Male disposability, the Apex fallacy, and male privilege
30 May 2021, 10:47 am
Nades wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Nades wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Nades wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Nades wrote:
dorkseid wrote:
I often hear about the Glass Ceiling. This is another case of the Apex fallacy at play.
It is true that the vast majority of individuals in positions of upper management are men. But feminists stopped there and never looked any deeper. If they did, they would notice that it is not simply men who make up the majority of people in leadership positions, but rather a particular subset of men. When I worked at a computer products manufacturing plant, I personally noticed that every man in upper management was above 6'. And this is not a coincidence. Height in men corresponds with an increase in wages after controlling for other factors like age and weight, as men earn an additional 1.8% in income for every additional inch. 90% of CEOs are above average in height. Research has shown that humans subconsciously associate height with strength, intelligence, and leadership potential.
The Glass Ceiling is as real for most men as it is for women.
It is true that the vast majority of individuals in positions of upper management are men. But feminists stopped there and never looked any deeper. If they did, they would notice that it is not simply men who make up the majority of people in leadership positions, but rather a particular subset of men. When I worked at a computer products manufacturing plant, I personally noticed that every man in upper management was above 6'. And this is not a coincidence. Height in men corresponds with an increase in wages after controlling for other factors like age and weight, as men earn an additional 1.8% in income for every additional inch. 90% of CEOs are above average in height. Research has shown that humans subconsciously associate height with strength, intelligence, and leadership potential.
The Glass Ceiling is as real for most men as it is for women.
My boss who has a company that turns over about £60 million a year is a relative midget but I agree with the overall fallacy of a glass ceiling.
A lot more of my childless female friends work part time compared to none of my male friends.
The company I worked for wanted someone to cut metal beams all day long. It's a boring as hell job but one that pays well and is dead easy. Knowing my closest female friend was unhappy with her job (she worked as a dental nurse), I decided to ask her if she was interested in such a job as me being one of the longest serving members of the workshop, a referral from me was a guaranteed job position for her that will pay all her bills...............she refused the job as her "heart" wasn't in it. It was a 30k a year job............
What she said hit the nail on the head to the glass celling. A lot of females prefer working with people and males prefer working with things. Seeing you can't live inside of, drive, electrify, build or eat a person (at least not legally last time I checked), you generally can't ask for high pay for dealing with people or service sector work.
The fact is that STEM jobs keeps the world fed and healthy. STEM keeps you warm in the winter, allows you to do online shopping, keeps a roof over your head and gets you from A to B and as such, it gets the lions share of the world finances and women have mostly turned their back on STEM other than the medical side which they appear to do exceptionally well with. Service sector work which women seem to greatly prefer is more of a non essential to a lot of people and many don't need/want to pay premium prices for such work.
The company I work for which is a large engineering company employs exclusively men in the well paid blue collar, hands on side to manufacturing and entirely females in the low pay admin department.
A lot of women simply don't want to work stressful or intense jobs.
Women are still saddled with child care and the "caring" professions.
Maybe stop trying to tie the worth of an individual human to the job they do.
My post was in reply to a previous post about the glass celling so why would I mention anything other than jobs when replying to it?
Childcare is a different issue anyway and I partially addressed it in the post based on the observations I've made on my female friends and work colleague. "A lot more of my childless female friends work part time compared to none of my male friends".
My opinion still can't change when I see the majority of my childless female friends and work colleges work part time compared to my male friends who all work full time. My male friends work roughly double the hours of my female friends and in my workplace, every single woman works part time other than one of the company owners and the purchase ledger assistant.
There is a strong argument to make for professional (degree or higher) female workers in jobs like accountancy, law, medicine and science breaking the glass celling but overall these women seem to be in the minority.
I know this thread isn't solely about carers but that was what my post was in response to.
Anecdotal evidence means jack.
In my experience, women still are burdened with the lion's share of child care and the "caring" professions.
Let's stop measuring the worth of individuals based on their job. If all the women dissapeared, I doubt there would be many men willing to downgrade, and start wiping butts for minimum wage.
It's not just my personal observations. https://www.stemwomen.co.uk/blog/2021/01/women-in-stem-percentages-of-women-in-stem-statistics
Women overall prefer service sector work by a considerable margin and it's generally considered as less skilled.
It's a shame really because if WW2 was anything to go by, women seem highly competent in the trades.
And?
Service sector work is still work.
