White privilege isn't real - Jordan Peterson

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Pepe
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18 Feb 2021, 11:44 pm


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19 Feb 2021, 8:52 am

He correctly notes that people vary along lots of other dimensions besides just race, gender, sexual orientation, etc., and he asks why only some of these dimensions are a focus of intersectionality theory.

My answer: The dimensions that get focused on are the ones for which organized civil rights movements exist. That should be no surprise, because the very idea of "intersectionality" arose in the context of organized civil rights movements, specifically among black feminists. (See What is intersectionality, and what does it have to do with me?).

About the concept of "privilege" (as in "white privilege" and "male privilege"): He claims this concept originated in a paper titled “White Privilege and Male Privilege: A Personal Account of Coming to See Correspondences Through Work in Women’s Studies.” Googling this, I found that this essay was written by Peggy McIntosh, a women’s-studies scholar at Wellesley, who wrote the above-mentioned essay in 1988. But the idea of "privilege" is actually much older. I remember seeing it in feminist and LGBT-rights newspapers back in around 1980, when I was in college.

Some earlier uses of the term are documented on this page, which also mentions Peggy McIntosh's essay and credits it NOT with originating the idea of "privilege" but with "helping to transport the concept of privilege from academic circles into popular consciousness"

I'm not familiar enough with "women's studies" in general to respond to most of his criticisms thereof. I know more about feminism as a political movement.


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19 Feb 2021, 9:31 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
... I'm not familiar enough with "women's studies" in general to respond to most of his criticisms thereof. I know more about feminism as a political movement.
Peterson says that "disciplines like women's studies should be defunded", advising freshman students to avoid subjects like sociology, anthropology, English literature, ethnic studies, and racial studies, as well as other fields of study that he believes are corrupted by "post-modern neo-Marxists".

He comes across as just another racist, sexist, homophobic, wealthy white male.


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kraftiekortie
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19 Feb 2021, 9:45 am

When somebody speaks of "neo-liberals," "neo-Marxists," "globalists," and plain old "liberals," I get the impression that this person is right-leaning, and really doesn't care for diversity too much.

A person who uses "globalist" scares me even more; that term is frequently used by "alt-right" sorts of people.



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19 Feb 2021, 9:58 am

The only real link between Marxism and the wide array of social movements and schools of thought that Peterson associates with "Post-modern neo-Marxism" is that they all feature complaints about the existence of various forms of oppression.  The idea seems to be that since Marxists think workers are oppressed due to their economic position and feminists think that women are oppressed due to their position in a gender hierarchy, the latter is a "version" of the former; but if thinking that one group is unjustly exercising power over another makes one a "Marxist," then Marxism predates the birth of Karl Marx by pretty much all of human history.  Spartacus, for example, was a Marxist by this standard; so was everyone involved in the American and French Revolutions; and so were the authors of the Book of Exodus.

Mr. Peterson seems to have constructed a "Strawman" and named it "Post-modern neo-Marxism" just so that he has something to trot out to represent everything he hates (i.e., equal rights, liberty and justice for all, et cetera).


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19 Feb 2021, 10:32 am

Fnord wrote:
Mr. Peterson seems to have constructed a "Strawman" and named it "Post-modern neo-Marxism" just so that he has something to trot out to represent everything he hates (i.e., equal rights, liberty and justice for all, et cetera).[/color]

He's probably against FORCED equality.


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19 Feb 2021, 10:35 am

TheRobotLives wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Mr. Peterson seems to have constructed a "Strawman" and named it "Post-modern neo-Marxism" just so that he has something to trot out to represent everything he hates (i.e., equal rights, liberty and justice for all, et cetera).
He's probably against FORCED equality.
If so, then we can further speculate that if he is not forced to treat people equally, he will choose not to.


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19 Feb 2021, 10:37 am

It's funny how Peterson uses as examples how women are multi-orgasmic (or can be) and how that could be a dimension to be considered in intersectionality.

Obviously, Peterson is a hack, because there is one dimension he does his utmost to NEVER mention: wealth.
Because there are people who consider that the major division between people.
They're called Marxists.


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19 Feb 2021, 10:40 am

1. The fact that the media and academia constantly say that white privilege is real, and bad, and needs to be tackled is self-contradictory. If white privilege was as real as the media and academia says it is, then the media and academia would not be allowed to say what they do about it.

2. The idea that people with privilege have some obligation to give it away to whoever comes along and moans about it is a scam anyway. I could go to China and moan about how many positions of power are filled by Chinese people, and it doesn't mean they'd have some obligation to listen to me.

