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kraftiekortie
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09 Jun 2021, 11:14 am

Frankly, I see little justification for voting for Trump. I felt this way when he was elected; and the January 6th incident more than confirmed my impressions.

I'm not going to refuse to hang out with somebody just because that person voted for Trump----but the idea of voting for him, to me, makes little sense.



ironpony
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09 Jun 2021, 12:30 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Unfortunately, we've been under a two party system, for all intents and purposes, since the 19th century.


Have other parties ever attempted to become part of the election? For example, BLM seems to be rising and growing greatly, and with a lot of money lately, could they try to get in for example?



funeralxempire
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09 Jun 2021, 12:48 pm

ironpony wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Unfortunately, we've been under a two party system, for all intents and purposes, since the 19th century.


Have other parties ever attempted to become part of the election? For example, BLM seems to be rising and growing greatly, and with a lot of money lately, could they try to get in for example?


BLM is too focused on a narrow set of issues to become an effective political party.

There have been attempts in the US, like when Ross Perot ran as a Reform party candidate, or when Ralph Nader ran as a Green, but the two major parties have so much inertia that it's usually turned out to be more beneficial to participate as a faction within one of them and to try to lobby them to embrace your agenda (and if the numbers exist, to primary opponents of your faction).


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VegetableMan
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09 Jun 2021, 1:10 pm

ironpony wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Unfortunately, we've been under a two party system, for all intents and purposes, since the 19th century.


Have other parties ever attempted to become part of the election? For example, BLM seems to be rising and growing greatly, and with a lot of money lately, could they try to get in for example?


Third-parties are continually demonised and shut-down by the political establishment. I don't think I need to explain why.


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kraftiekortie
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09 Jun 2021, 1:20 pm

BLM doesn't see itself as fully a "political party." And they don't have much of a "hierarchy," per se...they don't have much of a formal organization.

The only "third party" candidates who have done relatively well (though still not really close to winning) over the past 109 years were:

Theodore Roosevelt - 1912

George Wallace - 1968

Ross Perot - 1992



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09 Jun 2021, 3:31 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
ironpony wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Unfortunately, we've been under a two party system, for all intents and purposes, since the 19th century.


Have other parties ever attempted to become part of the election? For example, BLM seems to be rising and growing greatly, and with a lot of money lately, could they try to get in for example?


Third-parties are continually demonised and shut-down by the political establishment. I don't think I need to explain why.


I don't think most people see third parties as demon seeds. Rather, they regard a third party vote to be impotent, with the ballot just flushed down the toilet.


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09 Jun 2021, 3:33 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
I don't think most people see third parties as demon seeds. Rather, they regard a third party vote to be impotent, with the ballot just flushed down the toilet.
While the only truly wasted vote is the vote not cast, a third-party vote serves to merely siphon off votes from the other candidates, and reduce the chances of a landslide victory or a majority mandate.


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09 Jun 2021, 3:39 pm

Fnord wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I don't think most people see third parties as demon seeds. Rather, they regard a third party vote to be impotent, with the ballot just flushed down the toilet.
While the only truly wasted vote is the vote not cast, a third-party vote serves to merely siphon off votes from the other candidates, and reduce the chances of a landslide victory or a majority mandate.


Absolutely true.


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kraftiekortie
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09 Jun 2021, 3:50 pm

Votes for "third party candidates" could cause a candidate to lose an election the candidate would have won under different conditions.

If it wasn't for Theodore Roosevelt's "Bull Moose" Party in the 1912 election, the Republicans probably would have won it. Instead, Democrat Woodrow Wilson won, sort of by "default."

Basically, the Republican vote was split between two people.



VegetableMan
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09 Jun 2021, 4:09 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
ironpony wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Unfortunately, we've been under a two party system, for all intents and purposes, since the 19th century.


Have other parties ever attempted to become part of the election? For example, BLM seems to be rising and growing greatly, and with a lot of money lately, could they try to get in for example?


Third-parties are continually demonised and shut-down by the political establishment. I don't think I need to explain why.


I don't think most people see third parties as demon seeds. Rather, they regard a third party vote to be impotent, with the ballot just flushed down the toilet.


I see voting for candidates that represent the political establishment and the oligarchs as flushing your vote down the toilet. Swinging the pendulum back and forth between the two major parties is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.


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09 Jun 2021, 5:13 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
but at the end of the day will usually vote pocketbook and war and peace issues. As we know from the ND movement if you are percieved as messing around with peoples kids look out.


The pocketbook rationale should have transpired with republican primaries back in 2016 but you will remember that republican voters threw caution to the wind and voted to have a complete nutjob look after their finances instead of the alternative candidates who (while not my cup of tea) were at least career politicians who understood about the economy.

This gets back again to why republicans still like Donald Trump when he technically represents everything they are insecure about namely being anti-establishment, radical and totally lacking integrity. I think this remains the biggest mystery? don't you think?

