Coronavirus originated in a lab requires investigation

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Mr Reynholm
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10 Sep 2021, 2:48 pm

MaxE wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Because Trump hates China, so they can’t agree with him on anything.

Trump also loves Israel, do you agree with him on that?

I love Israel too. I hope to make another visit someday.



DW_a_mom
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10 Sep 2021, 7:58 pm

The issue I see is this: we need labs to study diseases in order to treat and contain them. Obviously we want it done as safely as possible. With the natural environment in China prone to originating new viruses, China is a natural place to do such study, and because viruses seldom stay in one place, we need international cooperation among scientists. That was the goal in creating the lab. If such labs become the target for complaints about the spread of a virus, that goal is basically off the table forever. I'm not saying if that is a good or bad thing; I saying that is the consequence I see developing.

What serves us best at this point? Learning all we can about how to contain and stop the spread of new viruses quickly, or playing a blame game? There will be a long term cost to the blame game: a shut down of science and experimentation. The ramifications will reach further than one lab in China. That may be fine with some people, this pandemic may make them feel the risk was never worth it. But I'm not sure everyone involved in the search for accountability realizes that squashing the future advancement of virology will be the cost. That loss isn't related to actual guilt as it may or may not exist; it is related to the willingness of the world's best and brightest to submit themselves to such scrutiny and suspicion. Understand all the likely ramifications when you push for something.


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Pepe
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10 Sep 2021, 8:26 pm

:roll:



The_Face_of_Boo
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The_Face_of_Boo
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11 Sep 2021, 2:17 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
The issue I see is this: we need labs to study diseases in order to treat and contain them. Obviously we want it done as safely as possible. With the natural environment in China prone to originating new viruses, China is a natural place to do such study, and because viruses seldom stay in one place, we need international cooperation among scientists. That was the goal in creating the lab. If such labs become the target for complaints about the spread of a virus, that goal is basically off the table forever. I'm not saying if that is a good or bad thing; I saying that is the consequence I see developing.

What serves us best at this point? Learning all we can about how to contain and stop the spread of new viruses quickly, or playing a blame game? There will be a long term cost to the blame game: a shut down of science and experimentation. The ramifications will reach further than one lab in China. That may be fine with some people, this pandemic may make them feel the risk was never worth it. But I'm not sure everyone involved in the search for accountability realizes that squashing the future advancement of virology will be the cost. That loss isn't related to actual guilt as it may or may not exist; it is related to the willingness of the world's best and brightest to submit themselves to such scrutiny and suspicion. Understand all the likely ramifications when you push for something.



This is a faulty typical totalitarian logic (keeping things secret for the “greater good”); no, the world has the right to know the truth.



The_Face_of_Boo
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11 Sep 2021, 2:23 am

Mr Reynholm wrote:
MaxE wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Because Trump hates China, so they can’t agree with him on anything.

Trump also loves Israel, do you agree with him on that?

I love Israel too. I hope to make another visit someday.


Most Americans love Israel; it is a Protestant cultural thing to love the Jews and Israel - the Protestant churches revert the Old Testament way more than other churches, I am aware of that. I always repeat that: it is not a coincidence that both US and UK has supported Israel the most historically while the Catholic countries don’t.

But I find it funny that Rey is trying yo make me hate Trump because “he loves Israel” while his Biden has called himself a Zionist more than once..... sheeeshh. At least Trump succeeded in establishing peace between Israel and 2 Arab countries, at least he’s not helping Iran to become a nuclear state, like Biden is doing (we all know the restrictions in the nuclear deal would be BS, Iran will develop nuclear weapons).



DW_a_mom
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11 Sep 2021, 2:52 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
The issue I see is this: we need labs to study diseases in order to treat and contain them. Obviously we want it done as safely as possible. With the natural environment in China prone to originating new viruses, China is a natural place to do such study, and because viruses seldom stay in one place, we need international cooperation among scientists. That was the goal in creating the lab. If such labs become the target for complaints about the spread of a virus, that goal is basically off the table forever. I'm not saying if that is a good or bad thing; I saying that is the consequence I see developing.

What serves us best at this point? Learning all we can about how to contain and stop the spread of new viruses quickly, or playing a blame game? There will be a long term cost to the blame game: a shut down of science and experimentation. The ramifications will reach further than one lab in China. That may be fine with some people, this pandemic may make them feel the risk was never worth it. But I'm not sure everyone involved in the search for accountability realizes that squashing the future advancement of virology will be the cost. That loss isn't related to actual guilt as it may or may not exist; it is related to the willingness of the world's best and brightest to submit themselves to such scrutiny and suspicion. Understand all the likely ramifications when you push for something.



This is a faulty typical totalitarian logic (keeping things secret for the “greater good”); no, the world has the right to know the truth.


