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Do we lack empathy or is it just different than NTs?

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HeroOfHyrule
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05 Apr 2021, 11:19 am

I think both NTs and autistic people have an okay amount of empathy, at least for other NT or autistic people. I don't have issues with recognizing when other autistic people are upset, or with feeling bad that they're upset.



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05 Apr 2021, 11:25 am

If empathy is "the capacity to understand or feel what another person is experiencing from within their frame of reference" (Wikipedia), then I have empathy -- I passed the "Sally Ann" test before I knew what it was -- but I also have the ability to reason for myself.  So if I am on a jury, and an accused drunk driver is crying on the witness stand over having killed someone on the road, then I will feel empathy for him -- I will understand his feelings -- but I will still vote for a conviction on all charges.


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05 Apr 2021, 11:31 am

carlos55 wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
When they talk about empathy from an autism point of view they mean the ability to see things from another persons perspective, which is supposedly lacking in autistic people.

I.e extreme example - Autistic person:

“I love cherry cola so everyone loves cherry cola I cannot perceive of a situation where someone would not love cherry cola.” “ What! you hate cherry flavor how can that be that doesn’t compute”

Unfortunately this is partly true of us evidenced by many ND advocates who view autism from their own perspective finding it hard to see how someone with more severe symptoms may have a different opinion to themselves in these matters.


Nope. Plenty of NTs think this too. What about those who can't understand the fact that a lot of autistics don't like socialising? And the fact that NTs think everyone should be the same and get freaked out when someone is different instead of understanding that not everyone can think the same?


Your possibly confusing lots of different things.

The ability to see things from another perspective is simply that, what the NT does about it is something else.

Good marketers know how to manipulate people by putting themselves in their shoes and tailoring their sales pitch accordingly. What they sell may be a con but they don’t care because that’s a different version of empathy more commonly thought of as simpathy and moral compass.

An NT may be able to put themselves in someone else’s shoes but completely ignore what they think possibly because they are high on the psychopathic scale. Think rich politician talking about poor people when he doesn’t want to help them.

The Sally Ann test measures this and your average autistic child fails the test as opposed to the average NT child.


This exactly portrays what I wrote in my first post in this thread. NT empathy definition is everything; autistic empathy definition is only being kind, caring and understanding. If an autistic decides to emotionally manipulate or decide to be mean to somebody for the purpose of upsetting that person, the autistic person is lacking empathy, even though they are doing exactly what empathy is described when it comes to NTs and empathy.

Autistic person is having a bad day and ignores someone who's being friendly. The friendly person get offended.
The autistic is being rude and should be scolded for expecting the friendly person is going to understand or guess why they are being rude.

NT person is having a bad day and ignores an autistic who's being friendly. The autistic person gets offended.
The autistic is being selfish and should be scolded for considering that the NT could be having a bad day and the autistic gets preached that they need to understand that other people have problems too.

See? The autistic is always the bad guy no matter what context. :roll:
And I hate these empathy threads.


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Juliette
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05 Apr 2021, 11:39 am

Technic1 wrote:
I’m sure aspies have empathy what do you think?


They got this so very wrong from the beginning ... those of us on the spectrum feel MORE than NTs ... hence our shutdowns, meltdowns, overwhelming emotions etc etc ...

An autistic person may feel emotion far more intensely than one who is not on the autism spectrum. (See “Asperger’s Theory Does About Face – A groundbreaking study suggests people with autism-spectrum disorders such as Asperger’s do not lack empathy – rather, they feel others’ emotions too intensely to cope.http://www.thestar.com/article/633688)



carlos55
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05 Apr 2021, 12:52 pm

Joe90 wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
Joe90 wrote:
carlos55 wrote:
When they talk about empathy from an autism point of view they mean the ability to see things from another persons perspective, which is supposedly lacking in autistic people.

I.e extreme example - Autistic person:

“I love cherry cola so everyone loves cherry cola I cannot perceive of a situation where someone would not love cherry cola.” “ What! you hate cherry flavor how can that be that doesn’t compute”

Unfortunately this is partly true of us evidenced by many ND advocates who view autism from their own perspective finding it hard to see how someone with more severe symptoms may have a different opinion to themselves in these matters.


Nope. Plenty of NTs think this too. What about those who can't understand the fact that a lot of autistics don't like socialising? And the fact that NTs think everyone should be the same and get freaked out when someone is different instead of understanding that not everyone can think the same?