They felt every candidate was part of the "deep state" not only working against them but looking down and mocking them so they took a gamble, figuring nothing to lose. The 2016 result was not a shock to me. I got all sorts of strange looks for saying it was POSSIBLE. What shocked me was after four years of the Trump administration pandemic and all was how close he came to pulling it off again. Now I am beginning to understand.


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09 Jun 2021, 7:11 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
They felt every candidate was part of the "deep state" not only working against them but looking down and mocking them so they took a gamble, figuring nothing to lose.


Ok so what changed the GOP electorate from the 2012 election to look to somebody like Trump?

8 years of Obama too much for republicans?

There is a plausible theory that when Michael Flynn was removed from the Afghanistan war by Obama he used his military intelligence contacts to exact revenge on Obama and Hillary to develop some type of Psy-op (psychological operation) using social media.

Flynn's son created a company in 2014 (two years prior to Trump's victory in 2016) called Q. Coincidentally the firm logo looked weirdly like the later QAnon logo representing the mysterious Q. According to a documentary on Vice all roads lead back to Michael Flynn.

Between 2014-2016 three conspiracy theories started going viral among conservative social media accounts
1. Obama was muslim
2. Obama was born in Kenya
3. Hillary Clinton ran a child-pedophile ring for the elite (Pizzagate)

Among the biggest proponents of these theories was Trump prior to 2016. No other GOP politician was lending credence to such wacked ideas except Trump and his moronic son. However these conspiracies were really popular among the fledgling MAGAs in 2016 and fed into distrust of the establishment.

When Vice did a 2 year investigation into the origins of these conspiracies they traced them back to the 8chan and 4chan web platforms but then found these were linked back to this mysterious Q who's identity was murky, When interviewing people associated with 8chan, 4Chan and QAnon the one name that kept coming up was Michael Flynn, It was curious that his son and he developed the name Q for their consultancy firm way back in 2014.

The Vice people interviewed members of the intelligence community and they all concluded the whole thing seemed like a Psy-op from deep in military intelligence. QAnon is followed by at least 10% of the American population and has 30 million followers (all of whom are Trump supporters).

The connection is very curious,



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09 Jun 2021, 7:37 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
They felt every candidate was part of the "deep state" not only working against them but looking down and mocking them so they took a gamble, figuring nothing to lose.


Ok so what changed the GOP electorate from the 2012 election to look to somebody like Trump?

8 years of Obama too much for republicans?

There is a plausible theory that when Michael Flynn was removed from the Afghanistan war by Obama he used his military intelligence contacts to exact revenge on Obama and Hillary to develop some type of Psy-op (psychological operation) using social media.

Flynn's son created a company in 2014 (two years prior to Trump's victory in 2016) called Q. Coincidentally the firm logo looked weirdly like the later QAnon logo representing the mysterious Q. According to a documentary on Vice all roads lead back to Michael Flynn.

Between 2014-2016 three conspiracy theories started going viral among conservative social media accounts
1. Obama was muslim
2. Obama was born in Kenya
3. Hillary Clinton ran a child-pedophile ring for the elite (Pizzagate)

Among the biggest proponents of these theories was Trump prior to 2016. No other GOP politician was lending credence to such wacked ideas except Trump and his moronic son. However these conspiracies were really popular among the fledgling MAGAs in 2016 and fed into distrust of the establishment.

When Vice did a 2 year investigation into the origins of these conspiracies they traced them back to the 8chan and 4chan web platforms but then found these were linked back to this mysterious Q who's identity was murky, When interviewing people associated with 8chan, 4Chan and QAnon the one name that kept coming up was Michael Flynn, It was curious that his son and he developed the name Q for their consultancy firm way back in 2014.

The Vice people interviewed members of the intelligence community and they all concluded the whole thing seemed like a Psy-op from deep in military intelligence. QAnon is followed by at least 10% of the American population and has 30 million followers (all of whom are Trump supporters).

The connection is very curious,

Maybe nothing. We do not know what would have happened if Trump ran in 2012.


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09 Jun 2021, 7:56 pm

VegetableMan wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
ironpony wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Unfortunately, we've been under a two party system, for all intents and purposes, since the 19th century.


Have other parties ever attempted to become part of the election? For example, BLM seems to be rising and growing greatly, and with a lot of money lately, could they try to get in for example?


Third-parties are continually demonised and shut-down by the political establishment. I don't think I need to explain why.


I don't think most people see third parties as demon seeds. Rather, they regard a third party vote to be impotent, with the ballot just flushed down the toilet.


I see voting for candidates that represent the political establishment and the oligarchs as flushing your vote down the toilet. Swinging the pendulum back and forth between the two major parties is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.


As opposed to voting for a third candidate that will never see the inside of the White House, save for during a public tour?
And who says everything done by the political establishment has been bad? The fight for voting rights says otherwise. And while not a third party candidate, Trump, who claimed to be outside the political machine, in the end coopted it, making top members of his party his b*tches. And not for the better, either.


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