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IsabellaLinton
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20 Dec 2021, 10:29 am

Thanks Angel.

I had no idea what a "CRT lens" was when you first said it, but I still thought it meant "I'm only saying this because I believe in CRT, so that's how I view the world when I respond to you. " Then your answers just kept going back and forth such that even if I wasn't in the conversation I didn't understand your point-of-view.

Classic case of me being naive, not understanding when people are joking, and not being able to catch subtext or political innuendo. I guess it also reminds me why I hate politics so much -- I'm very literal and take words at face value without making inferences, or understanding references and allusions to American systems.



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20 Dec 2021, 11:32 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Thanks Angel.

I had no idea what a "CRT lens" was when you first said it, but I still thought it meant "I'm only saying this because I believe in CRT, so that's how I view the world when I respond to you. " Then your answers just kept going back and forth such that even if I wasn't in the conversation I didn't understand your point-of-view.

Classic case of me being naive, not understanding when people are joking, and not being able to catch subtext or political innuendo. I guess it also reminds me why I hate politics so much -- I'm very literal and take words at face value without making inferences, or understanding references and allusions to American systems.

No problem. Sometimes I forget who my audience is. To be accurate, I’d say I was role-playing how CRT frames everything white people say/do as racist.

It seems the steam has run out of the discussion (metaphorically speaking). I’ve made my point, so it’s time to move on. I may make yet another post or two as I’m winding down.



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20 Dec 2021, 12:08 pm

Found this on YouTube. I’d encourage progressives to watch the whole thing, of course. It’s Robin DiAngelo discussing her book Nice Racism with Resmaa Menakem. Early on she admits to her own racism—not because she’s proud of being a racist, but because being white she’s part of the system. She discusses how liberals/progressives are so focused on “those racists over there” that they overlook ways in which they are actually doing harm to the black community. If I did this right, the video should start somewhere around the 14 minute mark where Resmaa tells the story about Nancy Pelosi attending some event when she reached down and touched a black girl’s hair. Resmaa describes the act as “vicious” and explains that to a black person, it recalls a history in which black bodies were not their own. White people had access to black bodies any time they wanted, and for a white woman to touch a black girl’s hair is to express ownership over the girl.

[EDIT: Vid doesn’t start where I thought it would. Oh well. The part I was referring to began at 14:28 if you want to skip ahead]



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20 Dec 2021, 12:59 pm

Now, is there actually a problem with pointing out that sort of racism? Is it just that it's impolite to call it what it is? :?


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AngelRho
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20 Dec 2021, 2:11 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Now, is there actually a problem with pointing out that sort of racism? Is it just that it's impolite to call it what it is? :?

No, there’s not. But why beat the drum that all white people are racist? Why insist on tearing white people down just for being white? If you listen to Resmaa’s commentary, he says describes racial trauma as being real, it’s in the body, and it’s passed down from generation. Same thing with racism—we are literally, physically born with it and pass it down to our own children. Well…you already know what WP progressives will say—where’s the evidence? Those of us who know anything about biology know that’s not how it works. Young people will internalize micro aggressions, or what Resmaa calls viciousness, as trauma or racism if you tell them to. But this idea that a white person witnesses a lynching and is comfortable with seeing it is something that is physically passed down to all generations thereafter—well, that’s just New Age mysticism.

Now, my grandparents lived during Jim Crow and my own parents came of age in the Civil Rights era. My father grew up in a rural area and went to an all-white, segregated public school. So for my parents and grandparents throwing the n word around was perfectly normal. It was just part of regular conversation. “So who fixed your car for you?” “Oh, I just hired a couple of n*****s to work on it.” They didn’t throw it around like it was a bad thing or a racial slur. So yeah, as a kid I used that word, too, laughed at all the jokes, etc. It was when I said it around my mom that she explained that was inappropriate and to never use that word. But dad does it, and so does everyone else. “Ok, but YOU don’t say it.” And being a momma’s boy I stopped saying it. It was only years later when I began to understand why it was a thing.

But I’m not going to continue feeling guilty for something that a) Didn’t harm anyone, and b) couldn’t be faulted for at the time. And I don’t use degrading language about blacks with my children, and they never learned those words. They don’t show racist tendencies, and certainly didn’t inherit any of my behaviors from when I was a child.

