As Minnesotan I can affirm that Defund the police is stupid

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salad
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25 Apr 2021, 11:05 pm

Im specifically from Minneapolis so this hits closer to home. Minneapolis decided to last year after the George Floyd debacle to implement not just defunding the police, but the city council sought to pass a charter disbanding the police. the results have been catastrophic. every week, every day there has been a shooting, a stabbing, a rape, a sexual assault, a car jacking, its literally unprecedented. The gangs have basically run Minneapolis now and there are entire parts of Minneapolis where the police actually won't enter out of fear.

As great as defunding the police sounds on paper, it is a terrible idea in practice. No amount of theoretical expositions will ever change my mind because theory and philosophy can never ever hold a candle to real life empirical results. Never. Practice>>>>>>>>>>theory any day.

Liberals from the Atlantic and NY Times are idiotically peddling this garbage notion that the world can seriously universally abolish the police, something that I thought was a meme until I actually read such garbage online:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opin ... olice.html

The Atlantic some time ago also ran an article arguing the same nonsense. Many liberal think tanks, professors and academics have been promoting this garbage using nice sounding jargon, pseudo intellectual arguments, and other rubbish and its not going to work because when actual empirical results are showing that areas that cut back their police force are experiencing surges of crimes and gang activity, all the theory in the world isn't going to work.

Liberals and conservatives, at least the dumb ones, have 1 thing in common: they constantly write turgid explanations of theory about how this idiotic idea works even when it never ever works in practice. Whether its the less intelligent conservatives saying things like we don't need the Civil Rights Act, or when they promise trickle down economics, its garbage because it doesn't work in practice. Likewise liberals pushing the defund or even abolish the police, or some of Bernie Sanders' crazier socialist ideas, its all coming down to theory but reality is so much more complex.

As a Minneapolis native the efforts by our city council to remove the police was the stupidest thing that's ever happened to our city, and the upsurge in crime is all the evidence I need


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Last edited by salad on 25 Apr 2021, 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

funeralxempire
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25 Apr 2021, 11:13 pm

You're aware that defund the police isn't generally meant as abolish all policing, right?


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salad
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25 Apr 2021, 11:36 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
You're aware that defund the police isn't generally meant as abolish all policing, right?


The issue is that in order to reform the police you need money, money to train police officers, hire police officers of better quality, and to retain skilled police officers rather than hiring only the dumbest and cheapest ones. By defunding the police you practically impede the type of police reform that would prevent situations like the George Floyd murder.


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funeralxempire
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26 Apr 2021, 12:29 am

salad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
You're aware that defund the police isn't generally meant as abolish all policing, right?


The issue is that in order to reform the police you need money, money to train police officers, hire police officers of better quality, and to retain skilled police officers rather than hiring only the dumbest and cheapest ones. By defunding the police you practically impede the type of police reform that would prevent situations like the George Floyd murder.


No, shifting funds away from policing into other social services that can better serve services that police are often expected to provide and allowing police to no longer handle those functions contributes to reform.

The answer isn't always give cops more money.


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magz
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26 Apr 2021, 12:35 am

funeralxempire wrote:
The answer isn't always give cops more money.

The question is often how this money will be used and do you control it.

Think of it within a capitalist framework: the city hires the police to buy safety. Does the police provide what the city needs?


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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26 Apr 2021, 6:27 am

I found some things in this article to be of interest, https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 599232001/

Quote:
While some believe defunding the police is a call to get rid of law enforcement completely, many activists behind the slogan intended to make a more nuanced argument for police budgets to be steered toward community social programs so officers were less often required to take on roles better suited to social workers.


Quote:
Respondent Valda Pugh, 67, a retiree from Louisville, Kentucky, believes that when the call to defund the police began, people didn't fully understand the concept. "When it first surfaced, I think people had the wrong definition of what that meant. We still obviously need a police force. We need them in full force."

Steve Laskowitz, 73, of Boca Raton, Florida, agreed.

"I think it's misguided," said Laskowitz, who was among those surveyed. "I don't think anybody wants to defund the police. I think we might want to restructure how the police budget is spent, better training, better analysis of the people who become police and more efforts towards community involvement."


Quote:
And the responses were even more negative when Americans were asked if they thought the police should be abolished or eliminated, with 67% overall saying they were opposed, including a majority of Black Americans and Democrats.


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kraftiekortie
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26 Apr 2021, 6:37 am

We still need police. And we need police to police the police.

Social workers would be better in some situations where the police are called.



Mr Reynholm
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26 Apr 2021, 7:31 am

What is the Department of Justice created one police force for the entire nation to replace all of the local ones? Accountability, Transparency, ect, ect?



kraftiekortie
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26 Apr 2021, 7:58 am

We certainly don't need a "national police." That would be the first step towards authoritarianism.



kitesandtrainsandcats
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26 Apr 2021, 8:15 am

Mr Reynholm wrote:
What is the Department of Justice created one police force for the entire nation to replace all of the local ones? Accountability, Transparency, ect, ect?

Then the DoJ would be breaking the law.
https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/ ... transcript
Quote:
Article the twelfth... The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


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Mr Reynholm
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26 Apr 2021, 8:48 am

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
What is the Department of Justice created one police force for the entire nation to replace all of the local ones? Accountability, Transparency, ect, ect?

Then the DoJ would be breaking the law.
https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/ ... transcript
Quote:
Article the twelfth... The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

I myself am not for Nationalized police because of the clause you cited in the Constitution.
But when has the Constitution mattered to the DC political establishment?
I'm just more interested in seeing what the popular opinion would be.



kraftiekortie
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26 Apr 2021, 10:37 am

The Minneapolis City Council voted to trim 4.5% from the budget which is set aside for police; there will be no layoffs of police officers.

A billion dollars that was earmarked for police in NYC was sent to other agencies. There have been no layoffs of police officers in NYC.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 26 Apr 2021, 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

funeralxempire
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26 Apr 2021, 10:43 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
We certainly don't need a "national police." That would be the first step towards authoritarianism.


Are the Mounties a sign Canada's on the verge of becoming authoritarian?


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kraftiekortie
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26 Apr 2021, 10:48 am

No....but, within an American context, having a "national police" would set a bad precedent.



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26 Apr 2021, 10:55 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
No....but, within an American context, having a "national police" would set a bad precedent.


America already has a national police force, they just don't handle everything because they're not allowed.

kitesandtrainsandcats makes a case for why it's not possible to expand the role of the FBI but that doesn't mean that nation-wide standards can't be created and enforced by the DoJ. They'd be less likely to be corrupted by personal relationships with members of local policing so would likely be more trustworthy than any sort of internal affairs type of unit that's still part of the local police.


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kraftiekortie
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26 Apr 2021, 12:23 pm

Of course, we have the FBI.

State and local police agencies would, inevitably, resent standards being imposed upon them by this federal entity.