Trial of Derek Chauvin, who Killed George Floyd

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funeralxempire
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08 Apr 2021, 1:50 pm

Expert says George Floyd died from lack of oxygen

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George Floyd died from a lack of oxygen as he was pinned "in a vice" against the street during his arrest, a doctor at the trial of ex-police officer Derek Chauvin in Minneapolis has said.

Intensive care doctor Martin Tobin said Mr Floyd had died of asphyxia from the way he was restrained.

Mr Chauvin, 45, was filmed kneeling on Mr Floyd's neck for more than nine minutes during his arrest last May.

The ex-officer is on trial for murder and has denied the charges against him.

Dr Tobin also contradicted the defence's argument that the painkiller fentanyl was the cause of Mr Floyd's inability to breathe. A toxicology report released last June said that Mr Floyd had fentanyl in his system.

However, Dr Tobin said that Mr Floyd's breathing did not slow down enough for the drug to have been a factor in his total loss of oxygen.

The footage of Mr Chauvin, who is white, with his knee on African-American Mr Floyd's neck sparked global protests against racism.

The trial is in its second week and is expected to last for at least one month. The defence is due to begin arguing its case next week.

The prosecution in the case of Mr Chauvin has now begun hearing from medical experts.

Asked about the positioning of the handcuffs behind Mr Floyd's back, coupled with the downward pressure of Mr Chauvin's weight against him, Dr Tobin - an expert in pulmonary medicine - said that Mr Floyd's ability to expand his chest was severely impaired.

He said it was his medical opinion that Mr Floyd died after a low level of oxygen stopped his heart.

"[George Floyd] is jammed down against the street, so the street is playing a major role in preventing him from expanding his chest.

"He's against a hard asphalt street, so the way they're pushing down on his handcuffs combined with the street... it's like the left side is in a vice."

Dr Tobin said the positioning of the handcuffs was also significant.

"It's how they're being pushed, where they are being pushed, that totally interfere with central features of how we breathe."

Dr Tobin said that the position of Mr Chauvin's knee, pushing down against the left side of Mr Floyd's chest, meant that it was "almost... as if a surgeon had gone in and removed the [left] lung".

"Not quite, but along those lines.

"He has used up his resources and is literally trying to breathe with his fingers and knuckles against the street to try to crank up his chest, to try to get air into his right lung," he added.
'Healthy person would have died too'

Dr Tobin said that Mr Floyd had already shown signs of brain injury about four minutes before Mr Chauvin took his knee off his neck, and that a healthy person who was put through this "would have died" too.

About three minutes before Mr Chauvin removed his knee, Dr Tobin said, there was "not an ounce of oxygen left in his body".

"The knee remains on the neck for another three minutes and 27 seconds after he takes his last breath," Dr Tobin said. "After the officers have found themselves that there's no pulse, the knee remains on the neck for another two minutes and 44 seconds".

Dr Tobin used footage captured during Mr Floyd's arrest to provide his medical opinion on the ninth day of Mr Chauvin's trial in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

...


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TwisterUprocker
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08 Apr 2021, 10:20 pm

Daddy63 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Minnesota has no death penalty ... no legal death penalty.

Just stick him in with the general population of any prison cell block and let mob justice take its course.

Warden: "How did he die?"

Inmates (unison): "He fell."

Warden: "He looks too badly beaten up to say he just 'fell'."

Inmate (leader): "He fell ... twice."


I'd be fine with that. Or maybe he can pull a "Harvey Weinstein" and do it himself with the cameras unexpectedly malfunctioning.


Epstein not Weinstein



BeaArthur
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09 Apr 2021, 9:24 am

Yeah the Harvey Weinstein maneuver is to bend over a walker and hobble into court that way. "Poor me."


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09 Apr 2021, 9:48 am

TwisterUprocker wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Minnesota has no death penalty ... no legal death penalty.

Just stick him in with the general population of any prison cell block and let mob justice take its course.

Warden: "How did he die?"

Inmates (unison): "He fell."

Warden: "He looks too badly beaten up to say he just 'fell'."

Inmate (leader): "He fell ... twice."


I'd be fine with that. Or maybe he can pull a "Harvey Weinstein" and do it himself with the cameras unexpectedly malfunctioning.


Epstein not Weinstein


Thanks for the correction. I'm confusing famous liberal misogynists and rapists.



funeralxempire
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10 Apr 2021, 1:42 am

Doctor who performed George Floyd autopsy stands by homicide conclusion

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The medical examiner who performed the autopsy on George Floyd after last May's deadly arrest explained how he concluded the death was a homicide at the hands of police in testimony on Friday at former Minneapolis policeman Derek Chauvin's murder trial.

