ASD and Schizophrenia Spectrum and Other Psychotic Disorders

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FranzOren
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14 Apr 2021, 1:20 pm

Are ASD and Schizophrenia Spectrum and Other Psychotic Disorders very similar?

There sometimes is psychotic component to having Autism Spectrum Disorder.


Examples of these psychotic symptoms that started during developmental stage period and with late age of onset, atypical symptomatology, or subthreshold symptomatology:

* Delusional view of how to communicate with others
* Delusional interests and repetitive patterns of behaviors
* Distorted thinking
* Preoccupation with fantasies that interfere and that are not normal to have at a certain age depending on social, cultural and religious norms.
* Delusional perception of the world
* Abnormal visual and auditory sensory perpetration of the world
* MIRRORED-SELF MISIDENTIFICATION - The delusion that the individual in the mirror that you are a child, even though you are an older teen or an adult
* Delusion that your routine is more important than anything else



FranzOren
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20 Apr 2021, 1:44 pm

IQ and delusions has nothing to do with Autism.

I am sorry for using the wrong word!

I just want to validate that there is something wrong with my brain.



ImeldaJace
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20 Apr 2021, 3:26 pm

SOME symptoms of ASD can look similar to SOME symptoms of schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders. But it very important to note that the causes of the symptoms are different. Here's an analogy that might help: Say that there are two people who go to the doctor because they have severe pain in their right leg. Their legs look the same from the outside but when the doctor examines and takes x-rays he finds that one person has a broken bone while the other person has a torn muscle. Both patients have pain but for different reasons. It is also possible to have BOTH ASD and a psychotic disorder and in that case they have symptoms that are caused by both. (imagine if a third person went to the doctor with pain in their leg and the doctor found that the person had a broken bone and a torn muscle.)

When a clinician is diagnosing a person they are looking at the whole picture of all the symptoms that the person has, not just on each symptom individually. It is the collection of symptoms that leads to the diagnosis. For instance a person might have difficulty with hygiene and reading facial expressions. But the psychologist or psychiatrist is also going to look at if a person also has hallucinations, delusions, or certain type of disorganized speech (schizophrenia) or if the person has certain difficulties in social interactions and communication and some sort of restricted patterns or behavior or interests that are characteristic of autism. Note that the symptoms of ASD and schizophrenia that are similar only make up a few of the possible symptoms of one or the other.

Here are some quotes from the DSM 5 about the difference between ASD and schizophrenia and when to diagnose a person with both. It's important to note that the DSM is meant to guide professionals in diagnosing because it takes years of training to learn how to figure out the specific cause of symptoms and properly diagnose.

Quote:
If there is a history of autism spectrum disorder or a communication disorder of childhood onset, the additional diagnosis of schizophrenia is made only if prominent delusions or hallucinations, in addition to the other required symptoms of schizophrenia, are also present for at least 1 month (or less if successfully treated).


Quote:
Autism spectrum disorder or communication disorders
These disorders may also have symptoms resembling a psychotic episode but are distinguished by their respective deficits in social interaction with repetitive and restricted behaviors and other cognitive and communication deficits. An individual with autism spectrum disorder or communication disorder must have symptoms that meet full criteria for schizophrenia, with prominent hallucinations or delusions for at least 1 month, in order to be diagnosed with schizophrenia as a comorbid condition.


Quote:
Schizophrenia [vs Autism]
Schizophrenia with childhood onset usually develops after a period of normal, or near normal, development. A prodromal state has been described in which social impairment and atypical interests and beliefs occur, which could be confused with the social deficits seen in autism spectrum disorder. Hallucinations and delusions, which are defining features of schizophrenia, are not features of autism spectrum disorder. However, clinicians must take into account the potential for individuals with autism spectrum disorder to be concrete in their interpretation of questions regarding the key features of schizophrenia (e.g., “Do you hear voices when no one is there?” ”Yes [on the radio]”).


If someone has both schizophrenia and autism it could be difficult to figure out which condition is the primary cause of certain shared symptoms. But as my abnormal psychology professor pointed out, in that case it can be more important to figure out a way to support the person in dealing with the symptom than it is to try and tease out which condition is causing the symptom. For instance a symptom of both conditions can be difficulty reading facial expressions. For someone who has both autism and schizophrenia, it would probably be impossible to figure out which condition is the cause, and it doesn't really matter since the support would be the same for dealing with that symptom: the support would involve helping teach the person how to recognize and interpret different facial expressions.




With all that being said, symptoms of autism are NOT caused by delusions or hallucinations like they are with psychotic disorders. For instance, in autism abnormal sensory perception is caused by the brain processing sensory input differently, but in a psychotic disorder abnormal sensory perception is caused by the person hallucinating something that is not there. And yes, an autistic person might feel that or appear to act like their routine is more important than other people's, but that is not due to a false belief (delusion). It is because routines can be more necessary for an autistic person to be able to function than routines are for neurotypicals. And that person might have difficulties with perspective taking and could have trouble understanding that other people could have different routines that are also important.


