Questions for Palestinians, Israelis, others in Middle East?

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kraftiekortie
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22 May 2021, 3:03 pm

Palestine has a much nicer climate than Central Europe. And the Palestinians were in the land for quite a long time. It was their home.

Imagine me being forced to go live on Baffin Island, all of a sudden, after having a home in NYC all my life.

It was a very nasty thing that was done to the Palestinians in 1948—through no fault of their own.



Jiheisho
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22 May 2021, 3:08 pm

It is not just 1948. Palestine was a part of Syria before the Europeans carved it up. And before then, part of the Ottoman Empire.



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22 May 2021, 3:17 pm

Under the British Mandate, there was supposed to be the creation of both a Jewish and a Palestinian state in the Palestine area. The Jewish people weren’t supposed to get all of Palestine.



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22 May 2021, 3:22 pm

And countless wars later, they are still fighting. Sad...



salad
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23 May 2021, 12:05 am

The fact that im hearing WP members seriously suggest its ok to uproot native Palestinians whose ancestors have been here since the days of the Canaanites, which is over 3000 years ago, to make space for a bunch of refugees Europe had the responsibility of treating right instead of dumping them onto another population, is absolutely disgusting.

No, Palestinians will not EVER so much as forfeit an inch of land to make space for a people the Europeans are obligated to accommodate since it was their anti-Semitism that forced Jews to look for a new homeland in the 1st place. It's disgusting, Europeans brutalize Jews, and who has to pay for the aftermath: Palestinians like my family. Disgusting, disgusting, disgusting.

If anyone wants to try that idea and evict more of my people from their ancestral and sacred homeland to make space for a Jewish state at the expense of the people already living there, I welcome them to try it and be met with resistance whose ferocity and savagery will make the 2nd Intifada look like a yoga session. To those who dont know what the 2nd Intifada was:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada

Good luck.


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funeralxempire
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23 May 2021, 12:21 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Palestine has a much nicer climate than Central Europe. And the Palestinians were in the land for quite a long time. It was their home.

Imagine me being forced to go live on Baffin Island, all of a sudden, after having a home in NYC all my life.

It was a very nasty thing that was done to the Palestinians in 1948—through no fault of their own.



Central Europe isn't as bad as Baffin Island (and comes closer to NYC in terms of climate despite being further north) and often was the homeland of the Yiddish people in question.


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23 May 2021, 1:35 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Yep. It comes down to land.

If my neighbor were firing rockets at me over the fence I would have the urge to retaliate with force.

But if my neighbor were trespassing on my property, and were scheming to steal even more property from me I might retaliate by firing rockets at them.

What can ya say?

Alas, I don't think this cycle will ever stop.

Unless....

In your metaphor, what would happen if the trespassing neighbor offered to buy your house, and at around the same time, what if the neighbor's rich uncle showed up and offered both to (1) subsidize the purchase, so you would get more money, and also (2) sell you a much nicer house down the street, at an extraordinarily low price?

Of course, you probably wouldn't trust these offers. If you consider them at all, you would need to take various measures to ensure you don't get ripped off. Assuming you are able to take such measures and they are ironclad, and assuming you could somehow be assured that your neighbor would have no interest in trespassing on the new property, would you refuse even to consider the offer?


Arabs dont sell property to Jews in Israel-Palestine.

But if it were done collectively? One whole nation buying off another whole nation at once?

In 1946 I can imagine a way it could have been done. The newly defeated Germany lost territory to Poland that was larger than all of Palestine anyway. So the allies could have kicked Germans out of a Palestine sized area of Germany (that Germans would have been kicked out of any way), moved the entire Arab population of Palestine to this vacated area, and then let the Jews have all of Palestine to themselves. Jews would have Isreal. the province of Pomerania (formerly German, now the north coast of Poland) would be "the Republic of Palestine" ( a new Arab state in the middle of northern europe), and the only looser would be Germany -whose loss of territory to Arabs would be a form of reparations to the Jews for the Holocaust.

But I dont see how an equivalent thing could be done today. :lol:


Those Germans, though, included women and children, as well as men who had played no part in the Holocaust. In more recent times, Poland and the Czech Republic have even conceded it had been wrong to kick German civilians off their land. Demonizing whole populations for the actions of their governments is never defensible, whether you're talking about Israelis, Palestinians, or Germans.


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Mona Pereth
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23 May 2021, 3:21 am

salad wrote:
If anyone wants to try that idea and evict more of my people from their ancestral and sacred homeland


I am against any policy that would involve evicting anybody.