As jurors studied graphic autopsy photographs, Dr. Andrew Baker, Hennepin County's chief medical examiner, said he stood by the cause of death he determined last year as protests in Floyd's name against police brutality spread around the world.

Baker is one of the most important witnesses as prosecutors from the Minnesota attorney general's office wrap up their case against Chauvin, a white man captured on video kneeling on the neck of Floyd, a 46-year-old handcuffed Black man, for nine minutes.

Chauvin's main defense to the murder and manslaughter charges has been to cast doubt on Baker's finding, with his lawyers suggesting Floyd may instead have been killed by a simultaneous drug overdose.

Baker ruled last year that Floyd's death was a homicide caused by "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression." In short, he found that Floyd's heart stopped beating and his lungs stopped working because Chauvin, 45, and other officers compressed him against the road in a way that starved his body of oxygen.

Other medical experts called by prosecutors have spent the past two days pointing to the unusually large amount of video of the death, from multiple angles, saying it shores up Baker's finding, and contradicts the defense theory of an overdose.

Baker said he noted in his report that Floyd suffered from heart disease, and fentanyl and methamphetamine were found in his blood because those factors may have played a role in the death. Even so, he emphasized, they "were not direct causes."

"Mr. Floyd's use of fentanyl did not cause the subdual or the neck restraint, his heart disease did not cause the subdual or the neck restraint," Baker told the jury, using medical jargon to refer to the way police pressed Floyd face down against the street.

Envelopes containing the autopsy pictures were handed to everyone in the room, including reporters and spectators.

For the first time since the trial began in March, a person took the single seat reserved for Chauvin's friends and family. She paused before opening the envelope and looking at the photographs, and declined to speak to reporters who approached her during a recess.

One of Floyd's relatives has occupied the seat saved for his family almost every day since the testimony began on March 26, and on Friday it was Rodney Floyd, who held up the photos of his brother's body before his face to study them.

Under cross examination by Chauvin's lead lawyer, Eric Nelson, Baker discussed in general how the type of heart disease found in Floyd or his use of fentanyl, an opioid painkiller, can sometimes be deadly.

But he said neither directly caused Floyd's death, which he said he still believed was the holds and compression by the police officers arresting Floyd on suspicion of his using a fake $20 bill to buy cigarettes.

"My opinion remains unchanged: it's what I put on the death certificate last June," he said. "That was my top line then. It would stay my top line now."

'LAYING BY THE POOL IN FLORIDA'

Dr. Lindsey Thomas, an assistant medical examiner in the Hennepin County medical examiner's office until she took semi-retirement in 2017, said the sheer volume of videos of Floyd's arrest helped support Baker's findings, and had a value beyond what can be learned from a physical autopsy.

"There's never been a case I was involved in that had videos over such a long time frame and from so many different perspectives," Thomas testified, saying the videos made it clear physical signs associated with opioid overdose were not present in Floyd's death.

She said the videos did not show signs of a fentanyl overdose "where someone becomes very sleepy and then just sort of gradually, calmly, peacefully stops breathing." Nor did they show a sudden death, as from a heart attack.

"There's no evidence to suggest he would have died that night except for the interactions with law enforcement," she said.


Nelson, Chauvin's lawyer, got Thomas to agree that being prone was not in itself sufficient to kill someone, noting that massage therapists often have clients lie face down.

"I could be laying by the pool in Florida on my stomach in the prone position – not inherently dangerous?" Nelson asked.

"Right," Thomas replied.

Nelson also asked her about hypothetical scenarios, with Floyd being found dead in different circumstances in which police were not involved.

Questioned later by Blackwell, the prosecutor, Thomas told the jury that hypothetical scenarios were not helpful to a pathologist trying to determine a cause of death.

"George Floyd was not laying by the pool on his stomach in Florida, was he?" Blackwell asked her.

Thomas agreed.


TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
The Hennepin County Medical Examiner concluded Floyd died of cardiac arrest from the restraint and neck compression, also noting that Floyd had heart disease and fentanyl in his system. An independent report commissioned by Floyd’s family, which will not be shown at trial, concluded that he died of strangulation from the pressure to his back and neck. Both reports determined Floyd’s death was a homicide.[/color][/url]

The medical examiner determined *homicide* based on watching the video, not based on a physical examination.

The medical examiner said based on a physical examination, he would determine cause of death as *drug overdose*.


