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Mona Pereth
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22 Apr 2021, 12:30 pm

To Fnord:

As I said earlier, it seems to me that your approach to job interviews is extremely unfriendly to autistic people. To elaborate:

Fnord wrote:
Does the person show enthusiasm and engagement when discussing his or her interests,

A less-than-enthusiastic response might mean merely that the person is very nervous about the job interview, as most people are to some extent, and as most autistic people would be to a far greater degree -- ESPECIALLY about a job interview that features intrusive personal questions.

Fnord wrote:
or does the person just shrug off the question and say, "Nothing much"? A person with no outside interests often cannot relate to others who do.

And why is it necessary that the person be able to relate to other people's outside interests? After all, as you said:

Fnord wrote:
We do not "party" on the job.

That being the case, why not focus instead on the specific kinds of communication abilities that are actually relevant to the job?

Fnord wrote:
As for misery ... does the person state a simple fact ("I was in labor for 23 hours.") or do they dwell on how nobody likes them, everybody hates them, and how they wish they could show others how wrong they are?

If you're trying to get a feel for the person's general attitude toward life, surely there are less intrusive ways to do this than by asking, "What was the most miserable thing you ever experienced?"

It seems to me that this question would be extremely offputting even to (and perhaps especially to) some of your best potential employees (autistic or otherwise). If a candidate is well-qualified enough to get multiple job offers and is a generally self-respecting person, I would expect them to (other factors being equal) turn down offers from companies where such shockingly nosy, creepy, demeaning, jarringly intimate personal questions are an accepted part of company culture -- even if the question is legal according to your company lawyer.

See also my reply here.


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threetoed snail
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22 Apr 2021, 1:32 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
It seems to me that this question would be extremely offputting even to (and perhaps especially to) some of your best potential employees (autistic or otherwise). If a candidate is well-qualified enough to get multiple job offers and is a generally self-respecting person, I would expect them to (other factors being equal) turn down offers from companies where such shockingly nosy, creepy, demeaning, jarringly intimate personal questions are an accepted part of company culture -- even if the question is legal according to your company lawyer.

I don't know much about jobs markets and such, but, as a human being (and as a CS near-graduate), I fully agree. That question alone would immediately make me very tempted to just answer the last listed question with "I don't anymore. Sorry I wasted your time and you wasted mine." I don't want to be in a place where it's okay to be prodded like a lab rat to see if I squeak just right or not.

Granted, that's part of why I'm unemployable, but I think the basic difference in this case is that other people are more tolerant of such hazing rituals.


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Mona Pereth
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22 Apr 2021, 1:45 pm

threetoed snail wrote:
I don't know much about jobs markets and such, but, as a human being (and as a CS near-graduate), I fully agree. That question alone would immediately make me very tempted to just answer the last listed question with "I don't anymore. Sorry I wasted your time and you wasted mine." I don't want to be in a place where it's okay to be prodded like a lab rat to see if I squeak just right or not.

Very eloquently put.

threetoed snail wrote:
Granted, that's part of why I'm unemployable, but I think the basic difference in this case is that other people are more tolerant of such hazing rituals.

This is one of the reasons why we desperately need more autistic-friendly workplaces. For some of what exists so far in this regard (for people with technical degrees such as CS), see the lists of Resources for autistic tech job seekers on my website.

By the way, even if you don't live in New York, you're welcome to join the online text-based chat meeting of Autistic techies of the NYC area next week Monday. Please RSVP on the Meetup site if you choose to join us.


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Fnord
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22 Apr 2021, 3:20 pm

threetoed snail wrote:
I don't know much about jobs markets and such, but, as a human being (and as a CS near-graduate), I fully agree. That question alone would immediately make me very tempted to just answer the last listed question with "I don't anymore. Sorry I wasted your time and you wasted mine." I don't want to be in a place where it's okay to be prodded like a lab rat to see if I squeak just right or not.
At which point, I would smile, nod my head toward the door, and say, "Thank you for coming.  We will keep your application on file for 12 months in case a position comes up more suitable to you.  Again, thank you and have a nice day!"
threetoed snail wrote:
Granted, that's part of why I'm unemployable, but I think the basic difference in this case is that other people are more tolerant of such hazing rituals.
That you would consider a legal and ethical question part of an alleged "hazing ritual", it is no wonder that you are unemployable.

