How can we convince the govnerment they cannot beat covid?

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ironpony
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28 Mar 2021, 11:04 pm

So this virus is suppose to be a really powerful plague yet it needs water droplets to travel? Are you sure that's just what people want to believe to feel safer?



Redd_Kross
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28 Mar 2021, 11:26 pm

I agree it may never go away. The more likely outcome at this moment in time is we'll end up vaccinating the most vulnerable in society against the latest strain(s) every year, like flu.

Flu vaccination generally works pretty well, wouldn't you say? Especially in comparison with your alternative option of just not bothering to do anything.

I get a bit tired of all the false comparisons in the Covid-19 debate. Starting with the classic "Well it's not that dangerous, look at the figures". The figures are how they are precisely BECAUSE of all the measures that have been in place. Take those precautions away, and you can expect to see the death rate increase by a massive factor, I would guess at least tenfold. Why? Because at present Governments are working hard to contain a virus that would otherwise spread exponentially, and to keep the most vulnerable best protected, and to keep the infection rate low enough that hospitals aren't overwhelmed.

The infection rate won't stay gentle and predictable if we just let Covid-19 loose. Viruses don't just infect one person at a time. Think of multiplier patterns instead - 1, 5, 14, 30, 55, 91, 140, 204. Then consider what happens when there are no ICU beds and highly infectious, ill and dying people end up wheezing to death at home, in the street, in nursing homes, or on trolleys in hospital corridors. It doesn't take long for society to get overwhelmed and break down.

There's plenty of historical evidence showing this happening in the past, and so illustrating why the current precautions are necessary. Here's a very simple introduction: Wiki list of Epidemics



Last edited by Redd_Kross on 28 Mar 2021, 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ironpony
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28 Mar 2021, 11:29 pm

Well my prediction is that covid will not get better and people will eventually say screw it, and go back to living life normally, and covid will just become as normal to people as the flu.



Redd_Kross
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28 Mar 2021, 11:45 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well my prediction is that covid will not get better and people will eventually say screw it, and go back to living life normally, and covid will just become as normal to people as the flu.


That's not going to happen until the initial vaccination cycle has been completed and the results assessed, and a long term strategy developed. You can't just say "screw it" and go back to living normally at the moment, because if you try it the results won't be normal. Unless of course you're somehow used to hospitals overflowing and a social life dominated by death. Covid-19 could become a relatively low risk in the long run, but only through shrewd Government policy now, and long term scientific and medical endeavour stretching well into the future.

Getting a grip over Covid-19 is reliant on people being patient, rather than saying "f**k it" and jumping the gun. That's precisely what all the science is all about - trying to reduce the threat until it's relatively trivial.

In simple terms, you can go out in the street at the moment, but it's full of tigers, and they're hungry. Or you can wait 6 months until vaccination has turned them all into racoons. They're still there, but no longer capable of biting your face off. Good luck if you think running the tiger gauntlet will be anything like normal life.



ironpony
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28 Mar 2021, 11:56 pm

I don't think people are resilient enough to hold out long and would just give up sooner or later. And I didn't think the vaccine would do a lot of good because a lot of people I know say they wouldn't get and they are too scared, so if a lot of people feel that way, then it will still float around.



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29 Mar 2021, 12:01 am

Just as a reminder, the lowest estimate of Spanish Flu deaths 1918 - 1920 is 17 million people. The upper end of estimates is closer to 100 million, and the general consensus is that it killed around 50 million. By comparison World War 1 killed approximately 38 million people. Total Spanish Flu infections were somewhere around 500 million people.

How many of those people, at the time, said "screw it"?

Flu is relatively low risk now (though less so for the elderly and the chronically ill) but that wasn't always the case. We lost a huge number of people, getting to where we are now.

Spanish Flu



Last edited by Redd_Kross on 29 Mar 2021, 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

ironpony
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29 Mar 2021, 12:05 am

What did they to get rid if Spanish flu then? When I looked it old photgraphs from the time, no one is wearing masks in public.



Redd_Kross
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29 Mar 2021, 12:13 am

ironpony wrote:
I don't think people are resilient enough to hold out long and would just give up sooner or later. And I didn't think the vaccine would do a lot of good because a lot of people I know say they wouldn't get and they are too scared, so if a lot of people feel that way, then it will still float around.


The risk of complications from the vaccines is miniscule compared to the risks of Covid-19 itself. There's a lot of people out there who are useless at weighing up relative risk. And unfortunately that's being fuelled by lots of idiots on social media platforms like Facebook and Twitter. Don't get me wrong, the world has always been full of idiots, but this is the first time everyone's ill-informed opinions have all had equal exposure. It doesn't mean they make any sense or have any validity. Opinions are like a***holes, everybody's got one, doesn't mean I need to know about it.