I think his testimony debunks this position. He's very clear that homicide was the cause, not a drug overdose.


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"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made... and they won't even admit the knife is there." Malcolm X
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


ezbzbfcg2
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10 Apr 2021, 1:57 am

If I were with his defense team, I'd try to get a trial in a different county (happens all the time). Best chance he has. Surprised they're doing it in the Twin Cities, too much bias.



funeralxempire
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10 Apr 2021, 2:15 am

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
If I were with his defense team, I'd try to get a trial in a different county (happens all the time). Best chance he has. Surprised they're doing it in the Twin Cities, too much bias.


The evidence is pretty slam dunk no matter where they hold the trial.


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"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made... and they won't even admit the knife is there." Malcolm X
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


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10 Apr 2021, 8:27 am

Quote:
The evidence is pretty slam dunk no matter where they hold the trial.

I agree with this.

You know what made the difference here. AMATEUR VIDEO. Yay for cell phones.


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10 Apr 2021, 12:01 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
I think his testimony debunks this position. He's very clear that homicide was the cause, not a drug overdose.

It's not a "position".

The medical examiner found no physical evidence that Chauvin caused Floyd's heart to stop, except, the video.

The defense attorney filed these notes from the medical examiner (Dr. Baker) ...

"If [Floyd] were found dead at home alone and no other apparent causes [sic], this could be acceptable to call an [overdose]," said the notes of a meeting between Baker and prosecutors that Nelson filed with the court. "… I am not saying this killed him."
https://www.startribune.com/cause-of-de ... 600039728/

So, Dr. Baker is saying that purely based on the physical examination, it appears to be an overdose.


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funeralxempire
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10 Apr 2021, 12:29 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I think his testimony debunks this position. He's very clear that homicide was the cause, not a drug overdose.

It's not a "position".

The medical examiner found no physical evidence that Chauvin caused Floyd's heart to stop, except, the video.


So you're saying he found no evidence except for the evidence that he considered conclusive? :scratch:


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"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made... and they won't even admit the knife is there." Malcolm X
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


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10 Apr 2021, 12:34 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I think his testimony debunks this position. He's very clear that homicide was the cause, not a drug overdose.

It's not a "position".

The medical examiner found no physical evidence that Chauvin caused Floyd's heart to stop, except, the video.


So you're saying he found no evidence except for the evidence that he considered conclusive? :scratch:

Dr. Baker said he could not even find a neck bruise.

This week, in court, he was asked, based on the physical examination would he determine death as an overdose ...

Nelson had Baker disclose what he told prosecutors earlier about whether Floyd overdosed, and Baker replied, "I don't recall specifically what I told the county attorney, but it almost certainly went something like this: Had Mr. Floyd been home alone in his locked residence with no evidence of trauma, and the only autopsy finding was that fentanyl level, then yes, I would certify his death as due to fentanyl toxicity".
https://www.vox.com/22373351/george-flo ... ner-report


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funeralxempire
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10 Apr 2021, 12:43 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I think his testimony debunks this position. He's very clear that homicide was the cause, not a drug overdose.

It's not a "position".

The medical examiner found no physical evidence that Chauvin caused Floyd's heart to stop, except, the video.


So you're saying he found no evidence except for the evidence that he considered conclusive? :scratch:

Dr. Baker said he could not even find a neck bruise.

This week, in court, he was asked, based on the physical examination would he determine death as an overdose ...

Nelson had Baker disclose what he told prosecutors earlier about whether Floyd overdosed, and Baker replied, "I don't recall specifically what I told the county attorney, but it almost certainly went something like this: Had Mr. Floyd been home alone in his locked residence with no evidence of trauma, and the only autopsy finding was that fentanyl level, then yes, I would certify his death as due to fentanyl toxicity".
https://www.vox.com/22373351/george-flo ... ner-report


It's a good thing that video also makes it clear that George Floyd was not displaying symptoms of a fentanyl overdose.

You're still making the argument that if the most important piece of evidence is ignored or wasn't available they wouldn't have had enough evidence to correctly determine the cause.
That's all that Baker said in that quote; he's conceding he would have made an incorrect determination.


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"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made... and they won't even admit the knife is there." Malcolm X
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


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10 Apr 2021, 12:56 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I think his testimony debunks this position. He's very clear that homicide was the cause, not a drug overdose.

It's not a "position".

The medical examiner found no physical evidence that Chauvin caused Floyd's heart to stop, except, the video.