Have a nice day!


:D


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Fnord
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22 Apr 2021, 3:37 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
To Fnord: [...]
Look, Mona, I know you want workplaces to be more autistic-friendly, but your convoluted 'reasoning' makes no sense against the fact that employers are looking for employees who: (1) are both able and willing to do their jobs; and (2) get along with co-workers.

Even though my employer is tolerant of my 'weirdness' -- even when I push the limits of that tolerance -- I am still obligated to keep in focus the two equally-important criteria I mentioned.  Autism in and of itself is not a problem.  Problems arise when the cost of supporting employees exceeds their ability to cooperatively perform.  This is demonstrated when yet another person must be hired just to take up the slack that the original employee failed to pull.

Candidates may be the next Einsteins, but if they have Trump-like personalities (i.e., Bigoted, Delusional, Narcissistic, et cetera), then they simply should not be hired.

At the other extreme, being the "life of the party" may be fine for socializing; but for a company that has a reputation for producing results, a "party animal" is not welcome either.

Somewhere in between is the Golden Mean -- a person who can and will do the work and who can and will get along with his or her coworkers.  They do not have to be geniuses; nor do they have to fawn over their co-workers to earn their pay.

Trying to convince me otherwise will get you nowhere, since I know what works because I put it into practice.

Have a nice day!


:D


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threetoed snail
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22 Apr 2021, 4:06 pm

Fnord wrote:
At which point, I would smile, nod my head toward the door, and say, "Thank you for coming.  We will keep your application on file for 12 months in case a position comes up more suitable to you.  Again, thank you and have a nice day!"

That's where I wouldn't actually have said what I would have been tempted to say. I'm not stupid. But you see how that can set things up for an unnecessarily uncomfortable start, don't you? "Oh yes, I'm so excited to start my job tomorrow, sir. [fake smile] [ugh f**k me!]"

Quote:
That you would consider a legal and ethical question part of an alleged "hazing ritual", it is no wonder that you are unemployable.

The only humanly appropriate answer to that actual question in my opinion would be "it's none of your business", and that is obvious to any human being, and, to any human being being asked that question, it's also obvious that it's obvious to the person asking it. I can't see it as anything but a test of someone's reaction to a soft instance of humiliation. "How well will you swallow your pride?" If the idea is to test someone's level of submission to authority, I guess that's a good test. Otherwise, I can't see how that could ever be a good filter for anything actually relevant, especially in a technical field. It just favors good actors and brown-nosers.


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threetoed snail
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22 Apr 2021, 4:23 pm

^^ You're missing the point, Fnord.

This is the point:

Mona Pereth wrote:
If you're trying to get a feel for the person's general attitude toward life, surely there are less intrusive ways to do this than by asking, "What was the most miserable thing you ever experienced?"


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22 Apr 2021, 4:28 pm

threetoed snail wrote:
Fnord wrote:
At which point, I would smile, nod my head toward the door, and say, "Thank you for coming.  We will keep your application on file for 12 months in case a position comes up more suitable to you.  Again, thank you and have a nice day!"
That's where I wouldn't actually have said what I would have been tempted to say. I'm not stupid. But you see how that can set things up for an unnecessarily uncomfortable start, don't you?
I can see how a candidate's response to any question can enhance or diminish their hiring potential.  Do not blame the interviewers for asking legal, yet uncomfortable questions.  The replies to those questions are the sole responsibility of the candidates.

threetoed snail wrote:
Quote:
That you would consider a legal and ethical question part of an alleged "hazing ritual", it is no wonder that you are unemployable.
The only humanly appropriate answer to that actual question in my opinion would be "it's none of your business", and that is obvious to any human being, and, to any human being being asked that question, it's also obvious that it's obvious to the person asking it. I can't see it as anything but a test of someone's reaction to a soft instance of humiliation. "How well will you swallow your pride?" If the idea is to test someone's submission to authority, I guess that's a good test. Otherwise, I can't see how that could ever be a good filter for anything actually relevant, especially in a technical field.
A bit of advice: "That is rather personal, and I would prefer to not discuss it." sounds a lot less arrogant than "None of your business".