Are there a bunch of men willing to give up their privilege to wipe butts for minimum wage? No? Then maybe we should stop judging the worth of an individual by the job they do.
Both men and women contribute important things to society.
It is still work but many people don't want to pay a babysitter as much as an electrician and that's where a lot of the arguments in the wage gap revolve around.
What do you mean by "privilege"? All the men I know work 50+ hour weeks in unpleasant and dangerous work environments for their above average pay. If a woman was doing the same job and the same hours she would make exactly the same money.
I'm not judging women only by their jobs. I was just replying to a post made about the glass celling so not surprisingly my post was entirely about jobs.
The fact you think "service sector" jobs are just "babysitting," don't require skills, and therefore don't deserve to be adequately compensated says quite a bit. Hell, you have a male educator in this thread telling you that teaching children requires no small amount of skills and abilities, and the best reply you could come up with was, "Nuh-uh!"
Also, women still get saddled with the majority of the childcare, so, until that changes, they will still be the ones to have to work reduced hours to compensate for that.
Maybe you should consider expanding your personal experience bubble a bit.
_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."
-XFG (no longer a moderator)
30 May 2021, 1:28 pm
XFilesGeek wrote:
Nades wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Nades wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Nades wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Nades wrote:
dorkseid wrote:
I often hear about the Glass Ceiling. This is another case of the Apex fallacy at play.
It is true that the vast majority of individuals in positions of upper management are men. But feminists stopped there and never looked any deeper. If they did, they would notice that it is not simply men who make up the majority of people in leadership positions, but rather a particular subset of men. When I worked at a computer products manufacturing plant, I personally noticed that every man in upper management was above 6'. And this is not a coincidence. Height in men corresponds with an increase in wages after controlling for other factors like age and weight, as men earn an additional 1.8% in income for every additional inch. 90% of CEOs are above average in height. Research has shown that humans subconsciously associate height with strength, intelligence, and leadership potential.
The Glass Ceiling is as real for most men as it is for women.
It is true that the vast majority of individuals in positions of upper management are men. But feminists stopped there and never looked any deeper. If they did, they would notice that it is not simply men who make up the majority of people in leadership positions, but rather a particular subset of men. When I worked at a computer products manufacturing plant, I personally noticed that every man in upper management was above 6'. And this is not a coincidence. Height in men corresponds with an increase in wages after controlling for other factors like age and weight, as men earn an additional 1.8% in income for every additional inch. 90% of CEOs are above average in height. Research has shown that humans subconsciously associate height with strength, intelligence, and leadership potential.
The Glass Ceiling is as real for most men as it is for women.
My boss who has a company that turns over about £60 million a year is a relative midget but I agree with the overall fallacy of a glass ceiling.
A lot more of my childless female friends work part time compared to none of my male friends.
The company I worked for wanted someone to cut metal beams all day long. It's a boring as hell job but one that pays well and is dead easy. Knowing my closest female friend was unhappy with her job (she worked as a dental nurse), I decided to ask her if she was interested in such a job as me being one of the longest serving members of the workshop, a referral from me was a guaranteed job position for her that will pay all her bills...............she refused the job as her "heart" wasn't in it. It was a 30k a year job............
What she said hit the nail on the head to the glass celling. A lot of females prefer working with people and males prefer working with things. Seeing you can't live inside of, drive, electrify, build or eat a person (at least not legally last time I checked), you generally can't ask for high pay for dealing with people or service sector work.
The fact is that STEM jobs keeps the world fed and healthy. STEM keeps you warm in the winter, allows you to do online shopping, keeps a roof over your head and gets you from A to B and as such, it gets the lions share of the world finances and women have mostly turned their back on STEM other than the medical side which they appear to do exceptionally well with. Service sector work which women seem to greatly prefer is more of a non essential to a lot of people and many don't need/want to pay premium prices for such work.
The company I work for which is a large engineering company employs exclusively men in the well paid blue collar, hands on side to manufacturing and entirely females in the low pay admin department.
A lot of women simply don't want to work stressful or intense jobs.
Women are still saddled with child care and the "caring" professions.
Maybe stop trying to tie the worth of an individual human to the job they do.
My post was in reply to a previous post about the glass celling so why would I mention anything other than jobs when replying to it?
Childcare is a different issue anyway and I partially addressed it in the post based on the observations I've made on my female friends and work colleague. "A lot more of my childless female friends work part time compared to none of my male friends".