So you're saying he found no evidence except for the evidence that he considered conclusive? :scratch:

Dr. Baker said he could not even find a neck bruise.

This week, in court, he was asked, based on the physical examination would he determine death as an overdose ...

Nelson had Baker disclose what he told prosecutors earlier about whether Floyd overdosed, and Baker replied, "I don't recall specifically what I told the county attorney, but it almost certainly went something like this: Had Mr. Floyd been home alone in his locked residence with no evidence of trauma, and the only autopsy finding was that fentanyl level, then yes, I would certify his death as due to fentanyl toxicity".
https://www.vox.com/22373351/george-flo ... ner-report


It's a good thing that video also makes it clear that George Floyd was not displaying symptoms of a fentanyl overdose.

You're still making the argument that if the most important piece of evidence is ignored or wasn't available they wouldn't have had enough evidence to correctly determine the cause.
That's all that Baker said in that quote; he's conceding he would have made an incorrect determination.

Having only a video as "evidence" is a huge problem for the prosecution, since anyone can form any opinion based on watching a video.

I think, I read the defense has 12 experts scheduled to testify.

Likely, these experts will say that Floyd died from drugs and heart problems.

They will likely use the video to show the opposite of what the prosecution witnesses say.


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funeralxempire
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10 Apr 2021, 1:13 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I think his testimony debunks this position. He's very clear that homicide was the cause, not a drug overdose.

It's not a "position".

The medical examiner found no physical evidence that Chauvin caused Floyd's heart to stop, except, the video.


So you're saying he found no evidence except for the evidence that he considered conclusive? :scratch:

Dr. Baker said he could not even find a neck bruise.

This week, in court, he was asked, based on the physical examination would he determine death as an overdose ...

Nelson had Baker disclose what he told prosecutors earlier about whether Floyd overdosed, and Baker replied, "I don't recall specifically what I told the county attorney, but it almost certainly went something like this: Had Mr. Floyd been home alone in his locked residence with no evidence of trauma, and the only autopsy finding was that fentanyl level, then yes, I would certify his death as due to fentanyl toxicity".
https://www.vox.com/22373351/george-flo ... ner-report


It's a good thing that video also makes it clear that George Floyd was not displaying symptoms of a fentanyl overdose.

You're still making the argument that if the most important piece of evidence is ignored or wasn't available they wouldn't have had enough evidence to correctly determine the cause.
That's all that Baker said in that quote; he's conceding he would have made an incorrect determination.

Having only a video as "evidence" is a huge problem for the prosecution, since anyone can form any opinion based on watching a video.

I think, I read the defense has 12 experts scheduled to testify.

Likely, these experts will say that Floyd died from drugs and heart problems.

They will likely use the video to show the opposite of what the prosecution witnesses say.


The defence will attempt to minimize the evidence as is their job.

I will be very interested to hear how they attempt to refute the experts who have so far testified. It's not like they have video of him repeatedly nodding off before the confrontation or anything else that suggests he was close to an opioid overdose.

All they have is proof that a habitual user had consumed some. That's not even enough to conclusively prove intoxication in court, at least in my personal experience. It's certainly not enough to ignore Chauvin's intentional use of deadly force.


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"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made... and they won't even admit the knife is there." Malcolm X
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


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10 Apr 2021, 4:10 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

The defence will attempt to minimize the evidence as is their job.

I will be very interested to hear how they attempt to refute the experts who have so far testified. It's not like they have video of him repeatedly nodding off before the confrontation or anything else that suggests he was close to an opioid overdose.

All they have is proof that a habitual user had consumed some. That's not even enough to conclusively prove intoxication in court, at least in my personal experience. It's certainly not enough to ignore Chauvin's intentional use of deadly force.

They will say the video shows ...

Floyd repeatedly resisted arrest (danger to officers)
Floyd exhibited "excited delirium" from the drugs
Floyd exhibited confusion
Floyd appears to have ate drugs to avoid them being discovered
Floyd was complaining of breathing problems long before Chauvin's knee
That Chauvin acted appropriately based on the situation

They will argue that if Floyd would of cooperated, paramedics could of got to him sooner.


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10 Apr 2021, 4:39 pm

One point not mentioned I think,

Morries Hall, a passenger with Mr. Floyd, invoked the 5th amendment and is refusing to testify.

"Floyd's girlfriend, Courteney Ross, took the witness stand and said she believes Floyd purchased drugs from Hall".

Morries Hall, passenger seen with George Floyd, invokes 5th Amendment to refuse testimony
https://kstp.com/news/morries-hall-pass ... l/6060165/


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