And, of course sensitive question are attempts to see how well candidates handle their feelings -- which, again, are the sole responsibility of the candidates themselves.  Handling such questions with aplomb will go a long way toward making the candidate look more attractive to the interviewers.  As an example, I remember being asked to describe how I handled my most miserable moment.  Not wanting to describe THE most miserable moment (it was rather personal, so I preferred to not discuss it), I related another miserable moment with which most adults can identify.  The story went something like this...

< nervous laughter > "Well, it would have to be when I was in the Navy and had three wisdom teeth extracted all at once.  I do not remember the procedure itself, but only staggering back to the barracks in a daze, and seeing passers-by and people on watch stare at my face in horror.  When the anesthetic finally wore off, I had to deal with the pain, the blood, the nausea, and the lack of food while showing up for muster every four hours.  But I had duties to perform, so after the 24-hour sick-leave chit expired, I reported for duty and just did my work.  Pretty soon, I got so caught up in my work that I forgot about my misery.  Even the section chief commented well on my determination and work-ethic." <more nervous laughter >

I think that really impressed the man (a former Marine) who became my boss -- I worked through misery to overcome it.


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Last edited by Fnord on 22 Apr 2021, 4:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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22 Apr 2021, 4:38 pm

threetoed snail wrote:
^^ You're missing the point...
No, YOU are missing the point.

If all you want are softball questions like, "If you were a tree, what kind would you be?" or "What is your favorite color?", then you are probably looking at a commission-only job at the sales counter of a marijuana dispensary.

But if you are looking at a job with great responsibility, high pay, and potential for growth, then expect hardball questions that reveal how you handle stress and difficult situations, because such employers are not looking for generic employees just to fill a position; they are looking for people who can keep their heads during difficult situations and not have meltdowns whenever they are told what to do by someone they do not like.

Is it safe to assume that you are not a military veteran?


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threetoed snail
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22 Apr 2021, 5:08 pm

Fnord wrote:
I can see how a candidate's response to any question can enhance or diminish their hiring potential.  Do not blame the interviewers for asking legal, yet uncomfortable questions.  The replies to those questions are the sole responsibility of the candidates.

I understand that. But is it really necessary to make the work environment itself immediately uncomfortable? (Not stressful, which may be intrinsic to it, but uncomfortable). It's not just an uncomfortable question, it's, at face value, an inappropriate one for a work environment. And if someone is asking me a question in a job interview, I assume a refusal to answer it, however polite it may be, is not the desired response.

Quote:
And, of course sensitive question are attempts to see how well candidates handle their feelings -- which, again, are the sole responsibility of the candidates themselves.  Handling such questions with aplomb will go a long way toward making the candidate look more attractive to the interviewers.  As an example, I remember being asked to describe how I handled my most miserable moment.  Not wanting to describe THE most miserable moment (it was rather personal, so I preferred to not discuss it), I related another miserable moment with which most adults can identify.  The story went something like this...

< nervous laughter > "Well, it would have to be when I was in the Navy and had three wisdom teeth extracted all at once.  I do not remember the procedure itself, but only staggering back to the barracks in a daze, and seeing passers-by and people on watch stare at my face in horror.  When the anesthetic finally wore off, I had to deal with the pain, the blood, the nausea, and the lack of food while showing up for muster every four hours.  But I had duties to perform, so after the 24-hour sick-leave chit expired, I reported for duty and just did my work.  Pretty soon, I got so caught up in my work that I forgot about my misery.  Even the section chief commented well on my determination and work-ethic." <more nervous laughter >

I suppose I would probably mention the time when I was on my own abroad not really knowing where I would stay at first, but managed to leave three months later with a new passport. It was very stressful, it was the result of a lot of determination, it's something I'm proud of, and it's something other people also seemed to be impressed about whenever I told them what I was doing / had managed to do.