My opinion still can't change when I see the majority of my childless female friends and work colleges work part time compared to my male friends who all work full time. My male friends work roughly double the hours of my female friends and in my workplace, every single woman works part time other than one of the company owners and the purchase ledger assistant.
There is a strong argument to make for professional (degree or higher) female workers in jobs like accountancy, law, medicine and science breaking the glass celling but overall these women seem to be in the minority.
I know this thread isn't solely about carers but that was what my post was in response to.
Anecdotal evidence means jack.
In my experience, women still are burdened with the lion's share of child care and the "caring" professions.
Let's stop measuring the worth of individuals based on their job. If all the women dissapeared, I doubt there would be many men willing to downgrade, and start wiping butts for minimum wage.
It's not just my personal observations. https://www.stemwomen.co.uk/blog/2021/01/women-in-stem-percentages-of-women-in-stem-statistics
Women overall prefer service sector work by a considerable margin and it's generally considered as less skilled.
It's a shame really because if WW2 was anything to go by, women seem highly competent in the trades.
And?
Service sector work is still work.
Are there a bunch of men willing to give up their privilege to wipe butts for minimum wage? No? Then maybe we should stop judging the worth of an individual by the job they do.
Both men and women contribute important things to society.
It is still work but many people don't want to pay a babysitter as much as an electrician and that's where a lot of the arguments in the wage gap revolve around.
What do you mean by "privilege"? All the men I know work 50+ hour weeks in unpleasant and dangerous work environments for their above average pay. If a woman was doing the same job and the same hours she would make exactly the same money.
I'm not judging women only by their jobs. I was just replying to a post made about the glass celling so not surprisingly my post was entirely about jobs.
The fact you think "service sector" jobs are just "babysitting," don't require skills, and therefore don't deserve to be adequately compensated says quite a bit. Hell, you have a male educator in this thread telling you that teaching children requires no small amount of skills and abilities, and the best reply you could come up with was, "Nuh-uh!"
Also, women still get saddled with the majority of the childcare, so, until that changes, they will still be the ones to have to work reduced hours to compensate for that.
Maybe you should consider expanding your personal experience bubble a bit.
A lot of service sector work is usually less skilled. Also part time work is almost always unskilled and it's favoured a lot by women.
I said it before and I said it again, outside of STEM careers a great deal of the work is less skilled and lower paid and I already provided a link with the proportions of male/female in the STEM fields. This should be pretty obvious as the clue is in the abbreviation STEM meaning Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics so it's no wonder they pay well. A lot of kindergarten school teachers do posses some degree of skill...........just not as much as an scientist and should never be paid as much as a scientist.
The end result of a job is also important too. Someone can be a fantastically skilled chef but there is a limit to how much someone is willing to pay for food. Skill in one job just isn't the same as skill in another job.
What point are you trying to make about women bearing the brunt of childcare too? You've mentioned it several times now and want it to "change" but you haven't said how.
30 May 2021, 1:51 pm
Nades wrote:
I said it before and I said it again, outside of STEM careers a great deal of the work is less skilled and lower paid and I already provided a link with the proportions of male/female in the STEM fields. This should be pretty obvious as the clue is in the abbreviation STEM meaning Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics so it's no wonder they pay well. A lot of kindergarten school teachers do posses some degree of skill...........just not as much as an scientist and should never be paid as much as a scientist.
Being a scientist in STEM but also a mother, I disagree. The latter is way harder - at least for someone with my skill set.
And I admire waitresses. I couldn't work as a waitress, it requires so much stamina, working memory, dexterity, executive functioning... it's simply impossible for me. Good I can do Math instead.
Let's not confuse market value of some work with its difficulty or its value for the society. We could live without financial advisors but we couldn't live without garbage collectors.
_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>
30 May 2021, 2:03 pm
magz wrote:
Nades wrote:
I said it before and I said it again, outside of STEM careers a great deal of the work is less skilled and lower paid and I already provided a link with the proportions of male/female in the STEM fields. This should be pretty obvious as the clue is in the abbreviation STEM meaning Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics so it's no wonder they pay well. A lot of kindergarten school teachers do posses some degree of skill...........just not as much as an scientist and should never be paid as much as a scientist.
Being a scientist in STEM but also a mother, I disagree. The latter is way harder - at least for someone with my skill set.
And I admire waitresses. I couldn't work as a waitress, it requires so much stamina, working memory, dexterity, executive functioning... it's simply impossible for me. Good I can do Math instead.