3. One can understand how the idea of white privilege has spread in a place like America, but it's even being pushed in placed like Ireland. See https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/whit ... -1.2835557

4. Jordan Peterson is what is known as a gatekeeper. He serves to re-direct rightist discontent with the status quo into harmless channels. As evidence for this, take the fact that his videos have been heavily promoted by YouTube since day one, and are still being promoted despite the recent mass censorship there. He has even worked for the United Nations, despite any criticisms he's ever made about "globalism". But I suppose he's still too extreme for some of the posters around here.



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19 Feb 2021, 10:42 am

Fnord wrote:

He comes across as just another racist, sexist, homophobic, wealthy white male.[/color]


What a lot of adjectives you've strung together there. Well done!

Are you a white male yourself? If you could let us know your ethnic background, I'm sure you won't mind people making reference to it occasionally in future.



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19 Feb 2021, 10:52 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
When somebody speaks of "neo-liberals," "neo-Marxists," "globalists," and plain old "liberals," I get the impression that this person is right-leaning, and really doesn't care for diversity too much.

A person who uses "globalist" scares me even more; that term is frequently used by "alt-right" sorts of people.


Neoliberalism is actually a theory of economic order, designed after ww1 and implemented from the 70s onward, beginning with Reagan.
From Reagan to Obama, every single US President was neoliberal - that's why people claim there's actually not that much of a difference between Democrats and Republicans (at least in terms of economic ideas).
The EU is structurally neoliberal.
It's a name the neoliberals gave themselves, but it has become a bit of a slur, used by lefties.
The alt-righters call them globalists, but they mean largely the same.

With liberals it's different, it could refer either to a social attitude - then it's used by both left and right.
It could also refer to Liberalism, the progenitor of neoliberalism.
You'll find that alt-righters like to call themselves 'classical liberals' these days.

I don't know what a neo-Marxist is, I think that's a word alt-righters came up with that sounds menacing.

Post-modern neo-marxist is definitely a name made up by the alt-right. It makes about as much sense as calling someone a 'modern medieval person'. But it's definitely meant to create an enemy, like the Nazis created en enemy they called culture-Bolsheviks.


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19 Feb 2021, 10:53 am

slam_thunderhide wrote:
Fnord wrote:
He comes across as just another racist, sexist, homophobic, wealthy white male.[/color]
What a lot of adjectives you've strung together there. Well done!  Are you a white male yourself? If you could let us know your ethnic background, I'm sure you won't mind people making reference to it occasionally in future.


:lol:


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19 Feb 2021, 11:18 am

If You Are a White Person...

... And if a traffic cop pulls you over or if the IRS audits your tax return, you can be sure you have not been singled out because of your race.

... And if you declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there is not a racial issue at hand, your race will lend you more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

... And if you have low credibility as a leader, you can be sure that your race will not be blamed.

... And if you should need to move, you can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which you can afford and in which you would want to live.

... And if you sit at the defendant’s table in court with a person of another race, you can be assured that someone will mistake you for the lawyer (unless you already are a lawyer).

... And if your day, week, or year is going badly, you need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

... When you are told about your national heritage or about "civilization," you are shown that people of your color made it what it is.

... Whether you use checks, credit cards, or cash, you can count on your skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

... You are never asked to speak for all the people of your racial group.

... You are not made acutely aware that your shape, bearing, or body odor will be taken as a reflection on your race.

... You can arrange to protect your children most of the time from people who might not like them.

... You can arrange your activities so that you will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to your race.

... You can avoid spending time with people whom you were trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust you or your kind.

... You can be casual about whether to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

... You can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on your entire race.

... You can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with you and advise you about your next steps, professionally.

... You can be pretty sure of having your voice heard in a group in which you are the only member of your race.

... You can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize yours.

... You can be pretty sure that if you argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost you heavily within your present setting, even if your colleagues disagree with you.

... You can be pretty sure that if you ask to talk to the "person in charge", you will be facing a person of your race.

... You can be pretty sure that your children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; your chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

... You can be pretty sure that your neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to you.

... You can be sure that if you need legal or medical help, your race will not work against you.

... You can be sure that your children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

... You can choose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them closely match your skin.

... You can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of your race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places you have chosen.

... You can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, you can find ways to be protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

... You can criticize your government and talk about how much you fear its policies and behavior without being a cultural outsider.

... You can do well in a challenging situation without being called "A credit to your race".

... You can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children's magazines featuring people of your race.

... You can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of your race.

... You can expect figurative language and imagery in all the arts to testify to experiences of your race.

... You can go home from most meetings of organizations you belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

... You can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of your race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with your cultural traditions, or into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut your hair.