And I’d go so far to say that I don’t want my kids exposed to anything that’s going to make them feel ashamed of who they are. If you feel guilt because you actually did hurt someone, that’s one thing. You owe it not just to the person you offended to make things right, but above all to yourself. But guilt just for being white? No, I don’t accept that at all.

I do think that by NOT teaching history and the realities of slavery, conservatives do children a disservice. But from what I can piece together from both sides of the argument, it’s not that they intend to present a “whitewashed” (pun intended) view of history. I think the idea is to take out language that paints white people SPECIFICALLY as oppressors in a current day in which racial oppression holds no relevance for us. Get rid of emotionally-charged terms such as racism and let kids make up their own minds. Or allow parents the opportunity to explain it.

Also, I suspect that claims regarding what Texas is actually doing with their education laws, what can/can’t be taught is exaggerated. I think the reality is slightly more complex than that and CRT folks aren’t entirely representing the whole truth. That, of course, is beyond my knowledge, so I can’t really say any more than that without pure speculation.



cyberdad
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20 Dec 2021, 11:56 pm

AngelRho wrote:
No, there’s not. But why beat the drum that all white people are racist? Why insist on tearing white people down just for being white? .


Like a broken record but here we go again.

Q.1 Do you make your white students feel they are racist? Y/N

Q.2 Is it really so hard to present social/history in an objective manner that does not demean or belittle students in your class? (honestly it's not rocket science)

You are endangering your own students if you project your own fears/paranoia about CRT. It's not helpful to you or the students. You need to take more personal responsibility for your own actions and not blame CRT.



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27 Dec 2021, 9:25 am

December 19, 2020 - Donald Trump Jr. said “I’d love not to have to participate in cancel culture. I’d love that it didn’t exist. But as long as it does, folks, we better be playing the same game. Okay?


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24 Jan 2022, 12:45 pm

Florida school district cancels professor’s civil rights lecture over critical race theory concerns

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A Florida school district canceled a professor’s civil rights history seminar for teachers, citing in part concerns over “critical race theory” — even though his lecture had nothing to do with the topic.

J. Michael Butler, a history professor at Flagler College in St. Augustine, was scheduled to give a presentation Saturday to Osceola County School District teachers called “The Long Civil Rights Movement,” which postulates that the civil rights movement preceded and post-dated Martin Luther King Jr. by decades.

He said that he was shocked to learn why the seminar had been canceled through an email Wednesday but that he wasn’t surprised because educators feel increasingly intimidated over teaching about race.

Less than 24 hours before Butler was informed of the cancellation, a state Senate committee advanced legislation Tuesday at the behest of Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis to block public schools and private businesses from making people feel “discomfort” when they’re taught about race. DeSantis also wants to empower parents to sue schools that teach critical race theory.

There’s a climate of fear, an atmosphere created by Gov. Ron DeSantis, that has blurred the lines between scared and opportunistic,” Butler said in a phone interview.

“The victims of this censorship are history and the truth,” Butler said. “The end game is they’re going to make teaching civil rights into ‘critical race theory,’ and it’s not.”

Butler said he learned why the presentation was canceled from the email, which was forwarded to him by one of the teachers who had been signed up to attend. The teacher locked his or her Twitter account out of fear of being exposed for speaking out.

Butler said a council employee also informed him that local administrators felt the topic had set off CRT “red flags” at the school district. Leatherman said the district told NCHE the seminar could not take place because Butler's materials needed to be reviewed, but could be held at a later date subject to editing — logistically, however, it was not feasible for the NCHE to reschedule.

Butler said: This is all fact-based instruction. This is not theory-based. This is not indoctrination.”


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24 Jan 2022, 2:57 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Florida school district cancels professor’s civil rights lecture over critical race theory concerns
Quote:
A Florida school district canceled a professor’s civil rights history seminar for teachers, citing in part concerns over “critical race theory” — even though his lecture had nothing to do with the topic.

J. Michael Butler, a history professor at Flagler College in St. Augustine, was scheduled to give a presentation Saturday to Osceola County School District teachers called “The Long Civil Rights Movement,” which postulates that the civil rights movement preceded and post-dated Martin Luther King Jr. by decades.

He said that he was shocked to learn why the seminar had been canceled through an email Wednesday but that he wasn’t surprised because educators feel increasingly intimidated over teaching about race.

Less than 24 hours before Butler was informed of the cancellation, a state Senate committee advanced legislation Tuesday at the behest of Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis to block public schools and private businesses from making people feel “discomfort” when they’re taught about race. DeSantis also wants to empower parents to sue schools that teach critical race theory.