Let's not confuse market value of some work with its difficulty or its value for the society. We could live without financial advisors but we couldn't live without garbage collectors.
I don't think jobs that require stamina or ones that you can't switch your brain off should be conflated with jobs that require a lot of intellect and takes years to master.
In a very broad sense, it could be said that almost all jobs are essential but should we pay garbage collectors the same amount of money as surgeons simply for working an essential job?
30 May 2021, 2:14 pm
Quote:
A lot of service sector work is usually less skilled. Also part time work is almost always unskilled and it's favoured a lot by women.
I said it before and I said it again, outside of STEM careers a great deal of the work is less skilled and lower paid and I already provided a link with the proportions of male/female in the STEM fields. This should be pretty obvious as the clue is in the abbreviation STEM meaning Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics so it's no wonder they pay well. A lot of kindergarten school teachers do posses some degree of skill...........just not as much as an scientist and should never be paid as much as a scientist.
The end result of a job is also important too. Someone can be a fantastically skilled chef but there is a limit to how much someone is willing to pay for food. Skill in one job just isn't the same as skill in another job.
What point are you trying to make about women bearing the brunt of childcare too? You've mentioned it several times now and want it to "change" but you haven't said how.
I said it before and I said it again, outside of STEM careers a great deal of the work is less skilled and lower paid and I already provided a link with the proportions of male/female in the STEM fields. This should be pretty obvious as the clue is in the abbreviation STEM meaning Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics so it's no wonder they pay well. A lot of kindergarten school teachers do posses some degree of skill...........just not as much as an scientist and should never be paid as much as a scientist.
The end result of a job is also important too. Someone can be a fantastically skilled chef but there is a limit to how much someone is willing to pay for food. Skill in one job just isn't the same as skill in another job.
What point are you trying to make about women bearing the brunt of childcare too? You've mentioned it several times now and want it to "change" but you haven't said how.
You've already demonstrated that you don't have a particularly good grasp of what "skills" are required for teaching/caring/service, and, like Mags said, there is a world of difference between a skill being "marketable" and a skill being important. I can guarantee that the majority of you male STEM co-workers were mostly educated by female teachers.
And, crazy leftist that I am, I believe no one who works 40 hours a week deserves to live in poverty, despite whatever they do for a living.
Lastly, I bring up childcare because one of the main reasons women work fewer hours than men is because they're the ones doing 90% of bringing up the children.
_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."
-XFG (no longer a moderator)
30 May 2021, 2:15 pm
Nades wrote:
I don't think jobs that require stamina or ones that you can't switch your brain off should be conflated with jobs that require a lot of intellect and takes years to master.
In a very broad sense, it could be said that almost all jobs are essential but should we pay garbage collectors the same amount of money as surgeons simply for working an essential job?
I come from a non-capitalist background and my answer is: as long as both can afford fair living, why not?
In a very broad sense, it could be said that almost all jobs are essential but should we pay garbage collectors the same amount of money as surgeons simply for working an essential job?
_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>
30 May 2021, 2:17 pm
Nades wrote:
magz wrote:
Nades wrote:
I said it before and I said it again, outside of STEM careers a great deal of the work is less skilled and lower paid and I already provided a link with the proportions of male/female in the STEM fields. This should be pretty obvious as the clue is in the abbreviation STEM meaning Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics so it's no wonder they pay well. A lot of kindergarten school teachers do posses some degree of skill...........just not as much as an scientist and should never be paid as much as a scientist.
Being a scientist in STEM but also a mother, I disagree. The latter is way harder - at least for someone with my skill set.
And I admire waitresses. I couldn't work as a waitress, it requires so much stamina, working memory, dexterity, executive functioning... it's simply impossible for me. Good I can do Math instead.
Let's not confuse market value of some work with its difficulty or its value for the society. We could live without financial advisors but we couldn't live without garbage collectors.
I don't think jobs that require stamina or ones that you can't switch your brain off should be conflated with jobs that require a lot of intellect and takes years to master.
In a very broad sense, it could be said that almost all jobs are essential but should we pay garbage collectors the same amount of money as surgeons simply for working an essential job?
We should sure as hell pay them more than we do now.
The people "switching their brains off" are providing a necessary service, and are usually destroying their bodies in the process.
_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."
