Is everything about Britain shameful ?
01 Feb 2021, 3:45 am
PhosphorusDecree wrote:
I'm still proud of Britain's scientific, technological and artistic history, and selected parts of its political, social and military history. I can face up to the bad parts without chucking all the rest away. It always seems to me a bad faith argument when right-wingers say "Well, if you're not proud of the Empire (or the Monarchy or whatever) you have no pride in Britain." Or when left-wingers say "If you have any pride in Britain, that must mean you're happy about every single atrocity in British history." A country is a much bigger concept than those reductive arguments would allow.
It also infuriates me that the way to be a "patriot" nowadays is apparently to lie about your country, and to harm your country and its people while waving a nice big flag. A true patriot would recognise their country's flaws and work to make them better, to build a country that really is worthy of pride for what it does in the present day.
It also infuriates me that the way to be a "patriot" nowadays is apparently to lie about your country, and to harm your country and its people while waving a nice big flag. A true patriot would recognise their country's flaws and work to make them better, to build a country that really is worthy of pride for what it does in the present day.
I think it's fair to say that nearly every culture on earth has historic deeds that are less than savoury and so its hard to make comparisons that put one cultural group as more aggressive or worse than another. Slavery has been practiced all over the world in different regions in different epochs.
I agree with everything you said about Great Britian. I share the awe I have for all the achievements throughout the small island's history. But does that give Britian a free pass to build public monuments to colonial overlords and slave runners? Probably not.
I have said before these statues should be carefully removed (rather than vandalised) and put into the British Museum or Art Gallery where they can be kept free from vandals and pigeons.
The Role of Mr Churchill (in particular) in galvanising the British people during WWII in fighting the Nazis was significant and his speeches stirred the people when the Luftwaffe were bombing civilians in what became the blitz during battle of Britain. While his horrid conduct in India leading to the Bengal famine is a criminal act, Churchill is a complicated character and a product of his time. I think British people have every right to venerate him as a great man.
01 Feb 2021, 3:50 am
chris1989 wrote:
I know Britain has had a history which I am not proud of at all and appalled with including the slave trade. I seem to think some people have gone too far over the past year wanting to tear down statues such as Churchill, whom I am not really a fan of and wanting things renamed such as OBE (Order of the British Empire), which I do think is irrelevant now as we don't still have an empire. I remember seeing a BBC history programme about Britain's slave trade and described people's experiences in a cramped slave ship hold in which people died on the journeys and showed how people were branded and a plantation owners book on the number of floggings they enforced. I was glad the topic was brought up as it does seem like we don't teach enough about it in schools and so on or that it is just ignored about. I think it should be taught about more and talk about those who abolished it like Wilberforce. But I seem to think those people who ashamed of British History want to erase everything even people like abolitionists who wanted to stop and end the terrible suffering while at the same time were still complicit in them and those who are not ashamed focus on one narrative and tend to ignore the terrible stuff. I does irritate me sometimes.
I think the South African "truth and reconciliation" testimonies of experiences of people during Apartheid allowed that country to go through a process of healing. All that it takes for Britain and the US to collectively admit the expansionist empires did cause suffering and deal with the consequences. I think public utterances and acknowledgement would go a long way and would negate the need for financial compensation.
01 Feb 2021, 5:42 am
The taller the structure the longer the shadow it casts.
The British Empire was the biggest empire in history.
It probably did more to improve the world than did any other political entity.
And it probably inflicted more suffering on the world than did any other polity in history.
Its unhealthy to get wrapped up into just one of either side of the balance sheet (jingoism, or self hatred).
Churchill is a good stand in for the whole British Empire- the bad and the good.
Brits may be tearing down his statues over there, but here in the US...all 2020 I (for one) have been wishing Churchill was our President -to lead us through a crises that is comparable to the London Blitz. Instead we had a carnival barker who knew how to sell snake oil, but didnt know how to lead. Niether Trump nor Biden has inspired me to "fight the enemy on the beaches...in the streets...".
01 Feb 2021, 12:21 pm
cyberdad wrote:
PhosphorusDecree wrote:
I'm still proud of Britain's scientific, technological and artistic history, and selected parts of its political, social and military history. I can face up to the bad parts without chucking all the rest away. It always seems to me a bad faith argument when right-wingers say "Well, if you're not proud of the Empire (or the Monarchy or whatever) you have no pride in Britain." Or when left-wingers say "If you have any pride in Britain, that must mean you're happy about every single atrocity in British history." A country is a much bigger concept than those reductive arguments would allow.
It also infuriates me that the way to be a "patriot" nowadays is apparently to lie about your country, and to harm your country and its people while waving a nice big flag. A true patriot would recognise their country's flaws and work to make them better, to build a country that really is worthy of pride for what it does in the present day.
It also infuriates me that the way to be a "patriot" nowadays is apparently to lie about your country, and to harm your country and its people while waving a nice big flag. A true patriot would recognise their country's flaws and work to make them better, to build a country that really is worthy of pride for what it does in the present day.
I think it's fair to say that nearly every culture on earth has historic deeds that are less than savoury and so its hard to make comparisons that put one cultural group as more aggressive or worse than another. Slavery has been practiced all over the world in different regions in different epochs.
I agree with everything you said about Great Britian. I share the awe I have for all the achievements throughout the small island's history. But does that give Britian a free pass to build public monuments to colonial overlords and slave runners? Probably not.
I have said before these statues should be carefully removed (rather than vandalised) and put into the British Museum or Art Gallery where they can be kept free from vandals and pigeons.