Your possibly confusing lots of different things.

The ability to see things from another perspective is simply that, what the NT does about it is something else.

Good marketers know how to manipulate people by putting themselves in their shoes and tailoring their sales pitch accordingly. What they sell may be a con but they don’t care because that’s a different version of empathy more commonly thought of as simpathy and moral compass.

An NT may be able to put themselves in someone else’s shoes but completely ignore what they think possibly because they are high on the psychopathic scale. Think rich politician talking about poor people when he doesn’t want to help them.

The Sally Ann test measures this and your average autistic child fails the test as opposed to the average NT child.


This exactly portrays what I wrote in my first post in this thread. NT empathy definition is everything; autistic empathy definition is only being kind, caring and understanding. If an autistic decides to emotionally manipulate or decide to be mean to somebody for the purpose of upsetting that person, the autistic person is lacking empathy, even though they are doing exactly what empathy is described when it comes to NTs and empathy.

Autistic person is having a bad day and ignores someone who's being friendly. The friendly person get offended.
The autistic is being rude and should be scolded for expecting the friendly person is going to understand or guess why they are being rude.

NT person is having a bad day and ignores an autistic who's being friendly. The autistic person gets offended.
The autistic is being selfish and should be scolded for considering that the NT could be having a bad day and the autistic gets preached that they need to understand that other people have problems too.

See? The autistic is always the bad guy no matter what context. :roll:
And I hate these empathy threads.


Empathy is a sense nothing more nothing less.

Just like sight or smell, but unlike those 5 senses empathy is incorporated into the brain unlike the need for an external receptor like eyes & nose.

Its also a spectrum of ability among NT`s and autistic people, some are good some are poor, but autistic people tend to be exceptionally poor.

Empathy cannot be seen unlike blindness in others (sunglasses & white stick) so NT`s dont see the deficit in autistic people.

Also NT`s learn how to interpret & react to this sense through experience, learning that a particular behaviour is likely to get them punched in the face, make them look a d**k or fired from a job, gained from past experiences usually childhood & youth.

Sadly we dont have such luxuries.


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05 Apr 2021, 1:04 pm

Quote:
Its also a spectrum of ability among NT`s and autistic people, some are good some are poor, but autistic people tend to be exceptionally poor.


I choose to take that offence, as I don't have much that I'm good at but empathy is something everyone says I am good at, so if I get denied my only quality here on WP then I feel like leaving this site. You can't speak for every autistic.

Quote:
Also NT`s learn how to interpret & react to this sense through experience, learning that a particular behaviour is likely to get them punched in the face, make them look a d**k or fired from a job, gained from past experiences usually childhood & youth.


That's when I learned that stuff too.


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05 Apr 2021, 1:29 pm

Joe90 wrote:
Quote:
Its also a spectrum of ability among NT`s and autistic people, some are good some are poor, but autistic people tend to be exceptionally poor.


I choose to take that offence, as I don't have much that I'm good at but empathy is something everyone says I am good at, so if I get denied my only quality here on WP then I feel like leaving this site. You can't speak for every autistic.

Quote:
Also NT`s learn how to interpret & react to this sense through experience, learning that a particular behaviour is likely to get them punched in the face, make them look a d**k or fired from a job, gained from past experiences usually childhood & youth.


That's when I learned that stuff too.


Who said im talking about you!

Although if your unable to read a comment that`s a medical fact i.e autism & theory of mind deficit without taking it personally or linking it to you being on WP, i dont know what to say to you.

Maybe you just proved my original point, many people with autism have difficulty seeing beyond themselves, "i have autism & great empathy so empathy is not a problem among other autistic people"

Empathy deficit / theory of mind in autism is a biological fact maybe yours is better than many NTs who knows, but not everyone is the same, & in autism its particularly bad on average, which is what im saying.

That`s why therapists give those emotional cards - happy, sad face etc.. to autistic kids to name the emotion


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05 Apr 2021, 2:22 pm

Quote:
but autistic people tend to be exceptionally poor.


It's this bit, I don't think it is typical among autistics to have ''exceptionally poor'' empathy.
I knew you didn't aim it at me, but as an autistic I just took some offence to it. It's a bit like if someone said ''dyslexics tend to be exceptionally poor at reading'', it might offend some dyslexics who can actually read well, because it might make them feel invalidated with the skill they do have.