At the end of the day the Covid deniers and vaccine conspiracy theorists will be at a disadvantage in Darwinian terms. If Covid-19 kills them off while everyone else is protected, that's the end of the "still floating around" problem, isn't it? The whole thing becomes self-limiting. It's a definite own-goal for those affected, though.



Redd_Kross
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29 Mar 2021, 12:30 am

ironpony wrote:
What did they to get rid if Spanish flu then? When I looked it old photgraphs from the time, no one is wearing masks in public.

Have you tried typing "Spanish Flu" into Google and then clicking the Images tab? I'm looking at a LOT of photos of people wearing masks.

You're going to love the write-up from Wiki....

"Public health management

While systems for alerting public health authorities of infectious spread did exist in 1918, they did not generally include influenza, leading to a delayed response. Nevertheless, actions were taken. Maritime quarantines were declared on islands such as Iceland, Australia, and American Samoa, saving many lives. Social distancing measures were introduced, for example closing schools, theatres, and places of worship, limiting public transportation, and banning mass gatherings. Wearing face masks became common in some places, such as Japan, though there were debates over their efficacy. There was also some resistance to their use, as exemplified by the Anti-Mask League of San Francisco. Vaccines were also developed, but as these were based on bacteria and not the actual virus, they could only help with secondary infections. The actual enforcement of various restrictions varied. To a large extent, the New York City health commissioner ordered businesses to open and close on staggered shifts to avoid overcrowding on the subways.

A later study found that measures such as banning mass gatherings and requiring the wearing of face masks could cut the death rate up to 50 percent, but this was dependent on their being imposed early in the outbreak and not being lifted prematurely."

Sound familiar?

That particular flu strain is still around and pops up again every so often. The main differences now are awareness, early containment and in some cases, vaccination.

H1N1



Bradleigh
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29 Mar 2021, 12:37 am

ironpony wrote:
So this virus is suppose to be a really powerful plague yet it needs water droplets to travel? Are you sure that's just what people want to believe to feel safer?


I am not sure what your point is. Are you saying that it would not be a powerful plague if required hitching a ride on water particles? Can you point to a plague did not require some larger way to transmit itself? Do you think virus cells can fly around by their own power? It is when people cough, they send water particles from their saliva, and the holes in a mask are too small for the particles to go flying through. It is pretty easy science that if everyone wore a mask to stop the spread and people acted logical, it would probably be over.

ironpony wrote:
I don't think people are resilient enough to hold out long and would just give up sooner or later. And I didn't think the vaccine would do a lot of good because a lot of people I know say they wouldn't get and they are too scared, so if a lot of people feel that way, then it will still float around.


How can you write that and not see that your just ignore it is the side that is going to make this harder to get rid of. Selfish people living in fear against what the science says. Afraid enough not to get the vaccine, but not so as to think should just ignore the whole thing.


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ironpony
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29 Mar 2021, 12:45 am

Those are good points. I just thought the virus would travel through the air a lot. Maybe I assume the worst too much and do not see a light at the end of the tunnel enough.



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29 Mar 2021, 4:06 pm

Sometimes when we get in an elevator, as soon as the doors close I ask my bride "Are we there yet?"

She knows I am kidding.

Sometimes when there is a really big global problem that will take a lot of time and effort to get under control, as soon as any progress is made some impatient person will ask "The problem isn't fixed yet! Wasn't it supposed to be magically fixed instantaneously?? Shouldn't we abandon all hope and give up?!"

Who are they kidding?


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29 Mar 2021, 6:30 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, I felt that the government was trying to go up against impossible odds. I guess it's also hard for me to believe that the government is doing this out of the desperation of their good heart. Normally they don't do something unless there is something in it for them, and what piece of the action are they getting as a result? They are not just doing this just to be Dudley Do-Right as you say, are they?

But if they are, they had a chance to not let covid into country way back and they chose not to listen and blew it.

"They," in this case, were specifically one person, namely Donald Trump, who decided to ignore the advice he was given and downplay COVID. This decision was made back in January 2020, when COVID was still just a small problem but threatening to become a much bigger problem. Had it been dealt immediately with as the experts advised back then, it probably would not have become such a big problem.

In any case, now that the vaccines are being distributed, hopefully the COVID crisis will be over with sometime this year. In the meantime, let's all continue to wear masks and practice "social distancing" to minimize the number of people who get sick until that time.