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ImeldaJace
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20 Apr 2021, 4:27 pm

FranzOren wrote:
I just want to validate that there is something wrong with my brain.


I understand wanting validation for what you are going through and for wanting an exact label. It's important to understand that a diagnosis of a condition such as schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, delusional disorder etc are really just that: they are labels that are given to BEST describe what is going on with a person. There can be a lot of overlap between the different psychotic and schizophrenia spectrum disorders. It takes an experienced psychologist or psychiatrist to figure out which label best fits the person. Also, labels can change over time as new symptoms become apparent and old ones fade.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but from your posts I get the sense that you feel that what you have been diagnosed with doesn't seem to fit all that is going on from your perspective. Or that you are unsure that all you experience fits under the diagnoses you have been given. Have you talked to the clinician that is treating you about how you feel? They will better able to explain why you have one diagnosis instead of another than strangers on the internet would be able to explain. For instance I am not a professional and can only give you general information about psychotic disorders while your clinician (whether that be a psychiatrist, psychologist, therapist etc) will be able to explain to you why you have a diagnosis of, for example, Delusional Disorder with depression and mania vs a diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder.

To give you some examples from my own life, I have severe anxiety and I have been given many different labels for it over the years. They include Generalized Anxiety Disorder, Panic Disorder, Social Anxiety Disorder, OCD, PTSD, and Anxiety Disorder not otherwise specified (NOS). I have also had symptoms that met the diagnostic criteria for Specific Phobia and Agoraphobia though I was never officially diagnosed with them because I had other labels at the time that better described my anxiety overall. Right now my current diagnosis for my anxiety is PTSD(complex), Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and OCD because together the diagnoses describe the overall picture of my anxiety at the moment. But the labels could change again. For example I no longer have a diagnosis of Panic Disorder because my Panic attacks have become few and far between but I could get re-diagnosed with Panic Disorder if my panic attacks become more frequent to the point that it is important to address them as an major feature of what is going on with my anxiety. What's important is that I am receiving proper treatment for my symptoms, that my doctor and therapist understand my symptoms and that I also understand my symptoms, not the specific label.


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FranzOren
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20 Apr 2021, 7:29 pm

It makes sense. Thank you!



Earthbound_Alien
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21 Apr 2021, 12:17 am

No I can tell you as someone whom has had autistic symptoms since I was less than 3 years old, that autism is not psychotic.

I have also had symptoms (hallucinations) of schizophrenia for about 3 years (I am now 45) but I was autistic before I was schizophrenic.

But my autism is rational and my schizophrenia is not (ie my voices keep trying to feed me delusions which I won't take on bored because they are illogical or irrational or there is no evidence to support them).

On the bright side the schizophrenia has made me more intelligent in some ways...it has made me more socially aware where as as a teen I was oblivious and a complete social idiot (not just awkward)...

I seem to be smarter as a schizo than I was as an autistic.

However I still have crap social skills.

And yes I was a chronic day dreamer as a young one but I know the difference between fantasy and reality, even now.

Autism is not a psychotic disorder.



Earthbound_Alien
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21 Apr 2021, 12:20 am

What bothers me is my voices are obsessed with narcissism...I couldn't fooking give a crap about ego either way and its piddling me off. I am now at the point that I am so fed up with the ego based codswallop I am going to start taking the piss out of it.

When I am doing a krisskross I just want to do the krisskross...I don't give a fork how worthy it makes me.



Earthbound_Alien
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21 Apr 2021, 12:21 am

They want me to take emotional support for my self hatred...I don't have any cause I don't actually give a Sh*t

And I have an aversion to the egoistic way of thinking...the belief system attached to it needs to come down and so does the system in this world. I am immune to that belief system and always have been.



Earthbound_Alien
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21 Apr 2021, 12:27 am

If I had been neurotypical I would have been a danger to this system as it stands....

On saying that the schizophrenia has helped in a way...I am more intelligent in certain ways, more aware and they have taken my special interests so I need a new focus (obsession or whatever).
I think the present system and belief systems need to be destroyed and rebuilt again.

This is what happens when you make a humanitarian austistic with no interest in ego schizophrenic.

They will never get self hatred.

All they will ever get is my disgust.



Earthbound_Alien
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21 Apr 2021, 12:30 am

PN I am protective of the vulnerable ones...and I am protective of autistic people.



FranzOren
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21 Apr 2021, 8:44 am

It makes sense. Thank you!



Joe90
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21 Apr 2021, 12:51 pm

Every neurological disorder shares SOME traits/symptoms with autism, which is why I don't call ALL non-autistics neurotypicals.


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FranzOren
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21 Apr 2021, 1:06 pm

I agree!



Joe90
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21 Apr 2021, 1:09 pm

It's like Fragile-X syndrome can be very similar to autism (difficulty making friends, stimming, sensory issues and lack of eye contact), but one can have FX syndrome without having autism and vice versa.


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FranzOren
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21 Apr 2021, 1:10 pm

There are also many none-autistic developmental disorders that looks related to ASD.