-XFG (no longer a moderator)
30 May 2021, 2:17 pm
magz wrote:
Nades wrote:
I don't think jobs that require stamina or ones that you can't switch your brain off should be conflated with jobs that require a lot of intellect and takes years to master.
In a very broad sense, it could be said that almost all jobs are essential but should we pay garbage collectors the same amount of money as surgeons simply for working an essential job?
I come from a non-capitalist background and my answer is: as long as both can afford fair living, why not?In a very broad sense, it could be said that almost all jobs are essential but should we pay garbage collectors the same amount of money as surgeons simply for working an essential job?
Because nobody would want to be a surgeon when they can get paid the same for picking up trash.
30 May 2021, 2:25 pm
Nades wrote:
magz wrote:
Nades wrote:
I don't think jobs that require stamina or ones that you can't switch your brain off should be conflated with jobs that require a lot of intellect and takes years to master.
In a very broad sense, it could be said that almost all jobs are essential but should we pay garbage collectors the same amount of money as surgeons simply for working an essential job?
I come from a non-capitalist background and my answer is: as long as both can afford fair living, why not?In a very broad sense, it could be said that almost all jobs are essential but should we pay garbage collectors the same amount of money as surgeons simply for working an essential job?
Because nobody would want to be a surgeon when they can get paid the same for picking up trash.
Wrong.
Motivations other than greed absolutely exist. Otherwise, no intelligent people would do teaching or research.
_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>
30 May 2021, 2:26 pm
XFilesGeek wrote:
Quote:
A lot of service sector work is usually less skilled. Also part time work is almost always unskilled and it's favoured a lot by women.
I said it before and I said it again, outside of STEM careers a great deal of the work is less skilled and lower paid and I already provided a link with the proportions of male/female in the STEM fields. This should be pretty obvious as the clue is in the abbreviation STEM meaning Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics so it's no wonder they pay well. A lot of kindergarten school teachers do posses some degree of skill...........just not as much as an scientist and should never be paid as much as a scientist.
The end result of a job is also important too. Someone can be a fantastically skilled chef but there is a limit to how much someone is willing to pay for food. Skill in one job just isn't the same as skill in another job.
What point are you trying to make about women bearing the brunt of childcare too? You've mentioned it several times now and want it to "change" but you haven't said how.
I said it before and I said it again, outside of STEM careers a great deal of the work is less skilled and lower paid and I already provided a link with the proportions of male/female in the STEM fields. This should be pretty obvious as the clue is in the abbreviation STEM meaning Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics so it's no wonder they pay well. A lot of kindergarten school teachers do posses some degree of skill...........just not as much as an scientist and should never be paid as much as a scientist.
The end result of a job is also important too. Someone can be a fantastically skilled chef but there is a limit to how much someone is willing to pay for food. Skill in one job just isn't the same as skill in another job.
What point are you trying to make about women bearing the brunt of childcare too? You've mentioned it several times now and want it to "change" but you haven't said how.
You've already demonstrated that you don't have a particularly good grasp of what "skills" are required for teaching/caring/service, and, like Mags said, there is a world of difference between a skill being "marketable" and a skill being important. I can guarantee that the majority of you male STEM co-workers were mostly educated by female teachers.
And, crazy leftist that I am, I believe no one who works 40 hours a week deserves to live in poverty, despite whatever they do for a living.
Lastly, I bring up childcare because one of the main reasons women work fewer hours than men is because they're the ones doing 90% of bringing up the children.
All teachers get paid a fair bit where I live but nothing will change my mind that teachers in high schools are more skilled than teachers in kindergartens and likewise university lecturers are even more skilled than both.
"like Mags said, there is a world of difference between a skill being "marketable" and a skill being important" I know and that's why I have no issue service sector work being paid less than STEM work depending on what that work is.
Yeah I know women do that vast majority of bringing up a child. I still don't understand what point you're making though.
30 May 2021, 2:28 pm
magz wrote:
Nades wrote:
magz wrote:
Nades wrote:
I don't think jobs that require stamina or ones that you can't switch your brain off should be conflated with jobs that require a lot of intellect and takes years to master.
In a very broad sense, it could be said that almost all jobs are essential but should we pay garbage collectors the same amount of money as surgeons simply for working an essential job?
I come from a non-capitalist background and my answer is: as long as both can afford fair living, why not?In a very broad sense, it could be said that almost all jobs are essential but should we pay garbage collectors the same amount of money as surgeons simply for working an essential job?
