'White Lives Matter' rallies flop as hardly anyone shows up
19 Apr 2021, 7:44 pm
I just don't want to be in a room with people who assume, by the fact that I'm white, that I'm a racist, and that I've gained everything I acquired through "white privilege." And that oppressed peoples cannot be racist, by virtue of them being oppressed.
I'm not saying you've necessarily stated that. I'm just sort of reacting to some of the "woke" ideology. Not to you, per se.
funeralxempire
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19 Apr 2021, 7:56 pm
kraftiekortie wrote:
I just don't want to be in a room with people who assume, by the fact that I'm white, that I'm a racist, and that I've gained everything I acquired through "white privilege." And that oppressed peoples cannot be racist, by virtue of them being oppressed.
I'm not saying you've necessarily stated that. I'm just sort of reacting to some of the "woke" ideology. Not to you, per se.
I'm not saying you've necessarily stated that. I'm just sort of reacting to some of the "woke" ideology. Not to you, per se.
Who though? Have you encountered that person anywhere or are they a boogieman?
Like when I talk about extremists who favour oppression I can point them out and point to things they've said to substantiate my concerns. On the other hand a lot of the anti-woke/SJW/cancel-culture/whateveritsbeingcalledthisweek that both conservative and liberal posters here toss around doesn't ever have a real face or when it does it's someone who lacks currency even among most of the people they're claimed to represent.
That's specifically why I've become more aggressive on this issue because there's a lot of false equivalency by people who claim to be centrists when it's not actually how things are. Being neutral and being objective aren't the same thing and if no one actually making the points that you raise as 'oh, look how crazy either side can be' then you're actually helping the far-right crazies by spreading the narrative that 'oh the crazies are equal on both sides' when they're just not.
There's actual people who believe non-whites and women shouldn't be allowed to vote. There's actual people who believe that letting immigrants vote dilutes their vote and therefore needs to stopped.
There aren't actually people who believe that being white means you have never had to struggle at all in your existence and that you have never worked for anything you've earned.
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19 Apr 2021, 7:57 pm
funeralxempire wrote:
Has anyone ever suggested that benefiting from privilege means one faces no hurdles?
I guess hardly anyone actually says that, but some people do imply it, unfortunately, and some other people clearly follow suit with the same sentiment. Nuance is hard, reductionism is easy. Whether they realize it or not, I don't know, but it certainly makes the debate a lot less productive for everybody. And no matter how few those people may be, if they're visible at all, they're going to be the more visible ones, because outrage and offense are memorable. So they often turn into the first thing that pops into people's minds when the subject is concerned. It creates a need to deliberately disavow those implied positions. Though I guess the fact that it's only ever implied makes it all that much harder to get things straight.
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Last edited by threetoed snail on 19 Apr 2021, 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
19 Apr 2021, 7:59 pm
I have actually encountered these sorts of folks. I have been told that I am automatically racist because I am white. No boogeymen.
Anyway.....obviously, I'm glad nobody showed up to that stupid rally......
Last edited by kraftiekortie on 19 Apr 2021, 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
funeralxempire
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19 Apr 2021, 8:07 pm
kraftiekortie wrote:
I have actually encountered these sorts of folks. I have been told that I am automatically racist because I am white. No boogeymen.
Are they significant media figures or just random schmucks? Are they part of armed militias training to overthrow your government?
If they're just random schmucks they're not nearly as grave of concern as the people they're being considered the equivalent of so it's probably not reasonable to compare them as though they're equal.
And honestly, you, I and every other white person has blindspots we've failed to acknowledge so get over it. Even PoC have blindspots when it comes to other categories of PoC. No, you're not personally racist, you're not ideologically racist but there's valid concerns that you and I don't even know about because we've never had to consider it**. Someone poorly explaining this by calling you racist isn't the end of the world and doesn't make that person an extremist or a bigot.
**and not having to consider it is a privilege we didn't ask for but still enjoy, just like Tim_Tex raised in his thread about discrimination and not wanting to wonder if it was merit or disability that got him overlooked; every extra category is one other reason you mighta got overlooked but maybe it isn't...
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19 Apr 2021, 8:13 pm
I live in a place that would never have "militias" like that. And do you think I would listen to anything such people who are in these "militias" would say?
The people who told me this were both black folks and white college students. None were economically disadvantaged, as far as I know.
I like people. I don't like some of the ideology that people come up with.
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19 Apr 2021, 8:26 pm
kraftiekortie wrote:
I live in a place that would never have "militias" like that. And do you think I would listen to anything such people who are in these "militias" would say?
The people who told me this were both black folks and white college students. None were economically disadvantaged, as far as I know.
I like people. I don't like some of the ideology that people come up with.