I don't think I worded that well. I'm not saying there is no right to know or that the truth shouldn't eventually get figured out. But learning the facts can be done without all the negativity that has been ensuing, and without imperiling more immediate needs. People and news organizations should think about how each action will play out for long term world goals, not just personal short term ones. Right now I don't see anyone pursuing a lofty "right to know" goal; it looks a lot more like a "got-cha" game driven by competing political interests, not scientific ones.

Some related notes:
1. There is a huge difference between saying "be careful what you wish for" and suggesting anyone shroud the truth.
2. Just because people decide to tread lightly doesn't mean they lack interest in finding the facts. There will be a time and a place for finding them. Not much stays buried forever.
3. Personal opinion: the world right now needs to stop the spread and mutation of the disease much more than it needs to know where it came from. The world will eventually need to know exactly what happened to further the science. But is that today? To me, this isn't the time to dig. BUT I don't decide that for anyone but myself. What I meant to suggest is that people remember to factor in potential downsides when considering what they think needs to be done today.


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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 11 Sep 2021, 3:29 am, edited 5 times in total.

DW_a_mom
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11 Sep 2021, 3:14 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
MaxE wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Because Trump hates China, so they can’t agree with him on anything.

Trump also loves Israel, do you agree with him on that?

I love Israel too. I hope to make another visit someday.


Most Americans love Israel; it is a Protestant cultural thing to love the Jews and Israel - the Protestant churches revert the Old Testament way more than other churches, I am aware of that. I always repeat that: it is not a coincidence that both US and UK has supported Israel the most historically while the Catholic countries don’t.

But I find it funny that Rey is trying yo make me hate Trump because “he loves Israel” while his Biden has called himself a Zionist more than once..... sheeeshh. At least Trump succeeded in establishing peace between Israel and 2 Arab countries, at least he’s not helping Iran to become a nuclear state, like Biden is doing (we all know the restrictions in the nuclear deal would be BS, Iran will develop nuclear weapons).



I'm surprised you see Catholics and Protestants as different on feeling a connection to Israel; as a Catholic, I've always felt one. Catholics and Protestants read the same Bible, with the exception of one extra section in Catholic versions.

The biggest political difference on the Israel question for Americans is what "Israel" means: is it the people, or is it the government? It leads to a interesting mix of positions, depending on what is specifically under discussion. Conservatives (currently including most evangelicals) seem reluctant to question the Israel government's political decisions, even when the country has more authoritarian and aggressive leadership. On the liberal side, people are more likely to see the needs of the Israeli people as separate from their government, and feel the same right to question the nation's political decisions as a person would their own. If "Israel" is land and a government across the sea, one will be less concerned about identifying minor incidents of discrimination against Jews locally. If "Israel" is the people, one can protest the Palestinian policies of the government without being antisemitic.


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Pepe
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11 Sep 2021, 4:07 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
The issue I see is this: we need labs to study diseases in order to treat and contain them. Obviously we want it done as safely as possible. With the natural environment in China prone to originating new viruses, China is a natural place to do such study, and because viruses seldom stay in one place, we need international cooperation among scientists. That was the goal in creating the lab. If such labs become the target for complaints about the spread of a virus, that goal is basically off the table forever. I'm not saying if that is a good or bad thing; I saying that is the consequence I see developing.

What serves us best at this point? Learning all we can about how to contain and stop the spread of new viruses quickly, or playing a blame game? There will be a long term cost to the blame game: a shut down of science and experimentation. The ramifications will reach further than one lab in China. That may be fine with some people, this pandemic may make them feel the risk was never worth it. But I'm not sure everyone involved in the search for accountability realizes that squashing the future advancement of virology will be the cost. That loss isn't related to actual guilt as it may or may not exist; it is related to the willingness of the world's best and brightest to submit themselves to such scrutiny and suspicion. Understand all the likely ramifications when you push for something.



This is a faulty typical totalitarian logic (keeping things secret for the “greater good”); no, the world has the right to know the truth.


I am in total agreement with the blobfish.
How can I not be?
I am The Oracle of Truth, after all. 8)



Pepe
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11 Sep 2021, 4:10 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
MaxE wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Because Trump hates China, so they can’t agree with him on anything.

Trump also loves Israel, do you agree with him on that?

I love Israel too. I hope to make another visit someday.


Most Americans love Israel; it is a Protestant cultural thing to love the Jews and Israel - the Protestant churches revert the Old Testament way more than other churches, I am aware of that. I always repeat that: it is not a coincidence that both US and UK has supported Israel the most historically while the Catholic countries don’t.