However, I wonder if the following set of proposals might be workable:

1) Various benefits to be paid to Palestinians living in nearby countries outside of Israel/Palestine, including not only the families of 1948 refugees, but also those who emigrate from Israel/Palestine for any other reason, and also 1948 refugee families living within the Palestinian territories. Such benefits would include not only direct cash payments but also things like scholarships and housing subsidies.

2) Various benefits to be paid to the governments of nearby countries in which Palestinians live, on the conditions that (a) Palestinians be given a reasonable path to full citizenship in those countries and (b) the money be spent on infrastructure/construction projects to improve the overall economies of those countries, with the aims of both (i) integrating the Palestinians into these economies and (ii) offsetting what might otherwise be any hardships caused to the native populations by a large influx of Palestinians.

3) The remaining Palestinians (and Israeli Arabs) would be guaranteed a right to live within Israel/Palestine, including a right not to be evicted from any dwellings currently occupied by Palestinians -- but they would not be guaranteed an absence of any new Jewish neighbors in new buildings on what are currently vacant lots.

4) Some means of ensuring that the Muslim (and Christian) holy places are protected and remain accessible to religious pilgrims from wherever.

5) Funding for items #1 and #2 above would come from Israel, the U.S.A., perhaps Israel's other allies too, perhaps also the UN, and perhaps some private nonprofit foundations. (Israel alone would not be willing to pay for all of it, but should certainly be obliged to pay for at least some of it.)

The only objection I can think of to the above set of proposals is that #3 would eventually destroy Palestine as a distinct nation -- even while #1 and #2 would radically improve the lives of the vast majority of individual Palestinian people and also improve life for most people in nearby Arab-dominated countries as well.

So perhaps the key question here is how important Palestinian national identity is?

Is a Palestinian nation more important than the material well-being of the vast majority of individual Palestinian people, to the extent that any proposal which would radically improve the latter at the expense of the former is ipso facto unacceptable?

I've seen claims, by Zionists, that the idea of a Palestinian national identity simply did not exist before the 20th century. Is this true? If not, I would be very interested to see counter-evidence.

During World War I, when the British recruited Arab leaders as allies against the Ottoman Empire, what the Arab leaders were hoping to get out of this alliance was a single new independent country consisting of all the Arab-dominated regions of what was then the Ottoman Empire. They weren't expecting a bunch of small separate countries such as Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, etc. The borders of these small separate countries were drawn by the British and the French, for their own benefit.

So it would seem that the very idea of Palestine as a "nation," distinct from other Arab-dominated nations, was birthed by Western colonial powers.

If indeed that's true, it's no excuse for disregarding the well-being of the Palestinian people, of course. But should a proposal that would benefit the vast majority of individual Palestinian people (and benefit other Arab countries as well) be dismissed out of hand if it undermines Palestine as a nation?


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 23 May 2021, 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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23 May 2021, 3:52 am

^^^
While it can be argued that there had been no Palestinian identity prior to the 20th century, the same could be said for an Israeli identity. Prior to the late 18th century, there of course had been no American national identity. The legitimacy of one's identity as a nation does not necessarily have to have ancient roots, but in historical events that welds a collective identity among a group of people.


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salad
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23 May 2021, 4:07 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
salad wrote:
If anyone wants to try that idea and evict more of my people from their ancestral and sacred homeland


I am against any policy that would involve evicting anybody.

However, I wonder if the following set of proposals might be workable:

1) Various benefits to be paid to Palestinians living in nearby countries outside of Israel/Palestine, including both the families of 1948 refugees and those who emigrate from Israel/Palestine for any other reason. Such benefits would include not only direct cash payments but also things like scholarships and housing subsidies.

2) Various benefits to be paid to the governments of nearby countries in which Palestinians live, on the conditions that (a) Palestinians be given a reasonable path to full citizenship in those countries and (b) the money be spent on infrastructure/construction projects to improve the overall economies of those countries, with the aims of both (i) integrating the Palestinians into these economies and (ii) offsetting what might otherwise be any hardships caused to the native populations by a large influx of Palestinians.

3) The remaining Palestinians (and Israeli Arabs) would be guaranteed a right to live within Israel/Palestine, including a right not to be evicted from any dwellings currently occupied by Palestinians -- but they would not be guaranteed an absence of any new Jewish neighbors in new buildings on what are currently vacant lots.

4) Some means of ensuring that the Muslim (and Christian) holy places are protected and remain accessible to religious pilgrims from wherever.

