & redeemed.

Coronation Street is just an example of this btw. It's all over media I watch.

Woman is a villain? She must've been hurt by a man or desparate for kids or have a tragic back story probably involving a man. Or she's doing it to protect her man or kids.
Man is a villain? What a greedy/rapey/murdering scumbag.

My advice to writers would be: the way women villains are written is good, let men have that much depth & backstory too. Maybe the next abusive man was first broken down by his woman or is doing it because another guy kept taking advantage or something or has had a bad childhood? Play into the 'no more Mr Nice Guy' trope.


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19 Mar 2021, 5:36 am

Looking through my daughters old clothes for things that would fit my son. There were some that my husband didn't want him to wear because they are too girly but he was fine with him wearing a babygrow with "Punk Girl" written on the front :scratch:

KT67 wrote:
TV shows need a reason for a woman to be evil.

I was just thinking recently about the lack of female villains on Corrie, or more the fact that they have too many male ones.
Off topic: Corrie is getting a bit too stressful and story driven recently rather than being funny and character driven which I much prefer.


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19 Mar 2021, 4:11 pm

KT67 wrote:
TV shows need a reason for a woman to be evil.

They don't need a reason for a man to be evil.

Using the eg of 4 villains from Corrie: two male, two female.

The first man was a serial killer just cos he wanted cash.
First woman was broken by her man.
Second woman was abused so she became an abuser.
Second man was a greedy guy who wanted to hurt women. He liked cash and women so he took cash by deceptive means & he raped women.

I could keep going for Coronation Street male and female villains.

Only exception for some reason is Tracy who for some reason gets no consequences. Probably due to her family she can be a murderer & redeemed.

Coronation Street is just an example of this btw. It's all over media I watch.

Woman is a villain? She must've been hurt by a man or desparate for kids or have a tragic back story probably involving a man. Or she's doing it to protect her man or kids.
Man is a villain? What a greedy/rapey/murdering scumbag.

My advice to writers would be: the way women villains are written is good, let men have that much depth & backstory too. Maybe the next abusive man was first broken down by his woman or is doing it because another guy kept taking advantage or something or has had a bad childhood? Play into the 'no more Mr Nice Guy' trope.

Oh now this is interesting. What they need to understand is that there exist many scales and spectra of bad deeds, reasons, methods, etc. Scumbags exist in both genders. (Of course there are other genders, but I'm looking at the binary here.) Those with influence from the past exist in both genders. What you have pointed out is pushing the view that men are naturally as*holes whereas women need something (a man possibly?) to push them into being as*holes. It's sexist against men.
I have a male character who's the antagonist of his narrative. He's not evil exactly. He's a bit fuzzy on the amoral-immoral divide. But he suffered stuff that made him this way. He was horrifically discriminated against and locked away in the basement floors of a building (he's not human so can't die normally) despite not doing anything to harm anyone. His mind went a bit while locked down there. But he's not malicious against anyone for no reason. Only against those he considers trespassers or enemies.
(And while we're on the topic of Corrie, my grandma told me all about Geoff. F*k Geoff. He got what was f*cking coming to him although he did not deserve a funeral.)
Edit: here's a page all about double standards, from a very good site: link


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19 Mar 2021, 8:01 pm

Masculinity is easier to write as evil, since masculinity is usually portrayed as strong, so feminine villains can run the risk of appearing to punch down, an enemy who could come across as weak (especially the hero is male, as most action to some extent heroes are). If a female villain is then made masculine, it can then come across as something like making villains out of masculine women in general. Not that I am at all saying women should not be made villain.

Just remembered something I consider an exception to these sorts of rules, the anime Kill la Kill, the two largest villains are both women, very feminine and as strong as they are evil for absolutely no excusable reason.

Image

Their theme songs are fantastic at showing their characters. Nui Harime's is a personal favourite in general, because I love how it shows this duality as something soft and unassuming, as it slowly introduces the elements that show her as the dangerous and twisted person that she is

Not that Blumenkranz feel like a total ballad of strength and unbending force of will.


I would love more female villains, without making it feel like they might need more of an excuse than a male character, or feel like it is a dig at a non-feminine woman.


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