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funeralxempire
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23 Jun 2021, 1:05 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well it was mentioned before about how the actresses are abused sometimes, and yes I agree that is bad. But what if I am watching a movie with sexualized female characters, and the actresses were not abused. Is it okay then, or is it still not okay?


I think you're breaking it down in an overly black-and-white way; there's more nuance to it than you're seeming to appreciate.

No one's saying one should never partake in entertainment where female characters are sexualized. That's an individual choice.

What is being questioned is what social attitudes drive that sort of entertainment and what social attitudes are driven by that sort of entertainment. What sort of work environment does that represent and how much agency do the participants actually have vs. how much do outside pressures contribute to working in those roles.

People express discomfort, other people feel empathy and respond to those opinions by trying to change how they work going forward. As some of those issues are resolved it should create a healthier work environment for everyone, meaning if you want to enjoy entertainment of that sort you can feel more comfortable knowing everyone involved felt comfortable producing it.


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23 Jun 2021, 1:11 pm

Oh yes, that makes total sense, but the woke generation wants to get rid of that entertainment entirely, as you just don't see it hardly anymore, and Hollywood is becoming more and more afraid to make entertainment for that audience.

So it's not that they want to feel safe making it, it's that they feel they cannot make it at all because of woke pressure.

But another thing is, it seems like people offended by female characters being sexualized, even if there was no behind the scenes mistreatment. Scarlet Johannson recently talked about how she felt bad about playing Black Widow saying she felt the character was too sexualized. But she never talked about if she was badly mistreated or abused when making it. It seems that she wasn't and this wasn't the case, or she never mentioned it. She just said how she felt bad about playing a sexualized character.

So if the exception to the rule is, it's bad for actresses to play those characters because they suffer from mistreatment and abuse, then why is she complaining about it, if she never mentions how she suffered any?



funeralxempire
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23 Jun 2021, 2:47 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh yes, that makes total sense, but the woke generation wants to get rid of that entertainment entirely, as you just don't see it hardly anymore, and Hollywood is becoming more and more afraid to make entertainment for that audience.

So it's not that they want to feel safe making it, it's that they feel they cannot make it at all because of woke pressure.

But another thing is, it seems like people offended by female characters being sexualized, even if there was no behind the scenes mistreatment. Scarlet Johannson recently talked about how she felt bad about playing Black Widow saying she felt the character was too sexualized. But she never talked about if she was badly mistreated or abused when making it. It seems that she wasn't and this wasn't the case, or she never mentioned it. She just said how she felt bad about playing a sexualized character.

So if the exception to the rule is, it's bad for actresses to play those characters because they suffer from mistreatment and abuse, then why is she complaining about it, if she never mentions how she suffered any?


I think it's an overstatement to insist 'the woke generation' all agree on any one matter.


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23 Jun 2021, 4:00 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh yes, that makes total sense, but the woke generation wants to get rid of that entertainment entirely, as you just don't see it hardly anymore, and Hollywood is becoming more and more afraid to make entertainment for that audience.

So it's not that they want to feel safe making it, it's that they feel they cannot make it at all because of woke pressure.

But another thing is, it seems like people offended by female characters being sexualized, even if there was no behind the scenes mistreatment. Scarlet Johannson recently talked about how she felt bad about playing Black Widow saying she felt the character was too sexualized. But she never talked about if she was badly mistreated or abused when making it. It seems that she wasn't and this wasn't the case, or she never mentioned it. She just said how she felt bad about playing a sexualized character.

So if the exception to the rule is, it's bad for actresses to play those characters because they suffer from mistreatment and abuse, then why is she complaining about it, if she never mentions how she suffered any?


I think it's an overstatement to insist 'the woke generation' all agree on any one matter.


Well it's enough of a general consensus to impact the industry decisions.



funeralxempire
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23 Jun 2021, 4:05 pm

ironpony wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh yes, that makes total sense, but the woke generation wants to get rid of that entertainment entirely, as you just don't see it hardly anymore, and Hollywood is becoming more and more afraid to make entertainment for that audience.

So it's not that they want to feel safe making it, it's that they feel they cannot make it at all because of woke pressure.

But another thing is, it seems like people offended by female characters being sexualized, even if there was no behind the scenes mistreatment. Scarlet Johannson recently talked about how she felt bad about playing Black Widow saying she felt the character was too sexualized. But she never talked about if she was badly mistreated or abused when making it. It seems that she wasn't and this wasn't the case, or she never mentioned it. She just said how she felt bad about playing a sexualized character.