Because nobody would want to be a surgeon when they can get paid the same for picking up trash.
Wrong.
Motivations other than greed absolutely exist. Otherwise, no intelligent people would do teaching or research.
100k a year for collecting trash seems incredibly greedy to me. Motivations to exist other than money but you need to be an idiot to become a surgeon knowing you can have the same lifestyle being a bin man and finishing work at 2pm every day.
30 May 2021, 2:32 pm
XFilesGeek wrote:
Nades wrote:
magz wrote:
Nades wrote:
I said it before and I said it again, outside of STEM careers a great deal of the work is less skilled and lower paid and I already provided a link with the proportions of male/female in the STEM fields. This should be pretty obvious as the clue is in the abbreviation STEM meaning Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics so it's no wonder they pay well. A lot of kindergarten school teachers do posses some degree of skill...........just not as much as an scientist and should never be paid as much as a scientist.
Being a scientist in STEM but also a mother, I disagree. The latter is way harder - at least for someone with my skill set.
And I admire waitresses. I couldn't work as a waitress, it requires so much stamina, working memory, dexterity, executive functioning... it's simply impossible for me. Good I can do Math instead.
Let's not confuse market value of some work with its difficulty or its value for the society. We could live without financial advisors but we couldn't live without garbage collectors.
I don't think jobs that require stamina or ones that you can't switch your brain off should be conflated with jobs that require a lot of intellect and takes years to master.
In a very broad sense, it could be said that almost all jobs are essential but should we pay garbage collectors the same amount of money as surgeons simply for working an essential job?
We should sure as hell pay them more than we do now.
The people "switching their brains off" are providing a necessary service, and are usually destroying their bodies in the process.
They are paid a lot. I used to work with one.
30 May 2021, 2:40 pm
Nades wrote:
100k a year for collecting trash seems incredibly greedy to me. Motivations to exist other than money but you need to be an idiot to become a surgeon knowing you can have the same lifestyle being a bin man and finishing work at 2pm every day.
Where did you get these 100k a year? Is it the amount you need for a fair life where you live?So, are teachers unskilled idiots? Are PhD students idiots? Was my grandfather an idiot for working a highly skilled and responsible job in a socialist state?
_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
<not moderating PPR stuff concerning East Europe>
30 May 2021, 2:47 pm
magz wrote:
Nades wrote:
100k a year for collecting trash seems incredibly greedy to me. Motivations to exist other than money but you need to be an idiot to become a surgeon knowing you can have the same lifestyle being a bin man and finishing work at 2pm every day.
Where did you get these 100k a year? Is it the amount you need for a fair life where you live?So, are teachers unskilled idiots? Are PhD students idiots? Was my grandfather an idiot for working a highly skilled and responsible job in a socialist state?
100k is about the amount of money a surgeon makes. Either the bin mans pay goes up to 100k a year or the surgeon is taking a huge pay cut for them to both be paid the same.
If they're accepting the pay of a bin man with the exception of kindergarten teachers then yes, they're idiots.
There will be a serious issue with brain drains if pay is equalized like that. You're right about some people doing complex jobs for passion and passion alone............but that isn't a sole factor for most who work those jobs and they'll be on the first plane out of any country that implements pay like that.
30 May 2021, 3:37 pm
Nades wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Quote:
A lot of service sector work is usually less skilled. Also part time work is almost always unskilled and it's favoured a lot by women.
I said it before and I said it again, outside of STEM careers a great deal of the work is less skilled and lower paid and I already provided a link with the proportions of male/female in the STEM fields. This should be pretty obvious as the clue is in the abbreviation STEM meaning Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics so it's no wonder they pay well. A lot of kindergarten school teachers do posses some degree of skill...........just not as much as an scientist and should never be paid as much as a scientist.
The end result of a job is also important too. Someone can be a fantastically skilled chef but there is a limit to how much someone is willing to pay for food. Skill in one job just isn't the same as skill in another job.
What point are you trying to make about women bearing the brunt of childcare too? You've mentioned it several times now and want it to "change" but you haven't said how.
I said it before and I said it again, outside of STEM careers a great deal of the work is less skilled and lower paid and I already provided a link with the proportions of male/female in the STEM fields. This should be pretty obvious as the clue is in the abbreviation STEM meaning Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics so it's no wonder they pay well. A lot of kindergarten school teachers do posses some degree of skill...........just not as much as an scientist and should never be paid as much as a scientist.