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29 Mar 2021, 6:33 pm

ironpony wrote:
I don't think people are resilient enough to hold out long and would just give up sooner or later. And I didn't think the vaccine would do a lot of good because a lot of people I know say they wouldn't get and they are too scared, so if a lot of people feel that way, then it will still float around.

Hopefully their fears will be alleviated after more people get vaccinated.


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29 Mar 2021, 6:42 pm

I know very few people who are afraid of the vaccine.

My mother got on my butt to get her vaccine appointments!

And many people I know see the value of the vaccine---and some of them are not the most enlightened people around.

We will beat COVID! It will become like the Flu where we must get shots every year, I believe.



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29 Mar 2021, 7:24 pm





"But Birx saw it most starkly, stating that the vast majority of America's deaths could have been prevented,
a painful interpretation of the last year for a nation still trying to come to terms with the ongoing loss of life."

Fact is, IF the Government Per The Trump Administration Had Listened And Pushed for the Science
Recommendations then, instead of Ignoring them Like the Trump Administration Did, Very Potentially
Hundreds of Thousands of Lives Could Have Been Saved If Science, Instead of Selfish Politics Was More

in Charge...

Do or Die...

What's Amazing is that
Our System is Such that it was

Allowed to Go on When Most Every
Scientist Could See Where it Was going...

Problem When A President Becomes Head
Executioner oF iGnorance on '5th Avenue'

Just Waiting For His Servant's Heads Dead
If That Suits his Selfish Purposes For Getting

Ahead as that is Precisely What He did, exchange
LiveS in Ignorance for Selfish Desires to Get Ahead and Stay Ahead...

Anyway, There's A New Kid in Town, in Fact, A Much Older Wiser President

Who Is Getting Stuff Done And Taking A Pandemic Seriously instead of Just Something to Joke about for
Fun, where Medical Science Teams Up With A More Trusted And Honest Administration of Government

Amazing What

Humans Will

Do ToGeTHeR

If There isn't A BLaCK
HoLE Human Suffering All

The Loving Energy Out of the Human
World as Again i Live in Trump Town USA...

Got a Yearly Car Wash today; the 'Cadillac Treatment' for my
Civic; Surrounding My Entry Level Honda in The Vacuum Your
Vehicle Garden, After The CarWash Part Automatic, Were Three Stacked
Tahoes; Additionally, A Denali And A Special Edition Silverado Eclipse Pick-up

Truck All Eclipsing the Price of my Home Building it in '93, Specifically
Sixty Thousand Bucks Then As the Real Estate Lady Tried to Shame me
For Only Building a 1333 Square Foot Ranch Home in the Forest in a Lovely

Peaceful Neighborhood With only A Single Car Garage and Screened-in Patio,
And Shed, i added later on With Privacy Fence too except for the Forest Part

to Forever in the

Backyard where

i See the Same

Now Out of my

24-Inch Bedroom Window

While Viewing this 27.1 Inch
iMac Screen; Yes, 5K Retina Screen
Easy on the Eyes indeed, Yet the View

Out the Window of Forest Spring Green
Colors of Flowers And A Full Variety of

(So Much Fur And Wings Coloring Wild)

Deciduous And Evergreen Trees of the Nature
of Reality, The Energy of All of it, i Personally Name
God is Beyond All Material Developments of Humans
As Far As Words, Clothes, And Other Tools Go, To Add 'Body Parts' to Nature

Sadly Killing off 1 in 8 More Species of Plants And Animals in the Coming Decades...

True, The Huge 5 Bedroom Homes, Approaching Half A Million Dollars in my Area
Have increased the Value of my Home up to the Average Price of A Home, Three times More
Than When i purchased it 27 and a Half Years Ago, Yet Still It's All About What Ya Value in Life

Trump Was/Is all External Material

Goods, Power, Wealth, And Status...

Driving Up to the Car Wash, The Young

Lady Joyfully Said, 'Oh, You Are the Dancing Guy'

You Bring Joy to Everyone, Lovely to meet You Now

As Yes, i've Public Danced now 14,677 Miles in 91 Months

in my Metro Area Where over Two Years ago one of Innumerable

Video Voyeur Captures of me for Facebook Social Media Went Viral

With 88 Thousand Views And Around 1300 Comments ensued As the
Metro Area Assessed What and Who They Thought i was in Full From

Legend, to Hero, to Icon, to if You haven't Seen Him Yet you Must not
Get out of the House, to the Outliers not so kind, Like He Might 'Go Postal'

And do more than A Rampage Dancing Spree All Around the Metro Area, hehe...

One of my Favorite Assessments Was/is Spirit Animal; Getting Closer to Wild Life always
A Goal of mine, So Damn Domesticated And Square; And still So Odd i was most of my Life...

