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kraftiekortie
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18 May 2021, 1:25 pm

Singapore is an eminently CAPITALIST country. There really isn't much "socialism" in it.



ironpony
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18 May 2021, 8:54 pm

Oh okay, but it was said before that Singapore may be authoritarian, based on some things that go on there, so are they both capiltalist and authoritian therefore?



funeralxempire
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18 May 2021, 9:39 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, but it was said before that Singapore may be authoritarian, based on some things that go on there, so are they both capiltalist and authoritian therefore?


Yes.


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ironpony
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18 May 2021, 9:41 pm

Oh okay. Well when it comes to the OP saying they hate conservatism, I thought conservatism, didn't necessarily have anything to do with capitalism and authoritarianism though, and it is a diferent set of social beliefs, but is there a connection?

Or would the OP be more accurate to say, that he/she hates authoritariansim, rather than conservatism?



funeralxempire
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18 May 2021, 9:52 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. Well when it comes to the OP saying they hate conservatism, I thought conservatism, didn't necessarily have anything to do with capitalism and authoritarianism though, and it is a diferent set of social beliefs, but is there a connection?

Or would the OP be more accurate to say, that he/she hates authoritariansim, rather than conservatism?


I don't think I can speak for OP, but those fears are all rooted in authoritarian interpretations of conservative values.

It isn't a generalized fear of authoritarianism, it's specifically fears of the authoritarian right based on actual policies pursued by the authoritarian right in different parts of the world.

Whether or not the conservatives in his area would support those policies is a separate matter.


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the problem with capitalism is that eventually you run out of other people's resources and cheap labour to exploit
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ironpony
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18 May 2021, 10:18 pm

Oh okay, I just never related the two. It actually seems that liberalism is more connected to authoritaranism in the West since liberals are more about restrictions and censorship, compared to conservatives it seems. So it seems that maybe therefore authoritarianism can swing both ways then?



funeralxempire
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18 May 2021, 11:03 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, I just never related the two. It actually seems that liberalism is more connected to authoritaranism in the West since liberals are more about restrictions and censorship, compared to conservatives it seems. So it seems that maybe therefore authoritarianism can swing both ways then?


Definitely. There's been authoritarian left-wing regimes before, although generally speaking western liberals (by virtue of embracing pluralism) are pretty tame when compared to most right-wing dictatorships or left-wing dictatorships or absolutist monarchies.

Pluralism tends to be a check on authoritarianism because when power is split up into independent chunks they're more likely to serve as checks and balances on each other. Liberal democracy needs pluralism to break down before it's likely to become genuinely authoritarian.


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kraftiekortie
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18 May 2021, 11:13 pm

Are you friggin kidding me?

Conservatives are the champions of censorship; it’s only in very recent times that liberals jumped on the censorship bandwagon.



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18 May 2021, 11:26 pm

That's true, I guess I was going by more recent times, than the past.



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19 May 2021, 11:31 am

thinkinginpictures wrote:
I -HATE- political conservatism, because:

Conservatives believe in enforcing a set of values which I cannot and do not want to live with.
They want a society I do not want to live in.

Such conservative values are:

* Conscription/work duty (you get jailed for not working at specific places at specific hours and you as a citizen will have no say in it what-so-ever).

* People with mental disabilities should not get care, but punishment.

* Wants to have prejudice and bias control the judicial system. They do not like a fair trial.

* Believe in an inherited hierarchy, with little to no place for those at the bottom to "climb the ladder", so to speak.

* Wants a certain set of beliefs about the universe and human society made into enforced compulsory set of rituals (compulsory religion, church attendance etc.).

* When having their beliefs and opinions questioned, they get angry and aggressive. They refuse any discussion on their set of beliefs and opinions, unless its a one-way-talk in their favour.

You have no idea what conservatism is. Most of those statements apply to the left than the right.



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19 May 2021, 2:47 pm

Bataar wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
I -HATE- political conservatism, because:

Conservatives believe in enforcing a set of values which I cannot and do not want to live with.
They want a society I do not want to live in.

Such conservative values are:

* Conscription/work duty (you get jailed for not working at specific places at specific hours and you as a citizen will have no say in it what-so-ever).

* People with mental disabilities should not get care, but punishment.

* Wants to have prejudice and bias control the judicial system. They do not like a fair trial.