There’s a climate of fear, an atmosphere created by Gov. Ron DeSantis, that has blurred the lines between scared and opportunistic,” Butler said in a phone interview.

“The victims of this censorship are history and the truth,” Butler said. “The end game is they’re going to make teaching civil rights into ‘critical race theory,’ and it’s not.”

Butler said he learned why the presentation was canceled from the email, which was forwarded to him by one of the teachers who had been signed up to attend. The teacher locked his or her Twitter account out of fear of being exposed for speaking out.

Butler said a council employee also informed him that local administrators felt the topic had set off CRT “red flags” at the school district. Leatherman said the district told NCHE the seminar could not take place because Butler's materials needed to be reviewed, but could be held at a later date subject to editing — logistically, however, it was not feasible for the NCHE to reschedule.

Butler said: This is all fact-based instruction. This is not theory-based. This is not indoctrination.”


I knew this anti-CRT hysteria was going to be used to suppress the teaching of actual history.


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AngelRho
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24 Jan 2022, 5:33 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Florida school district cancels professor’s civil rights lecture over critical race theory concerns
Quote:
A Florida school district canceled a professor’s civil rights history seminar for teachers, citing in part concerns over “critical race theory” — even though his lecture had nothing to do with the topic.

J. Michael Butler, a history professor at Flagler College in St. Augustine, was scheduled to give a presentation Saturday to Osceola County School District teachers called “The Long Civil Rights Movement,” which postulates that the civil rights movement preceded and post-dated Martin Luther King Jr. by decades.

He said that he was shocked to learn why the seminar had been canceled through an email Wednesday but that he wasn’t surprised because educators feel increasingly intimidated over teaching about race.

Less than 24 hours before Butler was informed of the cancellation, a state Senate committee advanced legislation Tuesday at the behest of Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis to block public schools and private businesses from making people feel “discomfort” when they’re taught about race. DeSantis also wants to empower parents to sue schools that teach critical race theory.

There’s a climate of fear, an atmosphere created by Gov. Ron DeSantis, that has blurred the lines between scared and opportunistic,” Butler said in a phone interview.

“The victims of this censorship are history and the truth,” Butler said. “The end game is they’re going to make teaching civil rights into ‘critical race theory,’ and it’s not.”

Butler said he learned why the presentation was canceled from the email, which was forwarded to him by one of the teachers who had been signed up to attend. The teacher locked his or her Twitter account out of fear of being exposed for speaking out.

Butler said a council employee also informed him that local administrators felt the topic had set off CRT “red flags” at the school district. Leatherman said the district told NCHE the seminar could not take place because Butler's materials needed to be reviewed, but could be held at a later date subject to editing — logistically, however, it was not feasible for the NCHE to reschedule.

Butler said: This is all fact-based instruction. This is not theory-based. This is not indoctrination.”


I knew this anti-CRT hysteria was going to be used to suppress the teaching of actual history.

But you don’t know what Butler’s content actually is. HE says it’s fact based, not theory based. Should we just take someone’s word for it that it’s fact based and not based on a narrative?

I’m genuinely curious about specifically what it was that got him canceled.



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24 Jan 2022, 5:38 pm

Dumbasses.

Most of the civil rights movement was and is the polar opposite of CRT inspired/influenced segregationist thinking and viewing individuals by the groups they are born into.

By wrongly conflating CRT and the civil rights movement they validate the idea that all opposition to CRT is about CRT opponents racism thus unfairly painting those of us who oppose racist illiberal CRT influenced/inspired “anti racist” training and curricula as racists.

Parents and the authorities who support these reverse cancellations are expanding the very snowplow parenting(clearing all obstacles for their kids) they claim to oppose. The conservatives are right that helicopter and snowplow parenting make for too fragile offspring and yet those that support these reverse cancellations are contributing to the problem. And yeah, further validating the idea that any complaining about helicopter/snowplow parenting is about the complaints racism and toxic masculinity.

A problem is people are increasingly unable to tell the difference between teaching facts that is going to make people uncomfortable and constantly hectoring people to make people so unconfortable so often they give up and conform or become brainwashed.


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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 24 Jan 2022, 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fnord
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24 Jan 2022, 5:38 pm

The sad part is the seminar was canceled before the professor had a chance to present his lecture.  The cancelation seems to have been based solely on the title "The Long Civil Rights Movement" and DeSantis' own fear that critical race theory might be mentioned.