5) Funding for items #1 and #2 above would come from Israel, the U.S.A., perhaps Israel's other allies too, perhaps also the UN, and perhaps some private nonprofit foundations. (Israel alone would not be willing to pay for all of it, but should certainly be obliged to pay for at least some of it.)

The only objection I can think of to the above set of proposals is that #3 would eventually destroy Palestine as a distinct nation -- even while #1 and #2 would radically improve the lives of the vast majority of individual Palestinian people and also improve life for most people in nearby Arab-dominated countries as well.

So perhaps the key question here is how important Palestinian national identity is?

Is a Palestinian nation more important than the material well-being of the vast majority of individual Palestinian people, to the extent that any proposal which would radically improve the latter at the expense of the former is ipso facto unacceptable?

I've seen claims, by Zionists, that the idea of a Palestinian national identity simply did not exist before the 20th century. Is this true? If not, I would be very interested to see counter-evidence.

During World War I, when the British recruited Arab leaders as allies against the Ottoman Empire, what the Arab leaders were hoping to get out of this alliance was a single new independent country consisting of all the Arab-dominated regions of what was then the Ottoman Empire. They weren't expecting a bunch of small separate countries such as Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, etc. The borders of these small separate countries were drawn by the British and the French, for their own benefit.

So it would seem that the very idea of Palestine as a "nation," distinct from other Arab-dominated nations, was birthed by Western colonial powers.

If indeed that's true, it's no excuse for disregarding the well-being of the Palestinian people, of course. But should a proposal that would benefit the vast majority of individual Palestinian people (and benefit other Arab countries as well) be dismissed out of hand if it undermines Palestine as a nation?


So long as the settlements are allowed peace isn't an option. Settlements are illegal under international law, illegal according to even Israeli Legal Advisor Theodore Meron, and are an affront to all respect and dignity of the Palestinian people. Also the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza is illegal under all international law, specifically UN Resolution 242.

Modern nation states being a modern concept doesnt negate any of the Palestinians' rights to self determination. It is true that a distinct national consciousness of modern day Palestinians as being defined as Palestinians is new, but the same can be said for Greeks, Indians and even Chinese. Regardless of what we are culturally and how we identify ourselves, we don't want a foreign power to occupy us and deny us self determination. Especially a foreign power that has shown time and time again to be draconian and oppressive to us.

Israel can keep playing the game of dodging explicit international laws calling on it to end the illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, as well as to STOP building settlements, but so long as Israel doesnt want to respect international laws then the Palestinians arent going to stop resisting even if every last one of us has to die.

You dont understand something about the Palestinians. We are a proud people who believe in honor and freedom. Orientalists have always noted that in the character of the Arabs is a strong repulsion to foreign subjugation, and that applies no less today than it did hundreds of years ago. The idea that some foreign power is allowed to occupy us and control us and inject foreign settlements that are illegal into OUR lands without OUR consent, that is grounds for war.

The Palestinians arent a people who will ever capitulate. Trust me when I say if this conflict has to go on even 1,000 more years the Palestinians are up for it if it means securing basic rights guaranteed by international law. Material prosperity won't shut them up.


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salad
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23 May 2021, 4:22 am

I think the people on WP never actually talked to a Palestinian before in real life if they actually think anything will satisfy us except basic rights to self determination. Do people forget that the land of Palestine is no less holy to Muslims than it is to Jews? Do people not remember that the earliest Christians in the world are Palestinian Christians, who also take part in the Palestinian struggle? No self respecting Palestinian would ever acquiesce to a deal that allows a foreign power like Israel to rule over us and subject us to their discriminatory laws and draconian apartheid system and especially to inject their settlers on our land. The settlers are the scum of the earth. They regularly harass native Palestinians, burn our olive trees, start fights with us, and they act like they're invincible because the Israeli army protects them. If Israel wants to build settlements then prepare for more war.

I remember when I was in Palestine back as a 6 year old my only memory of the settlers was a bunch of obnoxious settlers kids tried to harass me and my friend. My friend and I luckily were just starting Karate so we were able to beat them up and chase them off; I even remember throwing a rock at the kid's head and injuring him, which felt good. From that day on I've learned to despise settlers and every one of them is universally despised.

It doesn't matter how wealthy they live and how empty the lot - no settlements means no settlements. Period.