But I find it funny that Rey is trying yo make me hate Trump because “he loves Israel” while his Biden has called himself a Zionist more than once..... sheeeshh. At least Trump succeeded in establishing peace between Israel and 2 Arab countries, at least he’s not helping Iran to become a nuclear state, like Biden is doing (we all know the restrictions in the nuclear deal would be BS, Iran will develop nuclear weapons).


I think Uncle Joe had a senior moment or two.
I think he meant to say he was a fascist. :mrgreen:

I am a bad, bad, older skunk. 8O



DW_a_mom
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11 Sep 2021, 4:41 am

Pepe wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
The issue I see is this: we need labs to study diseases in order to treat and contain them. Obviously we want it done as safely as possible. With the natural environment in China prone to originating new viruses, China is a natural place to do such study, and because viruses seldom stay in one place, we need international cooperation among scientists. That was the goal in creating the lab. If such labs become the target for complaints about the spread of a virus, that goal is basically off the table forever. I'm not saying if that is a good or bad thing; I saying that is the consequence I see developing.

What serves us best at this point? Learning all we can about how to contain and stop the spread of new viruses quickly, or playing a blame game? There will be a long term cost to the blame game: a shut down of science and experimentation. The ramifications will reach further than one lab in China. That may be fine with some people, this pandemic may make them feel the risk was never worth it. But I'm not sure everyone involved in the search for accountability realizes that squashing the future advancement of virology will be the cost. That loss isn't related to actual guilt as it may or may not exist; it is related to the willingness of the world's best and brightest to submit themselves to such scrutiny and suspicion. Understand all the likely ramifications when you push for something.



This is a faulty typical totalitarian logic (keeping things secret for the “greater good”); no, the world has the right to know the truth.


I am in total agreement with the blobfish.
How can I not be?
I am The Oracle of Truth, after all. 8)


As I explain above, I didn't mean to suggest there should be such a thing as keeping things secret. I didn't word well.


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Brictoria
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11 Sep 2021, 9:27 am

Quote:
Of the 27 scientists who wrote a letter in The Lancet medical journal dismissing the possibility that Covid-19 originated from a Wuhan lab, 26 have links to its Chinese researchers, their colleagues or its benefactors, a new investigation has revealed.

On March 7 last year, the influential journal published the letter in which the 27 scientists said they 'strongly condemned conspiracy theories' surrounding the origins of the coronavirus pandemic that has impacted all corners of the world.

All debate into whether Covid-19 had man-made origins or leaked from the lab in Wuhan - the Chinese city that was ground-zero for the virus - was effectively shut down by the letter.
Of the 27 scientists who wrote a letter in The Lancet medical journal dismissing the possibility that Covid-19 originated from the Wuhan Institute of Virology (pictured), 26 have links to its Chinese researchers, their colleagues or its benefactors, a new investigation has revealed

However, an investigation by The Daily Telegraph newspaper into the signatories has found that 26 of the 27 had some link to the Wuhan Institute of Virology, where the leak was suspected - calling into question their impartiality.

Signatories include Dr Peter Daszak, the British president of EcoHealth Alliance, which funnelled money into controversial research at a Wuhan Institute of Virology, and UK Government scientific adviser Sir Jeremy Farrar.

Only one - Dr Ronald Corley, a microbiology expert from Boston University - has been found to have no links back to funders or researchers at the Wuhan institute.

Below, the MailOnline looks at those signatories named by The Telegraph's investigation - and other key figures and organisations - to have links with the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9980015/26-Lancet-scientists-trashed-theory-Covid-leaked-Chinese-lab-links-Wuhan.html



Pepe
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11 Sep 2021, 11:05 pm

Brictoria wrote:
Quote:
Of the 27 scientists who wrote a letter in The Lancet medical journal dismissing the possibility that Covid-19 originated from a Wuhan lab, 26 have links to its Chinese researchers, their colleagues or its benefactors, a new investigation has revealed.

On March 7 last year, the influential journal published the letter in which the 27 scientists said they 'strongly condemned conspiracy theories' surrounding the origins of the coronavirus pandemic that has impacted all corners of the world.

All debate into whether Covid-19 had man-made origins or leaked from the lab in Wuhan - the Chinese city that was ground-zero for the virus - was effectively shut down by the letter.
Of the 27 scientists who wrote a letter in The Lancet medical journal dismissing the possibility that Covid-19 originated from the Wuhan Institute of Virology (pictured), 26 have links to its Chinese researchers, their colleagues or its benefactors, a new investigation has revealed

However, an investigation by The Daily Telegraph newspaper into the signatories has found that 26 of the 27 had some link to the Wuhan Institute of Virology, where the leak was suspected - calling into question their impartiality.

Signatories include Dr Peter Daszak, the British president of EcoHealth Alliance, which funnelled money into controversial research at a Wuhan Institute of Virology, and UK Government scientific adviser Sir Jeremy Farrar.