It is not autistic to not look beyond the self. It's a sort of sensitivity. Usually sensitive autistics and allistics with low self-esteem take things personally or take more offence to things.


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05 Apr 2021, 2:30 pm

Joe90 wrote:
Quote:
but autistic people tend to be exceptionally poor.


It's this bit, I don't think it is typical among autistics to have ''exceptionally poor'' empathy.
I knew you didn't aim it at me, but as an autistic I just took some offence to it. It's a bit like if someone said ''dyslexics tend to be exceptionally poor at reading'', it might offend some dyslexics who can actually read well, because it might make them feel invalidated with the skill they do have.

It is not autistic to not look beyond the self. It's a sort of sensitivity. Usually sensitive autistics and allistics with low self-esteem take things personally or take more offence to things.


Exceptionally poor seems like an over-simplification. Many of us are reasonably sensitive when it comes to empathy but also struggle with interpreting it in a useful manner in the moment. That difficulty in interpreting in and acting appropriately to it gets over-simplied to aren't very good at because for many of us that's how it plays out regardless of whether or not we possess it.

Worse, some of us have those struggles but are also overly sensitive to empathy so every potential error made related to empathy becomes something we'll fret over for ages afterwards.

Writing one's self off as incapable of demonstrating empathy to some extent feels like a coping mechanism for backlash resulting from struggles with using one's empathy. Might fixating on developing empathy like you appear to have be the mirror image of that coping mechanism? That might explain both the skill (no denial, you're sincerely empathetic) and the sensitivity to suggestions that we're likely to lack it.

Basically, we don't lack it but it might require more effort to be aware of it, leading to it being more of an all or nothing thing compared to allistic individuals.


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Last edited by funeralxempire on 05 Apr 2021, 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HeroOfHyrule
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05 Apr 2021, 2:31 pm

Juliette wrote:
Technic1 wrote:
I’m sure aspies have empathy what do you think?


They got this so very wrong from the beginning ... those of us on the spectrum feel MORE than NTs ... hence our shutdowns, meltdowns, overwhelming emotions etc etc ...

An autistic person may feel emotion far more intensely than one who is not on the autism spectrum. (See “Asperger’s Theory Does About Face – A groundbreaking study suggests people with autism-spectrum disorders such as Asperger’s do not lack empathy – rather, they feel others’ emotions too intensely to cope.http://www.thestar.com/article/633688)

I can have very good empathy when I recognize that someone is upset/hurt, but I get overwhelmed by it very easily. If I'm around someone crying it makes me uncomfortable, and it's not because I don't care, but because I get very upset and don't know what to do or how to handle it.



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05 Apr 2021, 2:34 pm

I have a lot of empathy for most people and I have empathy for animals.


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05 Apr 2021, 2:45 pm

I remember this NT woman I used to work with really hated cats (an extreme dog lover), and when she'd heard her neighbour's cat had died she was laughing. She said she just didn't know what people see in cats and that she doesn't feel anything if a cat is hurt or dies. I told her that some people happen to like cats, including me, but she just scoffed. And when I told her my cat was unwell she just heartlessly said "whack it over the head!" I did feel quite upset when she said that.
I'm a cat lover and not so keen on dogs but I still respect that other people like dogs and I wouldn't laugh if a dog is hurt or dies, in fact I get upset. I don't mind people having opinions but when they start getting heartless it isn't very nice. But I try to be open-minded - I like some dogs, and if someone has a pet dog that they love I will understand that and think that they love their dog like I love my cat so what gives me the right to badmouth dogs to dog-owners?


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05 Apr 2021, 2:46 pm

Just out of interest, has anybody read Dr. Simon Baron Cohen's book "Zero degrees of empathy".
I have not, but i think that his writings may explain more comprehensively why he thinks people with ASD lack empathy.

I wonder if what he is talking about is the intuitive skill that NT people have to automatically recognise when someone is suffering due to their circumstances and empathise with them automatically, with little intellectual inquiry.

Personally, i consider myself to be very empathetic in many circumstances, although, i have to admit.
If there is a bad history between myself and the other person, for example, someone who spent years victimising me suddenly falls on hard times. I don't always find it easy to have empathy for them. I thought that would be normal though.

Perhaps i just feel emotion stronger than normal people. Whether good happy nice emotions, or bad, nasty, hateful emotions. I can at times experience hate extremely strongly. This does not mean that i commit violent crimes.
I am not violent unless in self defence.