The people who told me this were both black folks and white college students. None were economically disadvantaged, as far as I know.
I like people. I don't like some of the ideology that people come up with.
New York state has militias like that Kraftie. So do most of the surrounding states.
While I don't believe you'd directly cooperate with such people when the arguments they use start being picked up by centrists you advance them that's why I explicitly tell you that's what you're doing if you're doing it, not to suggest you're like them, but to warn you because I don't think you're like them and wouldn't advance those talking points if you dug deeper into where all the reaction against more recent social justice causes comes from.
If you're mostly in a fairly liberal bubble it's easy to believe that the radical views a few college students espouse are more mainstream than they really are. Students are usually pretty young right? Sometimes it takes awhile for nuance to develop. Those people are far less representative of even 'woke' people than the armed militias and the ideology they espouse is of the far-right. Those people are literally being voted into state legislatures and even Congress. There were state legislators who participated in the treason of Jan 6th. A few crazy college students don't hold the same influence.
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19 Apr 2021, 8:49 pm
kraftiekortie wrote:
There aren't any militias in NYC proper, as far as I know.
Upstate, of course, they'll even be Confederate flags, KKK idiots, the whole nine yards.
Upstate, of course, they'll even be Confederate flags, KKK idiots, the whole nine yards.
So because they're at least 90 minutes away they're not a concern or capable of exerting significant influence on the political system?
Biden's election wasn't guaranteed and the folks who get their marching orders from Tucker and Hannity haven't been hiding their agenda which happens to sound nearly the same as the people who used to be dismissed as just the crazies from /pol/ and a bunch of racist uncles.
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ASPartOfMe
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19 Apr 2021, 9:17 pm
funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Some of us understand that a bunch of what is described as antiracism is a hell of a lot more then literally opposing racism in a similar way that a lot of "White Lives Matter" is not literally about white lives mattering.
Often it's about addressing racism on a deeper level than just directly confronting racist actions, that doesn't mean it isn't about addressing racism.
An example would be with the 1619 Project. Generally speaking there's a certain accepted framework when teaching American history. This framework intentionally ignores certain perspectives which makes it easier to downplay the contributions of black Americans and essentially ignores how their experiences and history is part of American history. Breaking that traditional framework is required to reexamine how deeply ingrained racism is within the society but doing so is required in order to actually confront racism.
The 1619 project is an important part of it but some of it goes beyond that to meritocracy is racism, colorblindness is racism, to white fragility, to viewing every action or policy through the lens of systematic racism. If you ascribe negative characteristics such as racism or fragility to the race of people that is racism. An argument can be made that this particular form of racism is not as bad as white supremacy due to power dynamics or that this particular form of racism is necessary to undo the harm of past white racism in order to create equity but that does not make it not racist.
I fail to see how noticing white fragility, aka pointing out that some people are overly sensitive to the concept of whiteness being criticized or to having the concept of white privilege openly discussed is racist. What else would that tendency be called? No one's ascribing this as an inherent trait white people share, merely a trait that is common within that group. Being more open to criticism like you've demonstrated (or like I've had to learn) makes one less fragile.
Colourblindness by and large fails to address racism and serves as a convenient excuse for not giving a s**t among a lot of the generational cohort who grew up embracing it. It's not universal but a lot of people immediately pivot to defending themselves as not personally racist with some sort of 'i've got x ys where x is an ethnic group and y is a relationship. I encounter these sorts of arguments a lot on message boards related to some of the hobbies I'm into because they're dominated by conservative leaning boomer and silent generation types.
But yes, it's problematic and the problem it contributes to is racism so as much as the intention was almost certainly positive, it really misses the point for actually improving things.
It is not some white people are fragile. In Critical Race Theory, all white people are privileged/racists due to power dynamics. Power dynamics replace bigotry and discrimination as the central feature of racism. I have read stuff about colorblindness is bad the vast majority of times it is not some people use colorblindness to excuse their racism or fool themselves it is colorblindness has been a failure it needs to be canceled.
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19 Apr 2021, 9:33 pm
ASPartOfMe wrote:
It is not some white people are fragile. In Critical Race Theory, all white people are privileged/racists due to power dynamics. Power dynamics replace bigotry and discrimination as the central feature of racism. I have read stuff about colorblindness is bad the vast majority of times it is not some people use colorblindness to excuse their racism or fool themselves it is colorblindness has been a failure it needs to be canceled.
It actually is though that they're fragile. Is it unfair to point out that white people benefit from privilege as I just defined earlier or that they have blindspots to racism that make it easy to contribute to the problem not through malice but simply by not being aware?
Some people get butthurt and put on their befuddled Tucker face in response to that criticism no matter how many times it's explained what is actually meant. At some point one needs to accept the audience is the issue, not the message or the way it's delivered.