So if the exception to the rule is, it's bad for actresses to play those characters because they suffer from mistreatment and abuse, then why is she complaining about it, if she never mentions how she suffered any?


I think it's an overstatement to insist 'the woke generation' all agree on any one matter.


Well it's enough of a general consensus to impact the industry decisions.


It makes sense if a type of entertainment is declining in popularity (and thus consumption) that less of it would be made though, right?

If more people aren't comfortable with art that deals with a specific topic less art of that type will sell so they'll respond by pivoting to selling what people do want to consume.


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23 Jun 2021, 4:08 pm

Oh okay, but why are more people less comfortable with a female character that may be considered sexualized? It was said before that there is still an audience for that, if that's true.



funeralxempire
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23 Jun 2021, 4:21 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, but why are more people less comfortable with a female character that may be considered sexualized? It was said before that there is still an audience for that, if that's true.


There's still an audience but it's a smaller audience.

There's lots of reasons why this is, a few were brought up earlier.


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23 Jun 2021, 4:27 pm

Oh okay, but you don't seem to see filmmakers even make movies for this smaller audience anymore in Hollywood, unless I have just missed those movies coming out the last few years?



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23 Jun 2021, 4:52 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Even if you pretend the "Angels" contained no feminist themes, and was only ever focused on T&A, then it's still political as presenting women as nothing but sex objects is clearly political.


Is the political element that you identified circumstantial rather than strategic? wasn't the primary goal to draw a bigger male audience?

By the same token I'm sure lingerie football is popular with straight men but the skills of the players isn't the reason why they pay their cable subscription.



funeralxempire
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23 Jun 2021, 5:36 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, but you don't seem to see filmmakers even make movies for this smaller audience anymore in Hollywood, unless I have just missed those movies coming out the last few years?


Maybe they're coming out of smaller studios since Hollywood doesn't do a good job of serving niche markets or receiving less marketing money because when Hollywood does serve niche markets they often don't invest heavily.


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23 Jun 2021, 6:08 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh yes, that makes total sense, but the woke generation wants to get rid of that entertainment entirely, as you just don't see it hardly anymore, and Hollywood is becoming more and more afraid to make entertainment for that audience.

The question is are the studios being intimidated out of making a substantial profit or is the audience is just not there anymore for sexist movies? Most movies are made for younger audiences the “woke generation”.


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23 Jun 2021, 6:12 pm

Well I didn't think that movies for female characters that were sexualized automatically means sexist though. Plus women watch those movies too and TV shows too, so I didn't think a lot of women would like them if they thought they were sexist.



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23 Jun 2021, 6:31 pm

cyberdad wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Even if you pretend the "Angels" contained no feminist themes, and was only ever focused on T&A, then it's still political as presenting women as nothing but sex objects is clearly political.


Is the political element that you identified circumstantial rather than strategic? wasn't the primary goal to draw a bigger male audience?

By the same token I'm sure lingerie football is popular with straight men but the skills of the players isn't the reason why they pay their cable subscription.


No, but it is probably more implicit than overt.

As I've already stated several times, the preferences and POV of white cishet men is baked into our culture to the point that it's taken for granted that it's "normal," and anything that doesn't appeal to white cishet males is "abnormal."


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funeralxempire
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23 Jun 2021, 6:33 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well I didn't think that movies for female characters that were sexualized automatically means sexist though. Plus women watch those movies too and TV shows too, so I didn't think a lot of women would like them if they thought they were sexist.


People internalize attitudes. Women watching movies that could be described as sexist is less surprising than Enrique Tario leading a white nationalist organization.


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23 Jun 2021, 6:41 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
As I've already stated several times, the preferences and POV of white cishet men is baked into our culture to the point that it's taken for granted that it's "normal," and anything that doesn't appeal to white cishet males is "abnormal."


Ahh yes, so normalised to the point that its hard to extricate the dictates of old white men weaved into the fabric of our western society from individual choice/free will.

So hypothetically I am watching Charlies Angels and contributing to the perpetuation of objectifying women's bodies for the purpose of maintaining the normality of white male social/cultural privilege.

So true feminist media must be iconoclastic given we have yet to remove the framework of white cishet male dominance in our society.

Will be a challenge



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23 Jun 2021, 6:43 pm

Well just because I used Charlie's Angels as an example, that doesn't mean it's a good one. I just used the recent movie as going woke, compared to the old series. But why not watch a better movie with a sexualized female character?