I would definitely still be very uncomfortable not just about the question but about the precedent that it sets for the environment that it's meant to be part of. It may be common practice, it may serve a purpose, and, like I said, if the purpose is to assess someone's level of submission to authority, I think it might do the job very well and actually be compatible with what the trait being assessed (I wouldn't even consider applying to a job where that trait is a high-priority requirement). But still, the fact is that, at face value, it is an inappropriate question. If an interview is meant to filter for situations relevant to the work environment, then this seems to suggest that inappropriate requests that need to be reinterpreted on-the-fly are part of that work environment.

Again, maybe this is what normal looks like. I wouldn't know. But that doesn't mean there isn't a better way. There has to be.


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22 Apr 2021, 5:30 pm

Quote:
But if you are looking at a job with great responsibility, high pay, and potential for growth, then expect hardball questions that reveal how you handle stress and difficult situations, because such employers are not looking for generic employees just to fill a position; they are looking for people who can keep their heads during difficult situations and not have meltdowns whenever they are told what to do by someone they do not like.

I don't know, I think we're just talking past each other. I am probably not visualizing anything close to what you are, and vice-versa. The type of environment that I'm picturing (which is what would have been relevant to me had I been able to graduate) would be one where everyone is expected to constantly solve problems first and foremost, but where "inappropriate and unclear requests that need to be reinterpreted on the fly" would be a very common and real threat to avoid, and that would be one of my priorities (and probably my potential colleagues' too) when assessing whether a workplace is a good place to work or not. A question like that in an interview would seem like a major red flag.

What prompted my previous replies though was the way you described the purpose of that question. It just didn't seem to make sense. Maybe in your work environment it makes sense, but I don't think it generalizes well at all.

Quote:
Is it safe to assume that you are not a military veteran?[/color]

Very safe.


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Mona Pereth
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22 Apr 2021, 5:50 pm

Fnord wrote:
threetoed snail wrote:
^^ You're missing the point...
No, YOU are missing the point.

If all you want are softball questions like, "If you were a tree, what kind would you be?" or "What is your favorite color?", then you are probably looking at a commission-only job at the sales counter of a marijuana dispensary.

But if you are looking at a job with great responsibility, high pay, and potential for growth, then expect hardball questions that reveal how you handle stress and difficult situations, because such employers are not looking for generic employees just to fill a position; they are looking for people who can keep their heads during difficult situations and not have meltdowns whenever they are told what to do by someone they do not like.

Is it safe to assume that you are not a military veteran?

Okay, I guess I can maybe see asking questions like the "most miserable experience" one when interviewing someone for a management position. But for an entry-level or near-entry-level engineer? Seems to me that the relevant issues, besides their technical knowledge, are:

1) Ability to explain technical matters.
2) Ability to grasp new technical concepts quickly.
3) Ability to translate user-level requirements into technical requirements and then to a design.
4) Ability to troubleshoot.
5) Ability to resolve disagreements with co-workers in a civil manner.

I don't see how intrusive personal questions are relevant to any of this, beyond perhaps, something like, "Give an example of a problem you had with another person and how you resolved it," for #5 above.

BTW, I don't see the relevance of questions like "If you were a tree, what kind would you be?" (a question likely to be flustering to many autistic job applicants, BTW) or "What is your favorite color?" to even "a commission-only job at the sales counter of a marijuana dispensary." I can see how they might be relevant to a an advertising/marketing position.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 22 Apr 2021, 6:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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22 Apr 2021, 6:49 pm

Fnord wrote:
That you would consider a legal and ethical question part of an alleged "hazing ritual",

Legal, apparently. "Ethical"? Maybe, depending on the type of position, I guess, but certainly not for most positions. I do agree with threetoed snail's perception of it as a hazing ritual -- at least in any reasonable de facto sense of the term "hazing ritual," even if it doesn't technically legally qualify as one.

When I applied for EE jobs back in the 1980's (and managed to get a few, the last of which lasted for 7+ years), I was never asked the kinds of personal questions you've suggested in this thread. Ditto for subsequent jobs I've held.

I've had a vague impression that the corporate employment process has gotten more and more autistic-unfriendly over the years, but I didn't fully realize just how utterly awful it has become until I read your posts in this thread. I would be quite creeped out even by what you consider to be "softball" questions, were I to be asked them in the context of a job interview.