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Mona Pereth
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23 May 2021, 4:31 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
^^^
While it can be argued that there had been no Palestinian identity prior to the 20th century, the same could be said for an Israeli identity. Prior to the late 18th century, there of course had been no American national identity. The legitimacy of one's identity as a nation does not necessarily have to have ancient roots, but in historical events that welds a collective identity among a group of people.

That's true, and my point here is not to argue about the "legitimacy" of Palestinian national identity but to question the basis of its value to the Palestinian people themselves.

It is their right to hold on to their Palestinian identity insofar as they choose to do so. But my question is whether Palestinian national identity has become so important to them that, for example, they would rather starve in an independent Palestinian homeland than thrive anywhere else, even in a nearby Arab-dominated country.

And, if it has become that important, why?


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salad
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23 May 2021, 4:38 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
^^^
While it can be argued that there had been no Palestinian identity prior to the 20th century, the same could be said for an Israeli identity. Prior to the late 18th century, there of course had been no American national identity. The legitimacy of one's identity as a nation does not necessarily have to have ancient roots, but in historical events that welds a collective identity among a group of people.

That's true, and my point here is not to argue about the "legitimacy" of Palestinian national identity but to question the basis of its value to the Palestinian people themselves.

It is their right to hold on to their Palestinian identity insofar as they choose to do so. But my question is whether Palestinian national identity has become so important to them that, for example, they would rather starve in an independent Palestinian homeland than thrive anywhere else, even in a nearby Arab-dominated country.

And, if it has become that important, why?


The answer is simple: its their right to their land, their self determination. Why won't you understand that there is an ethos in some people that is they would prefer the rugged path of freedom and honor over the complacent "peace" of subjugation and slavery even at the expense of material wealth. It's like the adage of the dog beckoning over and then taunting the wolf over the wolf's less favorable material circumstances and telling him how much better the dog has it, only for the wolf to retort to the dog to look down at his collar and whether or not he's allowed to leave.

The Palestinians have a right to keep their land and as per self determination they arent required to accept material compensation quid pro quo on them allowing another foreign power to occupy them and inject illegal settlements.


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23 May 2021, 4:39 am

Mona Pereth wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
^^^
While it can be argued that there had been no Palestinian identity prior to the 20th century, the same could be said for an Israeli identity. Prior to the late 18th century, there of course had been no American national identity. The legitimacy of one's identity as a nation does not necessarily have to have ancient roots, but in historical events that welds a collective identity among a group of people.

That's true, and my point here is not to argue about the "legitimacy" of Palestinian national identity but to question the basis of its value to the Palestinian people themselves.

It is their right to hold on to their Palestinian identity insofar as they choose to do so. But my question is whether Palestinian national identity has become so important to them that, for example, they would rather starve in an independent Palestinian homeland than thrive anywhere else, even in a nearby Arab-dominated country.

And, if it has become that important, why?


What might be important to one group of people might very well seem utterly alien to another group. Maybe Palestinians are willing to give up not just the comforts of life, but necessities in order to have their own country. We Americans pride ourselves for our attitude that life without freedom isn't worth living. That very concept might seem strange to some other society.


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23 May 2021, 4:47 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
^^^
While it can be argued that there had been no Palestinian identity prior to the 20th century, the same could be said for an Israeli identity. Prior to the late 18th century, there of course had been no American national identity. The legitimacy of one's identity as a nation does not necessarily have to have ancient roots, but in historical events that welds a collective identity among a group of people.

That's true, and my point here is not to argue about the "legitimacy" of Palestinian national identity but to question the basis of its value to the Palestinian people themselves.

It is their right to hold on to their Palestinian identity insofar as they choose to do so. But my question is whether Palestinian national identity has become so important to them that, for example, they would rather starve in an independent Palestinian homeland than thrive anywhere else, even in a nearby Arab-dominated country.

And, if it has become that important, why?


What might be important to one group of people might very well seem utterly alien to another group. Maybe Palestinians are willing to give up not just the comforts of life, but necessities in order to have their own country. We Americans pride ourselves for our attitude that life without freedom isn't worth living. That very concept might seem strange to some other society.


"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery" said Thomas Jefferson.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Also said by Thomas Jefferson.

"Give me liberty or give me death," said by Patrick Henry.

But somehow when Palestinians say the same about an infinitely more oppressive government than the British ever was to the Americans who, mind you, were British themselves, somehow that's hard to grasp and a foreign concept. :scratch: :scratch:


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23 May 2021, 4:53 am

The climate of the Levant is much more pleasing than the climate of Central Europe.

If I was a Jerusalamite, I don’t believe I would find the climate of Central Europe pleasing.