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05 Apr 2021, 2:52 pm

Quote:
, for example, someone who spent years victimising me suddenly falls on hard times. I don't always find it easy to have empathy for them. I thought that would be normal though.


It is normal.


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05 Apr 2021, 3:23 pm

Quote:
Bullies dominate, blame and use others. They lack empathy and foresight and have contempt for the weak. They see weaker kids as their target., and don't accept the consequences of their actions. They crave power and attention.


Quote:
Bullied bullies get relief from feeling helpless and overpower others

Most bullies don’t understand how wrong their behavior is and how it makes the person being bullied feel.

No matter what kind of bully someone is, they have not learned kindness, compassion and respect.


A lot of Aspies on WP have dealt with lots of bullying, much more than I've even experienced, and I'm not talking about light teasing or banter. I'm talking about nasty bullying. I know an autistic boy who was used as a human football in college. They'd literally kick him like a football and think it's a game, and had no feelings of remorse. They also made fun of his weight and called him names, and if he cried they'd just beat him up and call him a baby. He'd come home covered in bruises each day, until the bullies got found out and they got expelled from college and even charged by the police for causing physical harm to another human being. It was actually in the local newspaper, and it even mentioned in the article that these bullies "lacked empathy for this young man". It was actually quite disturbing to think about what they did. I could never do a thing like that to anybody.
But, sadly enough, it seems that a lot of Aspies here have experienced similar bullying to this by NTs.


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05 Apr 2021, 4:25 pm

Technic1 wrote:
So what is it when you see someone about to injure themselves and your heart hurts? When it kind of ‘indents’
Does your heart hurt for other people!?!

You speak of affective empathy. Or sympathy.

My own answer is yes.

But you know what? I don't like it!
I never liked it. And that's how it is for as long as I can remember.

Why? Unlike cognitive empathy, it's not as useful. So what if I feel for that person?
Am I competent enough to help that person? Who knows! Or determine that it's even my business or if it's an appropriate to do? But what, I could care less about appropriate.

It's annoying as having misophonia -- and I overcame misophonia.


If emotions makes a human... Then I feel too human.
And I don't like being human. I never did. Not even as a child.

And also, 'empathy' never made me a better human or person -- it made me worse. But there's no use regretting it.





Dear OP, I'll give you some terms to research about the topic related before paguntugin ko mga ulo ng tao dito something goes out of hand. :o

Because this is a sensitive topic as you can see...
Along with it's some summary definition and context.

Show Spoiler
The three types of empathy -- definitions divided into three specific forms to determine which is which; namely cognitive empathy, affective empathy and compassionate empathy.

The third category is usually the mix of the first two.
Clinically speaking, autistics do poorly in general at the first category.
The second category is relative to the trait called alexithymia.
The layterms is relatively defined by the second and third type -- not really distinguishing from the first. This is where the mix up came from.

Before this and how empathy was known to be divided into three, somewhere along the line...
The general context of empathy shifted from sympathetic like social emotional literacy, to association with morality and humanity.


Alexithymia is more to do with emotional literacy and comprehension -- which affects interpersonal relations and socialization.
This trait is not exclusive to autistics, but it is more common.


The widespread notion of autistics lack empathy came from;
A book that is titled as 'The science of evil'.
This is where autism is compared alongside with anti-social personality disorders and the like.
This is where a LOT of outrage misunderstandings came from.


The double empathy mean empathy is a two way thing, not some one sided thing where there's only one and correct way to measure or determine empathy.
It is also an argument that the notion of autistics are lacking empathy is false, that in reality it's also true no to NTs.



To summarize what I've observed;
Somewhere along the line, English seem to mix up the definitions with how empathy is defined.

Then a literal English person :lol: (pun intended) wrote about the book that already mixes up it's lay definition of empathy with something else that is more technical, and got autism mixed up with how anti social personality disorders are defined in layterms.

In an attempt to fix the mix up...

Definitions of empathy was divided.
Then the 'why' autistics 'lack empathy'. They found alexithymia.
And for the 'why' autistics do not 'lack empathy'. They created the double empathy problem.


I'm sure there are some missing parts. Maybe someone else may fill a detail or so for you.
Maybe one can correct the time of events or how it played out.

Read with discernment. Maybe with discretion if one finds any.


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