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magz
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29 Dec 2020, 5:25 am

Split from viewtopic.php?f=21&t=393109&start=256#p8682217

Tempus Fugit wrote:
It seems to me that even an actual "denier" should be able to express their views without it being alright for a couple of members to harangue and flame them.

I sometimes come into a dilemma: how much wrong is against the rules?
At some point, repeating obviously false claims becomes harmful, especially if following advice based on these claims may lead to harmful outcomes.


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Last edited by magz on 29 Dec 2020, 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.: Title changed

Pepe
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29 Dec 2020, 5:28 am

magz wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
It seems to me that even an actual "denier" should be able to express their views without it being alright for a couple of members to harangue and flame them.

I sometimes come into a dilemma: how much wrong is against the rules?
At some point, repeating obviously false claims becomes harmful, especially if following advice based on these claims may lead to harmful outcomes.


Civil dialogue can be used to point out the perceived "wrong".
I think this is the gist of the discussion here. 8)



magz
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29 Dec 2020, 5:30 am

Pepe wrote:
The right to be able to express oneself, presumably without being harangued .
Isn't that the spirit of the concept of freedom of speech? :scratch:
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it."

Let me just quickly say that *I* wouldn't fight to the death for that principle, but I am happy for other to die for that sentiment. :mrgreen:
A comment on the Free Speech principle:
Image
https://xkcd.com/1357/


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magz
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29 Dec 2020, 5:35 am

Pepe wrote:
magz wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
It seems to me that even an actual "denier" should be able to express their views without it being alright for a couple of members to harangue and flame them.

I sometimes come into a dilemma: how much wrong is against the rules?
At some point, repeating obviously false claims becomes harmful, especially if following advice based on these claims may lead to harmful outcomes.

Civil dialogue can be used to point out the perceived "wrong".
I think this is the gist of the discussion here. 8)

Civil dialogue is my ideal, too.
However, it requires all the sides engaged with similar attitude.
Rarely obtainable IRL :(


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Tempus Fugit
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29 Dec 2020, 5:42 am

magz wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
It seems to me that even an actual "denier" should be able to express their views without it being alright for a couple of members to harangue and flame them.

I sometimes come into a dilemma: how much wrong is against the rules?
At some point, repeating obviously false claims becomes harmful, especially if following advice based on these claims may lead to harmful outcomes.


Sometimes toxic tones can't be strictly governed by rules. The toxic atmosphere here is what several members have attributed to them leaving WP. Both on WP and on the forums they transferred to. And there are only a small number of members who chronically dish out said toxicity, as I see it and others have agreed with me, who are among the few members left here. I'll PM you their usernames if you want, if I haven't already.



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29 Dec 2020, 6:13 am

goldfish21 wrote:
@tempus:

Do you realize that the people who’s expertise you’re questioning are not laymen? They’re world renowned experts in their field. Literally the top doctors of epidemiology; qualified to hold their positions in which they advise entire countries what to do during a pandemic. Your questioning of what they’re asking of citizens makes you come across as some kind of anti-science jerk.


That's something you and one other decided about me and then attacked me over. Neither of you attempted to treat me like a human being and simply ask me to clarify my views. And even when I did clarify my views as not being anti-epidemiologist, anti-mask, you chose to toss that aside and continued to be toxic.



Last edited by Tempus Fugit on 29 Dec 2020, 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

magz
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29 Dec 2020, 6:14 am

Tempus Fugit wrote:
Sometimes toxic tones can't be strictly governed by rules. The toxic atmosphere here is what several members have attributed to them leaving WP. Both on WP and on the forums they transferred to. And there are only a small number of members who chronically dish out said toxicity, who are among the few members left here. I'll PM you their usernames if you want, if I haven't already.

I fully respect decision of everyone who left WP for whatever reason. I'm staying in contact with some such people.

I remind you again that you are responsible only for your contributions to WrongPlanet or any other online community.
I'm very strongly campaigning for shifting from "good guys vs bad guys" approach to "good contributions vs bad contributions". Everyone has to watch themself first - yourself included, obviously.


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Tempus Fugit
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29 Dec 2020, 6:20 am

magz wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
Sometimes toxic tones can't be strictly governed by rules. The toxic atmosphere here is what several members have attributed to them leaving WP. Both on WP and on the forums they transferred to. And there are only a small number of members who chronically dish out said toxicity, who are among the few members left here. I'll PM you their usernames if you want, if I haven't already.