* Believe in an inherited hierarchy, with little to no place for those at the bottom to "climb the ladder", so to speak.

* Wants a certain set of beliefs about the universe and human society made into enforced compulsory set of rituals (compulsory religion, church attendance etc.).

* When having their beliefs and opinions questioned, they get angry and aggressive. They refuse any discussion on their set of beliefs and opinions, unless its a one-way-talk in their favour.

You have no idea what conservatism is. Most of those statements apply to the left than the right.

That is very true. The left needs villains and if none are available they will imagine phantom villains.



uncommondenominator
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19 May 2021, 3:50 pm

Mr Reynholm wrote:
Bataar wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
I -HATE- political conservatism, because:

Conservatives believe in enforcing a set of values which I cannot and do not want to live with.
They want a society I do not want to live in.

Such conservative values are:

* Conscription/work duty (you get jailed for not working at specific places at specific hours and you as a citizen will have no say in it what-so-ever).

* People with mental disabilities should not get care, but punishment.

* Wants to have prejudice and bias control the judicial system. They do not like a fair trial.

* Believe in an inherited hierarchy, with little to no place for those at the bottom to "climb the ladder", so to speak.

* Wants a certain set of beliefs about the universe and human society made into enforced compulsory set of rituals (compulsory religion, church attendance etc.).

* When having their beliefs and opinions questioned, they get angry and aggressive. They refuse any discussion on their set of beliefs and opinions, unless its a one-way-talk in their favour.

You have no idea what conservatism is. Most of those statements apply to the left than the right.

That is very true. The left needs villains and if none are available they will imagine phantom villains.


Don't gulp the kool-aid too fast, you might choke.

"ThE lEfT nEeDs ViLlAiNs!! !"

Doesn't conservatism have a potato they need to go scream about? Or a kids book? Or how about all those foreigners at the border again? Or China? Or the Fascist Liberal Media Monster OOGIE BOOGIE SCARY!! ! Which bad guy is to blame today?

But yes, LiBeRaLs!! ! Always inventing imaginary villains :roll:

"VoTeR fRaWd!! !" "LiBeRaL cOnSpIrAcY!" "CaNcEl CuLtUrE!"

Don't choke on the kool-aid.



Tross
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21 May 2021, 12:54 am

I don't hold nearly as harsh a view about Conservatism, though some right-wingers really are fascists, especially those who were so anti-democracy as to storm the capital just because an election didn't go their way, and all in support of a man who would be a dictator if he was allowed to be (though thankfully lacks the IQ to get there). But, those idiots can't possibly be representative of all the people who hold a prominent political ideology.

I have also met my share of Conservatives with good heads on their shoulders. They are the type of people who are articulate, reasonable and have good justification for thinking the way they do. They see the big picture, but recognize first and foremost that we all need to make a living. If that's all Conservatism was about, I would be far more on board with it.

That said, I refuse to join the same club as people who have built a cult around the worship of an orangutan, and ignore facts just because the truth is inconvenient for their agenda. Heck, that's fast becoming a terrorist cult. I will not embrace racism, sexism, or rich people getting ahead while the rest of us are exploited under our system. I despise Liberal censorship, but I don't understand the hypocrisy where it's somehow ok for things to be censored if it's for Conservative reasons. No, I despise all censorship. So, screw Conservatism. At the very least, it needs to be replaced with a more level-headed version of itself that reasonable people can get behind. :roll:



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21 May 2021, 1:20 am

I haven't read the rest of the thread, but looking at the OP, it seems like none of those listed things are part of conservatism. Lets go one by one:

thinkinginpictures wrote:
* Conscription/work duty (you get jailed for not working at specific places at specific hours and you as a citizen will have no say in it what-so-ever).


Thats the first time I ever heard of such policy. No I wouldn't support it. But like I said, I never heard anyone else before (whether conservative or liberal) ever suggest this. So I don't know where you got the idea that conservatives would be in favor of it.

thinkinginpictures wrote:
* People with mental disabilities should not get care, but punishment.


Can you be more specific here? If you are referring to mandatory hospitalization, then yes I know there are opinions on both sides, and yes I agree mandatory hospitalization is wrong.