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24 Jan 2022, 7:49 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Florida school district cancels professor’s civil rights lecture over critical race theory concerns
Quote:
A Florida school district canceled a professor’s civil rights history seminar for teachers, citing in part concerns over “critical race theory” — even though his lecture had nothing to do with the topic.

J. Michael Butler, a history professor at Flagler College in St. Augustine, was scheduled to give a presentation Saturday to Osceola County School District teachers called “The Long Civil Rights Movement,” which postulates that the civil rights movement preceded and post-dated Martin Luther King Jr. by decades.

He said that he was shocked to learn why the seminar had been canceled through an email Wednesday but that he wasn’t surprised because educators feel increasingly intimidated over teaching about race.

Less than 24 hours before Butler was informed of the cancellation, a state Senate committee advanced legislation Tuesday at the behest of Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis to block public schools and private businesses from making people feel “discomfort” when they’re taught about race. DeSantis also wants to empower parents to sue schools that teach critical race theory.

There’s a climate of fear, an atmosphere created by Gov. Ron DeSantis, that has blurred the lines between scared and opportunistic,” Butler said in a phone interview.

“The victims of this censorship are history and the truth,” Butler said. “The end game is they’re going to make teaching civil rights into ‘critical race theory,’ and it’s not.”

Butler said he learned why the presentation was canceled from the email, which was forwarded to him by one of the teachers who had been signed up to attend. The teacher locked his or her Twitter account out of fear of being exposed for speaking out.

Butler said a council employee also informed him that local administrators felt the topic had set off CRT “red flags” at the school district. Leatherman said the district told NCHE the seminar could not take place because Butler's materials needed to be reviewed, but could be held at a later date subject to editing — logistically, however, it was not feasible for the NCHE to reschedule.

Butler said: This is all fact-based instruction. This is not theory-based. This is not indoctrination.”


I knew this anti-CRT hysteria was going to be used to suppress the teaching of actual history.

But you don’t know what Butler’s content actually is. HE says it’s fact based, not theory based. Should we just take someone’s word for it that it’s fact based and not based on a narrative?

I’m genuinely curious about specifically what it was that got him canceled.


As Fnord pointed out, we never got a chance to hear what his lectures consist of. I think it's more likely that certain whites don't want to face that not all whites have behaved honorably when minorities have demanded their constitutional rights.


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24 Jan 2022, 9:23 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Dumbasses.

Most of the civil rights movement was and is the polar opposite of CRT inspired/influenced segregationist thinking and viewing individuals by the groups they are born into.

By wrongly conflating CRT and the civil rights movement they validate the idea that all opposition to CRT is about CRT opponents racism thus unfairly painting those of us who oppose racist illiberal CRT influenced/inspired “anti racist” training and curricula as racists.


Exactly, this is a huge tactical error and a gift to the opposition, they should immediately reinstate the lecture, with an apology.

The fundamental difference between modern CRT derived "anti-racism" and traditional civil rights activism needs to be made crystal clear in order for this project to succeed, boneheaded moves like this just muddy the waters and allow the CRT people to cloak themselves in the unearned mantle of the real civil rights heroes.


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24 Jan 2022, 9:58 pm

Unless of course this outcome is desired and instances like this aren't a bug, they're the core feature. :chin:


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24 Jan 2022, 10:18 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Unless of course this outcome is desired and instances like this aren't a bug, they're the core feature. :chin:


They aren't, this movement gets its strength from suburban moderates, the architect of the whole thing is a Seattle area Millennial, separating it from previous religious right driven curriculum fights is a high priority for them as that's poisonous to the types of voters they're trying to reach here.

Rufo has been very up front with what he's doing here, he's baiting the left into defending their nuttiest academic theories in public, in the context of what's being taught to children, which makes it high stakes for their parents. He doesn't want to whitewash history, that doesn't help him in any way and is a distraction, what he wants is to drag the theorists out of the shadows and make them Exhibit A in why the left can't be trusted to educate your children, and more broadly, govern your country, he comes right out and says it.

Image

The truly amazing thing is that the Democratic party could easily get out of this if it was willing to "Sista Souljah" these cranks, which would be a brilliant political move regardless, but they won't, they'll cut their own throats trying to defend it instead and lose everything they claim to care about.


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