Getting butthurt and screaming about PC this and cancel culture that as these types do when someone pointed out their racism is being fragile. Listening to the feedback sometimes involves having to suffer a wound to one's ego but sometimes growth involves pain. No one likes being told they can do better and that better is expected from them, but getting butthurt won't fix it.
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Watching liberals try to solve societal problems without a systemic critique/class consciousness is like watching someone in the dark try to flip on the light switch, but they keep turning on the garbage disposal instead.
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う
Last edited by funeralxempire on 19 Apr 2021, 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ASPartOfMe
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19 Apr 2021, 9:35 pm
kraftiekortie wrote:
I just don't want to be in a room with people who assume, by the fact that I'm white, that I'm a racist, and that I've gained everything I acquired through "white privilege." And that oppressed peoples cannot be racist, by virtue of them being oppressed.
Stay away from this school and these schools.
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19 Apr 2021, 9:43 pm
funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
It is not some white people are fragile. In Critical Race Theory, all white people are privileged/racists due to power dynamics. Power dynamics replace bigotry and discrimination as the central feature of racism. I have read stuff about colorblindness is bad the vast majority of times it is not some people use colorblindness to excuse their racism or fool themselves it is colorblindness has been a failure it needs to be canceled.
It actually is though that they're fragile. Is it unfair to point out that white people benefit from privilege as I just defined earlier or that they have blindspots to racism that make it easy to contribute to the problem not through malice but simply by not being aware?
Some people get butthurt and put on their befuddled Tucker face in response to that criticism no matter how many times it's explained what is actually meant. At some point one needs to accept the audience is the issue, not the message or the way it's delivered.
Getting butthurt and screaming about PC this and cancel culture that as these types do when someone pointed out their racism is being fragile. Listening to the feedback sometimes involves having to suffer a wound to one's ego but sometimes growth involves pain. No one likes being told they can do better and that better is expected from them, but getting butthurt won't fix it.
A real problem is being defined incorrectly. The issue is whites have a much better chance of being treated fairly or unfairly well and black people have more of a chance of being treated unfairly. Not that being white automatically grants you privilege. Put it another way not being pulled over for driving while white is not a privilege but the way it is supposed to be. I feel the same way about "NT Privilage" .
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funeralxempire
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19 Apr 2021, 9:55 pm
kraftiekortie wrote:
Now you’re putting thoughts in my head which I don’t have.
Meet me. Then judge me.
I sense you got me wrong.
I would be a Social Democrat were I European.
Meet me. Then judge me.
I sense you got me wrong.
I would be a Social Democrat were I European.
I know you're basically a centrist on social issues and a social democrat on others, I'm not suggesting that you're aligned with the far-right ideologically.
I'm just saying there's people 90 minutes away from you who are training like they're in Al Qaeda and yet you seem to talk more about cancel culture and college kids who lack nuance.
They openly talk about how "most people living in the United States today—certainly more than half—are not Americans in any meaningful sense of the term" and just tried to overthrow your government. On the other side some kids use racist a little more broadly than you'd like.
Those are not equal threats.
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funeralxempire
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19 Apr 2021, 9:56 pm
ASPartOfMe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
It is not some white people are fragile. In Critical Race Theory, all white people are privileged/racists due to power dynamics. Power dynamics replace bigotry and discrimination as the central feature of racism. I have read stuff about colorblindness is bad the vast majority of times it is not some people use colorblindness to excuse their racism or fool themselves it is colorblindness has been a failure it needs to be canceled.
It actually is though that they're fragile. Is it unfair to point out that white people benefit from privilege as I just defined earlier or that they have blindspots to racism that make it easy to contribute to the problem not through malice but simply by not being aware?
Some people get butthurt and put on their befuddled Tucker face in response to that criticism no matter how many times it's explained what is actually meant. At some point one needs to accept the audience is the issue, not the message or the way it's delivered.
Getting butthurt and screaming about PC this and cancel culture that as these types do when someone pointed out their racism is being fragile. Listening to the feedback sometimes involves having to suffer a wound to one's ego but sometimes growth involves pain. No one likes being told they can do better and that better is expected from them, but getting butthurt won't fix it.
A real problem is being defined incorrectly. The issue is whites have a much better chance of being treated fairly or unfairly well and black people have more of a chance of being treated unfairly. Not that being white automatically grants you privilege. Put it another way not being pulled over for driving while white is not a privilege but the way it is supposed to be. I feel the same way about "NT Privilage" .
Being exempt from certain struggles is a privilege. Not having to bear certain burdens is a privilege.
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Watching liberals try to solve societal problems without a systemic critique/class consciousness is like watching someone in the dark try to flip on the light switch, but they keep turning on the garbage disposal instead.
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う
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