True, Odd to the Max

Now yet the Difference,

Totally Wild and Loving Free

Enough without Affirmation From others

Or With it too; although it can be a little

Unnerving when folks Literally Kneel to you

With their Hands Clasped in Prayer like you are A
Guru of Public Dancing and the only one indeed in Trump Town USA...

i was just Having fun (Still am) with Empty Pockets Standing as the Only 'Famous Person'

With My Economy Sized Honda Civic And All The Giant Home Sized Priced Vehicles Around

me Making Folks 'Feel' Bigger than they Are; Well it's True, You Can't get bigger than Bringing

A Smile of Ecstatic Joy to the Surrounding General Public's Faces Just Because You exist in this

World With Empty Pockets

Just having Fun

Dancing the Day

And Night Away And

They have no Clue of what

my Dance And Song Does online hAha...

Just resting my Hands while i Dance, Just Resting
my Feet, While i Sing Poetry Free Verse too; Yet it

is True, 'Ferris

Bueller', And Yes

'The Dude' off 'The

Big Lebowski' Movie,

And 'Forrest Gump'

Coming to A Reality Show of

Life i Create NoW As my Own Colors of Life

Is a Different Kind of One Man Show Pandemic

Altogether; Just A Smile, A Dance, A Song That

Spreads Like a Tsunami, Yet i'm A Peaceful Wave in the

Middle of the Ocean, Yet i'm Just the Ocean, Yet i'm Just Water

And Air all the Energy in Nature Outside And Inside This 24 Inch Window Now

i'm More

Interested

in Helping Folks

Actually Live and at

Least Smile while i'm around

in Flesh and Blood Life at least

When i don't have to say A 'Damn Word';

Just Dance, Just Dance, And Just Be the Dance of Life A SMiLe...

True, i Really Love to See 'The Breathing' Truly Live Now, if Not for a First Way Truly Free to Be in Joy...

Yeah, it's A Good Feeling to Understand That You Bring Blue Skies Wherever You Go Whatever Season

Just For Free

to Be Having

All Natural Joy

of Dance Born

This Way to Dance Free...

Looking Around and seeing

the investment you Make, all the Surrounding Smiles...

It's a Life of Heaven; it's a Pandemic of Smiles, So Much Different Than 'the other

American Dream'

of A Truck

As Expensive

As A Home That

Becomes Both Lover

And God to Polish Lost....

Just Lost in A Vacuum Center Park...

Yes, There's A Lesson Here, There Are

Negative Pandemics One Human Will Breed

Like Trump and His Administration to the Extreme

And true

there is

little

old

me too

With Empty

Pockets Leading

'Minion Smiles' in the

Polar Opposite Direction of Trump Life indeed...

i would Love to Set A Good Example; Yet Let's Just

Face it; 'Some Folks' Only Come Around Once; Best to live this Life now to

The Max of Human Potential As Now is the Now We Get to Shine Or Implode as Black Holes...

Yet Remember, Science in Quantum Mechanics At Least, Suggests that Spin and Torsion

Of Universes Falling

in Black

Hole Areas

Only Births

New UNiVeRSES

Resurrecting Out of Black Holes

As It Seems Like Resurrecting is in

Essence Nature And the God iF it For Real

In all of us, Either Falling or Rising We Bring 'Stars' to Life...

At Best We Remain in Balance, Bringing Sunshine Within to All Surrounding Existence...

All A Sun has to Do is Keep Shining as Long as it Will, Effortless in Ease FRiEnDS with Gravity Now...

Sadly There Are Black Hole Suns Like Trump Sucking Up All the 'Good' Out of the World, yet AwaKinG Love Again...

Resurrecting

in All Ways

This Life

Continues to be

Stars Dust From Super

Nova Explosions Crucible

Fire of Star Death We come

To be Resurrecting too Iron

In Our Blood Streams From

That Celestial Death to

Resurrection of Us

Standing

Sentient

Star Dust Dead

Then Alive Again Us...

At Essence Star Flowers

From Star Flower Seed

Death Sprouting As Such

Seeding More Star Flowers Still...

GOD YES That's More Amazing than

Any Bible Story for Real

Science is A Most

Awesome

'Bible' So

Far As We Extend

Our Living Souls with tools too...

Meanwhile, Blue Skies Continue to Smile,

WHere i BREaTHE AT LeaST NoW Dancing Singing Wild Loving Free

At Best With Least Harm At Most With Most Love that Brings Smiles of Joy Free Now For All..:)

https://https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/27/politics/covid-war-deaths-preventable/index.html



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