... You can go shopping alone most of the time, well assured that you will not be followed or harassed by store employees or security people.

... You can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in your culture any penalty for such oblivion.

... You can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting your race on trial.

... You can swear, or dress in secondhand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of your race.

... You can take a job with an Affirmative Action employer without having your co-workers on the job suspect that you got it because of your race.

... You can talk with your mouth full and not have people put this down to your color.

... You can think over many options, social, political, imaginative, or professional, without asking whether a person of your race would be accepted or allowed to do what you want to do.

... You can travel alone or with your spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with you.

... You can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of your race widely represented.

... You can worry about racism without being perceived as self-interested or self-seeking.

... You can, if you wish, arrange to be in the company of people of your race most of the time.

... You do not have to educate your children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

... You have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of your household.

... You will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

... Your children are given texts and classes which implicitly support your kind of family unit and do not turn them against your choice of domestic partnership.

... Your culture gives you little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.


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Last edited by Fnord on 19 Feb 2021, 12:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

aghogday
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19 Feb 2021, 11:41 am





'Poor Little Soul'; So Dam Smart With No 'Common Sense';
Yes, No Emotional Intelligence to 'Speak of' And So Hard

to Watch as Obviously A Tortured Soul Looking

For A Cure to Impress A 'Butthurt' Similar

'Incel' Audience of 'Boys' who Have

Never Become 'Men' Based

On Their Own Strength;

Yes, Emotional Strength Within...

The Train Wreck Came And Now 'He'

Is Trying Still To Pick Up the Pieces He Never Found....

Ivory Towers

And All the

Facts And Figures

Ain't Gonna Cure what he's still

Lacking, Emotional Regulation and

Sensory Integration; No Facts And Figures alone;

Looking Within And Becoming a Maturer Soul

In Mind And (YeS HeART/SPiRiT)

Body Balance Whole...

'The Dude' is So 'Stuck

In His Head', He can't possibly

Rise out of the Quicksand Until he does...

Other than that

'White Privilege'

Exists as it has in the

United States Since Slavery;

Perhaps Not So Much in the

Ivory Towers Where 'He' was Schooled And Schools

In Canada; Yet Obviously A Third Grader in Some Areas

Of the Country Here can Figure out That 'Bloody Truth' for Real....

Why?

Emotional

Intelligence...

The Place of Smarts

That Doesn't Lead to 'Train-wrecks of Soul';

Obviously, What Led 'Him' to the Field of Psychology;

Trying to find the Answers in Facts and Figures and Words

When the Answers Actually Come Non-Verbal First totally Within.....

Perhaps in
A Dance

And Song

Babling

Whirling

Free With

No Logic at All...

Until Night Becomes Day
And 'Sun' Always Rises Within

To Warm The World Everywhere 'IT' goes...

Yet Now We aRe in the Realm

Of Soul, So Far Beyond Just

Tight Neo-Cortical

Control,

So Afraid

of the

Chaos that

Will Better

Become Magic of Art Free...

It's True Like My Psychotherapist

And Psychiatrist Said After i conquered

All My Demons With a Staycation of Heaven

Within Now Since July 19, 2013; There Are Some

Intelligences That Are off all Charts So What Do You FEEL

Will
Help

This Patient

i Have while i pay

Them to give them advice...

Of Course i have Asperger's

Syndrome and Bi-Polar Disorder;

'The Science' of it, Says i could back to 'Hell' too;

Yet Again, there are some intelligences beyond

All Chartered Territory of Before; the

Intelligence

of Soul

With Wings

No Longer
Grounded in Concrete Shoes....

i've Watched 'Him' Make Good Faith
Efforts to Find 'this Intelligence' Within;

Yet 'He' gets Lost in the Adulation from
Folks who have the same issue he has

And only

Spirals

Down

The Hole

Where Demons Fear to Tread...

The Place A Drowning 'Rat' Seeks to Escape...

How would i know; Been there done it; All in my SHades of Hell....

It's True, Now i Have 'Soul Privilege'; Yet It's Also True, i have 'White Privilege';

i Can Dance Anywhere in Public and Get Away with it as i Look Like

i Can easily

Hit a Home

Run for the

First Baptist Softball

Team on off-duty Hours
From a Law-Enforcement Job;

True, Just because the way i
Look; so Many People thought

i was getting paid to Dance in
Endless Spirals in Public With
The Shades on and Ear Buds

To Catch A Thief Taking Walmart
Cr8p, so the other Customers

Will Have More Room in their
Double Car Garages and less
to sell in the Next Garage Sell...