The Role of Mr Churchill (in particular) in galvanising the British people during WWII in fighting the Nazis was significant and his speeches stirred the people when the Luftwaffe were bombing civilians in what became the blitz during battle of Britain. While his horrid conduct in India leading to the Bengal famine is a criminal act, Churchill is a complicated character and a product of his time. I think British people have every right to venerate him as a great man.
I didn't really know much about Edward Colston until I saw those people tear down his statue in Bristol, I did find that he did indeed make a lot of money out of the Atlantic Slave Trade. I heard they wanted to do the same to Baden-Powell as well and it made me think ''What did he have to do with slavery ? as I thought he was a scout founder''. I just seem to think that people want to take every statue down simply because they may have said something in the past that might be offensive today, or did something that was forgotton about and the good achievements overshadowed that like Winston Churchill who is known everywhere for his defiance against Hitler and proved a strong leader and yet there are other aspects of his life which were controversial such as the Bengal famine and his heavy-handiness against miners and authorised the firebombing of Dresden even when all sides were bombing each other when in War it was inevitable and he seemed like he was a Victorian living in the 20th Century whose attitude was discriminatory to things he didn't understand especially when Gandhi paid a visit to London and was disgusted by his ''half-naked'' appearance when it was Gandhi's hindu custom.
01 Feb 2021, 1:54 pm
chris1989 wrote:
I know Britain has had a history which I am not proud of at all and appalled with including the slave trade. I seem to think some people have gone too far over the past year wanting to tear down statues such as Churchill, whom I am not really a fan of and wanting things renamed such as OBE (Order of the British Empire), which I do think is irrelevant now as we don't still have an empire. I remember seeing a BBC history programme about Britain's slave trade and described people's experiences in a cramped slave ship hold in which people died on the journeys and showed how people were branded and a plantation owners book on the number of floggings they enforced. I was glad the topic was brought up as it does seem like we don't teach enough about it in schools and so on or that it is just ignored about. I think it should be taught about more and talk about those who abolished it like Wilberforce. But I seem to think those people who ashamed of British History want to erase everything even people like abolitionists who wanted to stop and end the terrible suffering while at the same time were still complicit in them and those who are not ashamed focus on one narrative and tend to ignore the terrible stuff. I does irritate me sometimes.
Countries are not shameful, the thing throughout history that has made things seem shameful is greed and domination in all of it's forms, for example, in modern times big corporations are taking over the world, not just Britain.
02 Feb 2021, 1:50 am
chris1989 wrote:
I didn't really know much about Edward Colston until I saw those people tear down his statue in Bristol, I did find that he did indeed make a lot of money out of the Atlantic Slave Trade. I heard they wanted to do the same to Baden-Powell as well and it made me think ''What did he have to do with slavery ? as I thought he was a scout founder''. I just seem to think that people want to take every statue down simply because they may have said something in the past that might be offensive today, or did something that was forgotton about and the good achievements overshadowed that like Winston Churchill who is known everywhere for his defiance against Hitler and proved a strong leader and yet there are other aspects of his life which were controversial such as the Bengal famine and his heavy-handiness against miners and authorised the firebombing of Dresden even when all sides were bombing each other when in War it was inevitable and he seemed like he was a Victorian living in the 20th Century whose attitude was discriminatory to things he didn't understand especially when Gandhi paid a visit to London and was disgusted by his ''half-naked'' appearance when it was Gandhi's hindu custom.
I think people need to weigh the pros and cons of acknowledging their history in their own conscience. I'm not British or American so I can't stop a Brit from feeling pride for Churchill or a American feeling pride in Washington or Jefferson. However do you glorify/deify the persona of these people in public spaces? Clearly these statues standing in public squares trigger trauma in people who's ancestors were victims of these men. I think museums is where they belong.
02 Feb 2021, 7:53 am
I am disgusted by the British government. We're getting COVID variants from other countries because our government are not shutting the borders and people are coming in and out of the country carrying these news strains that are killing so many people. The UK should close the borders like Australia has. If the government cared that much about saving lives then they would shut the borders and not let anyone in or out. There are STILL rich people going on holiday, in a pandemic! WTF???
_________________
Female
02 Feb 2021, 12:29 pm
Joe90 wrote:
I am disgusted by the British government. We're getting COVID variants from other countries because our government are not shutting the borders and people are coming in and out of the country carrying these news strains that are killing so many people. The UK should close the borders like Australia has. If the government cared that much about saving lives then they would shut the borders and not let anyone in or out. There are STILL rich people going on holiday, in a pandemic! WTF???
This is what happens when toilet paper gets elected as an MP.
02 Feb 2021, 1:13 pm
Human Race has been around for many Thousands of Years. Moral and cultural standards have changed over the many years.
What was once considered normal, in other times, is considered inappropriate / immoral, discrimination etc.
Times change, people's perceptions change.
The British Empire, by our modern perceptual standards, are guilty of all sorts of crimes.
Although, i would say that if you looked at every societies / civilisations behaviours over time, you surely
will find crimes of their own making.
I am not saying that I approve of slaving. I do not approve of cannibalism, genocide, rape, theft etc.
If you looked at every human beings heritage, and had a time machine to see the history of each race/nation/society/civilisation and applied our present perception of what is acceptable behaviour and what is not.
You would likely have to make everyone on the planet spend their entire lives apologizing to everyone else, for the crimes of their ancestors, who they have never met.
It would be ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, i don't have a problem with people hating some of the worst offenders,
such as slavers, pirates and mass murderers.
But i think that minor discrepancies should be left as that.
Let the punishment fit the crime.
He who is free of sin, cast the first stone.
Before pointing the finger accusing others of having a splinter in their eye, make sure you don't have a plank in your own? (or words to the same meaning).