We absolutely need to develop better alternatives.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 22 Apr 2021, 7:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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22 Apr 2021, 7:06 pm

Fnord wrote:
< nervous laughter > "Well, it would have to be when I was in the Navy and had three wisdom teeth extracted all at once.  I do not remember the procedure itself, but only staggering back to the barracks in a daze, and seeing passers-by and people on watch stare at my face in horror.  When the anesthetic finally wore off, I had to deal with the pain, the blood, the nausea, and the lack of food while showing up for muster every four hours.  But I had duties to perform, so after the 24-hour sick-leave chit expired, I reported for duty and just did my work.  Pretty soon, I got so caught up in my work that I forgot about my misery.  Even the section chief commented well on my determination and work-ethic." <more nervous laughter >

I think that really impressed the man (a former Marine) who became my boss -- I worked through misery to overcome it.[/color]


Honestly that's a nice story but I have to be honest, if I were the interviewer I'd see it as virtue signalling and roll my eyes, much like Miss Universe saying she'd like to end poverty and help blind men to see. The question didn't ask you to relate your former misery with what a conscientious little employee you'd be, or to describe how your misery related to your work ethic. I know it's a smooth move to tie the ends of any story in with your suitability for the job, or to boost your appeal as an employee, but it just sounds glib to me. I don't think the question is remotely suitable in the first place, but answering with added fluff seems like overkill. I'm sorry I'm not trying to insult your story or your experience as a whole and I'm sure it's true of you, but ... I wouldn't be impressed. I'd suggest leaving it with the details of your injury, and letting them ask more questions as needed.



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22 Apr 2021, 7:20 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Fnord wrote:
< nervous laughter > "Well, it would have to be when I was in the Navy and had three wisdom teeth extracted all at once.  I do not remember the procedure itself, but only staggering back to the barracks in a daze, and seeing passers-by and people on watch stare at my face in horror.  When the anesthetic finally wore off, I had to deal with the pain, the blood, the nausea, and the lack of food while showing up for muster every four hours.  But I had duties to perform, so after the 24-hour sick-leave chit expired, I reported for duty and just did my work.  Pretty soon, I got so caught up in my work that I forgot about my misery.  Even the section chief commented well on my determination and work-ethic." <more nervous laughter >
Honestly that's a nice story but I have to be honest, if I were the interviewer I'd see it as virtue signalling and roll my eyes, much like Miss Universe saying she'd like to end poverty and help blind men to see. The question didn't ask you to relate your former misery with what a conscientious little employee you'd be, or to describe how your misery related to your work ethic. I know it's a smooth move to tie the ends of any story in with your suitability for the job, or to boost your appeal as an employee, but it just sounds glib to me. I don't think the question is remotely suitable in the first place, but answering with added fluff seems like overkill. I'm sorry I'm not trying to insult your story or your experience as a whole and I'm sure it's true of you, but ... I wouldn't be impressed. I'd suggest leaving it with the details of your injury, and letting them ask more questions as needed.
You might be surprised at how often "virtue signalling" occurs during the "informal" portion of the interview process; but what else could I have done?  Should have instead gone into the despair and misery of my homeless experience?  Should I have talked about how my ex-wife and her (then-) boyfriend screwed me over and ruined my life?  Should I have related a long-winded and bitter narrative of being raised by an abusive and bigoted alcoholic?  How about all the bullying and beatings I received from him and my fellow students?

•••

("Oh, my GAWD!  This guy is a total LOSER!  He would be nothing but TROUBLE from the first day on the job!  Let's pass on him and see what the next candidate has to say!")

•••

So I told a true story that painted me in favorable tones.  That is what the "informal" portion is all about.  Besides, I got the job!


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22 Apr 2021, 7:27 pm

Fnord wrote:

So I told a true story that painted me in favorable tones.  That is what the "informal" portion is all about![/color]


I get it, Fnord. You did what you're supposed to do. I guess it's just a matter of "ask a silly question, you get a silly answer".

Of course I'm not saying your story is silly, but the "then I saved the day" does sound over-the-top.

My point is it's a bad question and lots of people will embellish.

If someone asked me that, I'd say I have PTSD and leave it at that. If they asked too many questions I'd say I wasn't interested in the job and leave.