Only one - Dr Ronald Corley, a microbiology expert from Boston University - has been found to have no links back to funders or researchers at the Wuhan institute.

Below, the MailOnline looks at those signatories named by The Telegraph's investigation - and other key figures and organisations - to have links with the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9980015/26-Lancet-scientists-trashed-theory-Covid-leaked-Chinese-lab-links-Wuhan.html


The smoking gun cannon. 8O

They shall live in infamy in the anals annals of history. 8)

If I blindly believed that guff when it first came out, wouldn't my face be red, right now. :mrgreen:



Brictoria
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22 Sep 2021, 3:11 am

Quote:
Wuhan scientists were planning to release enhanced airborne coronaviruses into Chinese bat populations to inoculate them against diseases that could jump to humans, leaked grant proposals dating from 2018 show.

New documents show that just 18 months before the first Covid-19 cases appeared, researchers had submitted plans to release skin-penetrating nanoparticles containing “novel chimeric spike proteins” of bat coronaviruses into cave bats in Yunnan, China.

They also planned to create chimeric viruses, genetically enhanced to infect humans more easily, and requested $14million from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (Darpa) to fund the work.

Papers, confirmed as genuine by a former member of the Trump administration, show they were hoping to introduce “human-specific cleavage sites” to bat coronaviruses which would make it easier for the virus to enter human cells.

When Covid-19 was first genetically sequenced, scientists were puzzled about how the virus had evolved such a human-specific adaptation at the cleavage site on the spike protein, which is the reason it is so infectious.

The documents were released by Drastic, the web-based investigations team set up by scientists from across the world to look into the origins of Covid-19.

In a statement, Drastic said: “Given that we find in this proposal a discussion of the planned introduction of human-specific cleavage sites, a review by the wider scientific community of the plausibility of artificial insertion is warranted.”

The proposal also included plans to mix high-risk natural coronavirus strains with more infectious but less dangerous varieties.

The bid was submitted by British zoologist Peter Daszak of EcoHealth Alliance, the US-based organisation, which has worked closely with the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) researching bat coronaviruses.

Team members included Dr Shi Zhengli, the WIV researcher dubbed “bat woman”, pictured below, as well as US researchers from the University of North Carolina and the United States Geological Survey National Wildlife Health Centre.

Source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/09/21/wuhan-scientists-planned-releaseskin-penetrating-nanoparticles/



The_Face_of_Boo
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22 Sep 2021, 2:06 pm

Brictoria wrote:
Quote:
Wuhan scientists were planning to release enhanced airborne coronaviruses into Chinese bat populations to inoculate them against diseases that could jump to humans, leaked grant proposals dating from 2018 show.

New documents show that just 18 months before the first Covid-19 cases appeared, researchers had submitted plans to release skin-penetrating nanoparticles containing “novel chimeric spike proteins” of bat coronaviruses into cave bats in Yunnan, China.

They also planned to create chimeric viruses, genetically enhanced to infect humans more easily, and requested $14million from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (Darpa) to fund the work.

Papers, confirmed as genuine by a former member of the Trump administration, show they were hoping to introduce “human-specific cleavage sites” to bat coronaviruses which would make it easier for the virus to enter human cells.

When Covid-19 was first genetically sequenced, scientists were puzzled about how the virus had evolved such a human-specific adaptation at the cleavage site on the spike protein, which is the reason it is so infectious.

The documents were released by Drastic, the web-based investigations team set up by scientists from across the world to look into the origins of Covid-19.

In a statement, Drastic said: “Given that we find in this proposal a discussion of the planned introduction of human-specific cleavage sites, a review by the wider scientific community of the plausibility of artificial insertion is warranted.”

The proposal also included plans to mix high-risk natural coronavirus strains with more infectious but less dangerous varieties.

The bid was submitted by British zoologist Peter Daszak of EcoHealth Alliance, the US-based organisation, which has worked closely with the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) researching bat coronaviruses.

Team members included Dr Shi Zhengli, the WIV researcher dubbed “bat woman”, pictured below, as well as US researchers from the University of North Carolina and the United States Geological Survey National Wildlife Health Centre.

Source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/09/21/wuhan-scientists-planned-releaseskin-penetrating-nanoparticles/



How comes this isn’t big news?



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22 Sep 2021, 2:21 pm

*Wonders if we're going to eventually go to war with China*

I mean, everybody is purposely being provoked and separated around the world, the media focusing on lots of protests and riots, them being caused deliberately etc. They're riling people up and making them angry and setting them against each other deliberately. COVID might be their excuse to go to war with China while people are riled up and are of the "Us verses them" attitude.

8O


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