I fully respect decision of everyone who left WP for whatever reason. I'm staying in contact with some such people.


I know. Some of them have mentioned it in our private group discussions.

magz wrote:
I remind you again that you are responsible only for your contributions to WrongPlanet or any other online community.
I'm very strongly campaigning for shifting from "good guys vs bad guys" approach to "good contributions vs bad contributions". Everyone has to watch themself first - yourself included, obviously.


I know that I am being held accountable. I'm not so sure about others.



magz
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29 Dec 2020, 6:32 am

Tempus Fugit wrote:
magz wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
Sometimes toxic tones can't be strictly governed by rules. The toxic atmosphere here is what several members have attributed to them leaving WP. Both on WP and on the forums they transferred to. And there are only a small number of members who chronically dish out said toxicity, who are among the few members left here. I'll PM you their usernames if you want, if I haven't already.

I fully respect decision of everyone who left WP for whatever reason. I'm staying in contact with some such people.


I know. They've mentioned it in our private group discussions.
Ugh, you gossip about me? I'm not comfortable hearing that.

Tempus Fugit wrote:
magz wrote:
I remind you again that you are responsible only for your contributions to WrongPlanet or any other online community.
I'm very strongly campaigning for shifting from "good guys vs bad guys" approach to "good contributions vs bad contributions". Everyone has to watch themself first - yourself included, obviously.
I know that I am being held accountable. I'm not so sure about others.
I'm asking you - just as I ask everyone - to hold yourself accountable for everything you post and to make attempts of clarification when you are misinterpreted. I offer you - and everyone - help with setting miscommunications straight.
And I very much oppose the "fight the bad guys" approach, which, unfortunately, you seem to more or less conciously employ.


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Tempus Fugit
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29 Dec 2020, 7:05 am

magz wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
magz wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
Sometimes toxic tones can't be strictly governed by rules. The toxic atmosphere here is what several members have attributed to them leaving WP. Both on WP and on the forums they transferred to. And there are only a small number of members who chronically dish out said toxicity, who are among the few members left here. I'll PM you their usernames if you want, if I haven't already.

I fully respect decision of everyone who left WP for whatever reason. I'm staying in contact with some such people.


I know. They've mentioned it in our private group discussions.
Ugh, you gossip about me? I'm not comfortable hearing that.


Some just mentioned that they had been in corresponce with you and other staff about WP. That was back during the time of the save WP thread Enviro started. Before I returned here.

magz wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
magz wrote:
I remind you again that you are responsible only for your contributions to WrongPlanet or any other online community.
I'm very strongly campaigning for shifting from "good guys vs bad guys" approach to "good contributions vs bad contributions". Everyone has to watch themself first - yourself included, obviously.
I know that I am being held accountable. I'm not so sure about others.
I'm asking you to hold yourself accountable for everything you post and to make attempts of clarification when you are misinterpreted. I offer you - and everyone - help with setting miscommunications straight.
And I very much oppose the "fight the bad guys" approach, which, unfortunately, you seem to more or less conciously employ.


I'm trying. I just don't know if it will be considered good enough, when it comes to a couple of people repeatedly attacking me. I just want to see certain long running toxcisity, like I experinced in this thread, come to an end.



magz
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29 Dec 2020, 7:46 am

Tempus Fugit wrote:
I'm trying. I just don't know if it will be considered good enough, when it comes to a couple of people repeatedly attacking me. I just want to see certain long running toxcisity, like I experinced in this thread, come to an end.
There won't be an end to people misinterpreting you in topics they're emotional about.
What can be done about it is not engaging in fights and learning to walk away from unhealthy situations.
That's a general mental health rule: you can't heal everyone around you. You can set boundaries so they don't drag you into their issues.
From my real life personal experience: it helps everyone involved.


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29 Dec 2020, 8:03 am

magz wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
I'm trying. I just don't know if it will be considered good enough, when it comes to a couple of people repeatedly attacking me. I just want to see certain long running toxcisity, like I experinced in this thread, come to an end.
There won't be an end to people misinterpreting you in topics they're emotional about.
What can be done about it is not engaging in fights and learning to walk away from unhealthy situations.
That's a general mental health rule: you can't heal everyone around you. You can set boundaries so they don't drag you into their issues.
From my real life personal experience: it helps everyone involved.