Oh Lord,

Just So Much

Heaven; Oh Lord,

Just So Much Heaven

With a Free Dance and

Song and No Facts and Figures at all...

'That Dude' needs to find a Better School.... (Within)

And Yes of Course i Have 'Physical Privilege' in 'Size' and

'Strength' at 243 Pounds of up to 1520 Pounds of Leg Pressing

Power at Hand and Feet; Yet Just Imagine if i was a Black Dude that

Size and that Strong; Would that Give me Any More Privilege; Go Figure

What

Privilege

Is; Try it out for size...

At Least in 'Trump Town USA'....

Nope, 'At The Club' It would be Prized

Black or White; Obviously This is A Cultural

Issue alone; And Frigging White Privilege is a

Metaphor, Not literally "JUST THE MELATONIN OF SKIN"

YES, in 'the Club' Where Black Dudes

Display Fearless Confidence

They Are Getting

Most of the

Attention 'these

Days' for Girls looking For 'Real Men'...

Who are Tired of 'White Dudes' 'Limping' out of 'School'....

Sure, 'You' Better Believe there is a Metaphor for "Black Privilege" too...

And For the 'Incels'

of the World

They will Be

Well off more

to take a lesson or two

That Not all Intelligence

Is just Facts and Figures for real...

Of course it's true; i used to be A 'Nerdy White Boy' too...

Fair and Balanced Coverage; Ya get out of the Ivory Towers once

in A While and Become a Real Participant Anthropology Observer to Catch

'the HeART' Beat 'of the Town'....

By The Way,

'The Dude' who

Doesn't Believe

There is 'White

Privilege' has shown

Yes, Much Respect for

Folks On the Autism

Spectrum; Hmm... Wonder why...

Hehe, 'The Boy Ain't too Fly'; someone

made fun of me about that when i was

in the Working World and i thought of Course i can't fly....

Hmm...

Live and Fly

Fall and Rise...

There is Probably a Song for this too...

That i will Surely Relate too in Both ways....

My God 'That Dude' is Wound Up So Dam Tight...

Just Waiting to Unravel As 'He' Surely Did; God's Speed

on continuing recovery...

For 'Him' too...

Hmm.... 'Couldn't

'Find'

'The Prayer Emoji'... Either...

Yes, There was A Day Long ago

i would Have got a Surge Protector

For my Wife for Her Birthday..

Now i am

'Electricity'

A Power

Surge Everyday....

Yes Now She Does

Require A Surge Protector.. hehe...

i still 'S8CK', i Gave Her all the Money and Let her buy her own gifts...

i Give Her Poetry, i Give Her Dance; Yet That's Not Her Thing

And She Scores 32 on the AQ Scan and i score 11...

She's Not diagnosed

With

Anything

Yet beautiful

And of Course i don't

Need to Worship 'God' When 'She' is (always) home....

See What i mean; it's not always facts and figures; it's not always 'stuff' that counts most...

Some folks Develop A Special Kind of Warmth and Light That Brings Spring to Every Winter Room...

People Tell

Us We Both

Have it;

'Heaven

Privilege' to Spread

without effort for real in 'real life' now...

It didn't cost a dime; it has no School; Yet Breath now (love/god)....

And if 'You' Don't Believe it is Really a fountain of Youth; wait a few Years
More and 'See' 'What' 'We' 'Prove next'....

as

usual....

Note: Not Something

You 'See' With Your Eyes;

Not Something You will

Ever learn in A Lecture to really BREaTHE

NoW Only A Privilege of Within Always Earned (Love) Now...

Each

Person

To Seek And Find For Real
to Give and Share For Free

"Giving Privilege" Indeed With SMiles..

And Yes 'that' 'Fearless Black Privilege' Helps too...

From a Little
'Rough and

Tumble Play'

Now and then too;

The 'Dude' 'up there'

Isn't all wrong or all right...

i exclude no View or Opinion DarK Thru LiGHT

For NoW THere is Always Wheat and Chaff to Reap in all Souls Still SoWinG....



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19 Feb 2021, 12:51 pm

I think white privilege is certainly a real thing, but it's only one of a multitude of complex factors in the social hierarchy. The issue is much more complicated than popular intersectional feminists want us to think.



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19 Feb 2021, 12:53 pm

dorkseid wrote:
I think white privilege is certainly a real thing, but it's only one of a multitude of complex intersectional factors in society. The issue is much more complicated than popular intersectional feminists want us to think.
White Privilege is an issue of race, while feminism is an issue of biological sex.

Why do you conflate the two?

Are you trying to divert the topic of this thread?

Was the thread you started on feminism going nowhere?


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