As Minnesotan I can affirm that Defund the police is stupid

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kraftiekortie
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27 Apr 2021, 12:57 pm

They actually only reduced the police budget by 4.5%. I'm thinking there won't be any layoffs, and that the reduced budget will be made up through people retiring from the force.



funeralxempire
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27 Apr 2021, 1:14 pm

ironpony wrote:
But doesn't defunding mean less police on the streets and police will act more violently on the streets if there is less back to assist them though. Like take this for example.


Why would people become more violent just because of fewer police? Most people aren't just sitting around waiting for an opportunity to commit crimes, those who are law-abiding will likely continue to be law-abiding, those who engage in criminal activity will still have the same motives regardless of how many cops are employed.

Number of cops won't impact crimes committed impulsively because those generally are done without considering consequences.

Number of cops won't impact premeditated crimes because most of those people believe they'll outsmart law enforcement and get away. More cops might alter their plans but they probably won't make those plans suddenly unworkable, they'll just be another factor to consider.


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ironpony
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28 Apr 2021, 1:16 am

Oh well I thought if there were less police it would encourage criminals to commit more crimes, because they feel they have a better chance of getting away with, with less police, which would include violent crimes as well. That's just what I thought.



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28 Apr 2021, 5:05 am

Some crimes are impulsive not only cockyness but people need the money for food, drugs NOW.

There is a reason robbers case homes, look for homes with, nobody there, cars that are unlocked etc. There is a reason crimes are spiking in areas that had riots, in areas where police have become if not defended demoralized or have been called out. The pandemic is a factor but was not a factor in the crime spikes that occurred areas that experienced unrest in the 60s.


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ironpony
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28 Apr 2021, 8:50 am

Oh well I thought that criminals would be less impulsive to commit crimes with more police around. For example, last year in Seattle, a group of crooks decided to take over an empty police station and use it as part of their base of operations so to speak.

But if that police station had been filled with police, they wouldn't have attempted that, or at least I wouldn't think so. But that's just one example I could think of.



funeralxempire
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28 Apr 2021, 9:49 am

ironpony wrote:
Oh well I thought that criminals would be less impulsive to commit crimes with more police around. For example, last year in Seattle, a group of crooks decided to take over an empty police station and use it as part of their base of operations so to speak.

But if that police station had been filled with police, they wouldn't have attempted that, or at least I wouldn't think so. But that's just one example I could think of.


That's also a single incident and isn't reflective of broader trends.

The people protesting the police saw an opportunity and took it, but like I said they would have continued to protest in one form or another and some of that protest would have likely been considered illegal whether it was occupying an empty police station or engaging in some other form of civil disobedience.

Ultimately that act is an act of civil disobedience and is motivated by political considerations so it's not really reflective of general trends related to criminal activity in the area.

As much as I don't agree with the actions I wouldn't try to frame the insurrection on January 6th or civil disobedience from anti-maskers as though they're evidence of a broader increase. Even when actions those people participate in are criminal they're still easy enough to segregate out from most other crime.

Hypothetically: If a town bans walking dogs after 7pm and everyone who owns a dog protests by walking their dog after 7pm the town hasn't been taken over by criminals, the citizens are breaking the law to protest it and if they care enough about the issue cracking down on them might just lead to some other form of protest. If the response is heavy-handed it might lead to a bunch of criminal charges, some of which might even be legitimately in response to criminal actions, but without that political motive the increase in crime wouldn't have happened.


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29 Apr 2021, 8:31 pm

Oh okay, what does the Januarry 6th incident have to do with it though?



kraftiekortie
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29 Apr 2021, 8:34 pm

It was an attempted insurrection. It sought to deny the victory to Joe Biden, even though he won fair and square.

You only do that in "Banana republics."

If you tolerate this in the US, the US will go down the tubes.



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29 Apr 2021, 8:40 pm

Yes I know but what does an attempted insurrection have to do with defunding the police or increase in crime?



kraftiekortie
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29 Apr 2021, 8:51 pm

It’s an example of what can happen if “defunding the police” is carried to an extreme.



ironpony
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29 Apr 2021, 8:54 pm

Oh you mean if there is more defunding it could lead to attempted insurrections?



funeralxempire
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29 Apr 2021, 8:55 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, what does the Januarry 6th incident have to do with it though?



It was an event that involved a huge number of crimes being committed, just like any other riot.

What does the occupation of the police station have to do with whether or not Seattle should reduce spending on police? It's not as though they didn't have the manpower to staff that building. Bringing up that event is just as much not on topic as Jan 6th, that's why I referred to Jan 6th. A riot doesn't disprove the premise behind defund the police arguments, it's barely even relevant.


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29 Apr 2021, 9:03 pm

Oh okay, I just thought if there was less police around because of defunding, criminals might see that as an opportunity to commit more crimes as a result.



funeralxempire
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29 Apr 2021, 9:14 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, I just thought if there was less police around because of defunding, criminals might see that as an opportunity to commit more crimes as a result.


What's their incentive? Won't most people just continue on with their lives without considering how many police there are? Like I can understand how crime might go up if unemployment goes up, or if suddenly addiction becomes a huge problem, but both of those would have other causes, not just from a shift in how municipalities spend their money.

Is there anything to support the idea or is it just a hypothetical without anything to suggest it will happen, but you know, maybe it could?


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29 Apr 2021, 9:20 pm

It's just the way I think I guess. I just think that the less law there is, there more crime there will be but that is just my way of thinking I guess.



funeralxempire
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29 Apr 2021, 9:27 pm

ironpony wrote:
It's just the way I think I guess. I just think that the less law there is, there more crime there will be but that is just my way of thinking I guess.


I guess what I'm asking is does what you believe stand-up when you examine it like this?

You don't owe me the answer, but definitely you owe yourself the answer.

This is kind of the mirror image of what I was complementing you on before, in order to answer your questions I gotta examine what I believe closely enough that I'm forced to consider if it's right or not, because if it doesn't seem consistent and coherent I can't claim what I'm saying makes sense.


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