I'm not going to sit back a let someone post lies about me. I'm not trying to fight, as in fighting fire with fire, but I am going to point out the lies (character assignations) as they occur. The way it's been working is uncommondenominator and goldfish21 attack my character by making stuff up to make me look bad, and then I point out what they're doing. As soon as they stop launching those kinds of attacks, it stops.

Goldfish21 has admitted in this thread more than once that he is flaming me because he thinks I deserve it. And that he plans to keep it up. What do you have to say about that?



magz
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29 Dec 2020, 8:10 am

Tempus Fugit wrote:
magz wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
I'm trying. I just don't know if it will be considered good enough, when it comes to a couple of people repeatedly attacking me. I just want to see certain long running toxcisity, like I experinced in this thread, come to an end.
There won't be an end to people misinterpreting you in topics they're emotional about.
What can be done about it is not engaging in fights and learning to walk away from unhealthy situations.
That's a general mental health rule: you can't heal everyone around you. You can set boundaries so they don't drag you into their issues.
From my real life personal experience: it helps everyone involved.


I'm not going to sit back a let someone post lies about me. I'm not trying to fight, as in fighting fire with fire, but I am going to point out the lies (character assignations) as they occur. The way it's been working is uncommondenominator and goldfish21 attack my character by making stuff up to make me look bad, and then I point out what they're doing. As soon as they stop launching those kinds of attacks, it stops.

Goldfish21 has admitted in this thread more than once that he is flaming me because he thinks I deserve it. And that he plans to keep it up. What do you have to say about that?

Lies or misinterpretations?
Goldfish reacts to what he reads in your posts. Do you attempt to clarify that you didn't mean the things that triggered him?


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Tempus Fugit
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29 Dec 2020, 8:26 am

magz wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
magz wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
I'm trying. I just don't know if it will be considered good enough, when it comes to a couple of people repeatedly attacking me. I just want to see certain long running toxcisity, like I experinced in this thread, come to an end.
There won't be an end to people misinterpreting you in topics they're emotional about.
What can be done about it is not engaging in fights and learning to walk away from unhealthy situations.
That's a general mental health rule: you can't heal everyone around you. You can set boundaries so they don't drag you into their issues.
From my real life personal experience: it helps everyone involved.


I'm not going to sit back a let someone post lies about me. I'm not trying to fight, as in fighting fire with fire, but I am going to point out the lies (character assignations) as they occur. The way it's been working is uncommondenominator and goldfish21 attack my character by making stuff up to make me look bad, and then I point out what they're doing. As soon as they stop launching those kinds of attacks, it stops.

Goldfish21 has admitted in this thread more than once that he is flaming me because he thinks I deserve it. And that he plans to keep it up. What do you have to say about that?

Lies or misinterpretations?
Goldfish reacts to what he reads in your posts. Do you attempt to clarify that you didn't mean the things that triggered him?


What's the difference? Misrepresenting someone is known as bearing false witness against them. Bearing false witness is also known as lying. Yes. Several times. He tosses it aside and keeps going at it. Goldfish21 and Uncommondenominator have made it perfectly clear that they have their minds made up about me, and that nothing I say to them is going to change it. And Goldfish21 told me more than once that if I continue to post "flame-bait" that he's going to continue to flame me. Which I interpret as he's threatening to stalk and harass me.



magz
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29 Dec 2020, 8:30 am

Hmmm, so you see no difference between lying and being wrong?


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29 Dec 2020, 8:47 am

magz wrote:
Hmmm, you see no difference between lying and being wrong?


If I was making stuff up about someone, then I would be saying things about them that are untrue. I don't see how being wrong cancels out saying things that are untrue, bearing false witness against someone, and stating that it will continue. There's no practical way to work out repeated misrepresentation that's delivered in a contemptuous, sarcastic, demeaning, insulting way, as "oh they just misunderstood". <removed> has been at it for weeks in several threads. I'm convinced he knows exactly what he's doing. I would know if I was doing it. That goes for <removed> too.

Is them leaving me alone too much to ask?

Is asking them to stop cranking out toxicity too much to ask?



Last edited by magz on 29 Dec 2020, 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.: Don't attack other users.