Personally if it was up to me, I would stop mandatory ECT and mandatory psychiatric mediations immediately. As a matter of fact, I would stop optional ECT too: if someone wants ECT their decision is inherently not "informed". Because the purpose of ECT is to damage your brain. Kind of like if a computer writes 2+2=5, you can just hit it with a hammer, and then it won't be able to write 2+2=5 because, guess what, it won't be able to write anything at all. But then you frame it as "its great it doesn't write 2+2=5, and the fact that it doesn't do other things thats just side effect" and declare hitting it with a hammer a "cure".

Be it as it may, I never heard of conservatives being the ones in favor of mandatory psychiatric treatment. I mean yes I heard that it is controversial, but I didn't hear that it goes along the party lines. But again, I never bothered to look it up either. So I am glad you pointed it out, I will look it up. And if its true that it goes along party lines, and conservatives are the ones being in favor of it, I wouldn't hesitate to say "I fully support liberals when it comes to THIS ISSUE". That, however, doesn't mean I would automatically take liberal side on other issues. I am very much issue-by-issue person.

thinkinginpictures wrote:
* Wants to have prejudice and bias control the judicial system. They do not like a fair trial.


Thats what liberals would allege. Conservatives would say just the opposite.

Liberal narrative: Liberals want unbiased trial, while conservatives want to bias it in favor of whites

Conservative narrative: Conservatives want unbiased trial, while liberals want to bias it in favor of blacks

Actually I believe that both of them are partially right in accusing the other side of being biased. I think both liberals and conservatives have their own biases, so they are both right in pointing out the biases of the other side. Its just too bad they don't see biases of their own.

thinkinginpictures wrote:
* Believe in an inherited hierarchy, with little to no place for those at the bottom to "climb the ladder", so to speak.


Again, it depends on whose narrative you want to listen to.

Liberal narrative: Liberals want everyone to succeed based on their own efforts while conservatives want it to be determined by prior social hierarchy

Conservative narrative: Conservatives want everyone to succeed based on their own effort while liberals want it to be influenced by attempts to *reverse* the prior hierarchy (aka reverse discrimination)

I think both views can be substantiated.

thinkinginpictures wrote:
* Wants a certain set of beliefs about the universe and human society made into enforced compulsory set of rituals (compulsory religion, church attendance etc.).


Some SUBSET of conservatives might want it, but not all. Let me give you an example. Devoted Christians are conservative. However, a lot of them would be opposed to compulsory religion because the Christian prophecy states that the compulsory religion is coming, and it will be headed by antichrist. Since antichrist is likely to pretend to be Christ, that religion is likely to be "Christian" in some form. So in order to prevent this from happening, church and state should be separated.

thinkinginpictures wrote:
* When having their beliefs and opinions questioned, they get angry and aggressive. They refuse any discussion on their set of beliefs and opinions, unless its a one-way-talk in their favour.


That depend on the conservative. Some do that, others don't.

And the same can be said for liberals too. Some liberals do exactly what you just said. Calling someone racist and other names instead of calmly talking about an issue would be a good example of it.

Again, some doesn't mean all. There are other liberals that are calm and collected. But similarly there are also conservatives that are calm and collected.



AngelL
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20 Jul 2021, 10:28 am

Nades wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Nades wrote:
Many have issues with how overbearing some from the LGBT community can be in this country...


This sounds like little more than complaining about people asking for equality too loudly. :roll:


They already have equality. It's been illegal for quite some time to discriminate against LGBT people.


Right. And it's been illegal to pay women less than men for quite some time to. Is that issue resolved?

Nades wrote:
...but I haven't met a non religious conservative who dislikes someone being gay.


Oh my. Well, being from the U.S., this is, of course, not the case. That said, I have lived in fire engine red, rural districts many times and while I found the people's rhetoric and values difficult to stomach, the vast, VAST majority of those I met who talk really hateful about some nebulous 'them' - would stop to help some Brown fellow change a flat who was wearing a rainbow turban. Not saying there aren't some of them who would aim for them with their cars and call it an accident, but that's not how I've found the majority - even if their words make me nauseous.



thinkinginpictures
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20 Jul 2021, 11:51 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57854811

Quote:
Covid: Boris Johnson resisted autumn lockdown as only over-80s dying - Dominic Cummings


That is Conservatism. Right there.

Killing people, because they're only a burden to society. That's Conservatism. That's what the UK Conservative PM wants to do.

Conservatism = Fascism.