The end result of a job is also important too. Someone can be a fantastically skilled chef but there is a limit to how much someone is willing to pay for food. Skill in one job just isn't the same as skill in another job.
What point are you trying to make about women bearing the brunt of childcare too? You've mentioned it several times now and want it to "change" but you haven't said how.
You've already demonstrated that you don't have a particularly good grasp of what "skills" are required for teaching/caring/service, and, like Mags said, there is a world of difference between a skill being "marketable" and a skill being important. I can guarantee that the majority of you male STEM co-workers were mostly educated by female teachers.
And, crazy leftist that I am, I believe no one who works 40 hours a week deserves to live in poverty, despite whatever they do for a living.
Lastly, I bring up childcare because one of the main reasons women work fewer hours than men is because they're the ones doing 90% of bringing up the children.
All teachers get paid a fair bit where I live but nothing will change my mind that teachers in high schools are more skilled than teachers in kindergartens and likewise university lecturers are even more skilled than both.
"like Mags said, there is a world of difference between a skill being "marketable" and a skill being important" I know and that's why I have no issue service sector work being paid less than STEM work depending on what that work is.
Yeah I know women do that vast majority of bringing up a child. I still don't understand what point you're making though.
So, in your opinion, teaching/caring/service are unimportant? Good luck running our current society without those jobs.
And women work fewer hours because they provide the majority of child care. I can't dumb it down any further.
Lastly, garbage men should get paid more. So should scientists. Billionaires shouldn't exist, and labor should be much more highly valued.
And, at this point, I'm gonna nope outta this thread as it's proving to be a time thief.
_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."
-XFG (no longer a moderator)
30 May 2021, 4:05 pm
XFilesGeek wrote:
Nades wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Quote:
A lot of service sector work is usually less skilled. Also part time work is almost always unskilled and it's favoured a lot by women.
I said it before and I said it again, outside of STEM careers a great deal of the work is less skilled and lower paid and I already provided a link with the proportions of male/female in the STEM fields. This should be pretty obvious as the clue is in the abbreviation STEM meaning Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics so it's no wonder they pay well. A lot of kindergarten school teachers do posses some degree of skill...........just not as much as an scientist and should never be paid as much as a scientist.
The end result of a job is also important too. Someone can be a fantastically skilled chef but there is a limit to how much someone is willing to pay for food. Skill in one job just isn't the same as skill in another job.
What point are you trying to make about women bearing the brunt of childcare too? You've mentioned it several times now and want it to "change" but you haven't said how.
I said it before and I said it again, outside of STEM careers a great deal of the work is less skilled and lower paid and I already provided a link with the proportions of male/female in the STEM fields. This should be pretty obvious as the clue is in the abbreviation STEM meaning Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics so it's no wonder they pay well. A lot of kindergarten school teachers do posses some degree of skill...........just not as much as an scientist and should never be paid as much as a scientist.
The end result of a job is also important too. Someone can be a fantastically skilled chef but there is a limit to how much someone is willing to pay for food. Skill in one job just isn't the same as skill in another job.
What point are you trying to make about women bearing the brunt of childcare too? You've mentioned it several times now and want it to "change" but you haven't said how.
You've already demonstrated that you don't have a particularly good grasp of what "skills" are required for teaching/caring/service, and, like Mags said, there is a world of difference between a skill being "marketable" and a skill being important. I can guarantee that the majority of you male STEM co-workers were mostly educated by female teachers.
And, crazy leftist that I am, I believe no one who works 40 hours a week deserves to live in poverty, despite whatever they do for a living.
Lastly, I bring up childcare because one of the main reasons women work fewer hours than men is because they're the ones doing 90% of bringing up the children.
All teachers get paid a fair bit where I live but nothing will change my mind that teachers in high schools are more skilled than teachers in kindergartens and likewise university lecturers are even more skilled than both.
"like Mags said, there is a world of difference between a skill being "marketable" and a skill being important" I know and that's why I have no issue service sector work being paid less than STEM work depending on what that work is.
Yeah I know women do that vast majority of bringing up a child. I still don't understand what point you're making though.
So, in your opinion, teaching/caring/service are unimportant? Good luck running our current society without those jobs.
And women work fewer hours because they provide the majority of child care. I can't dumb it down any further.
Lastly, garbage men should get paid more. So should scientists. Billionaires shouldn't exist, and labor should be much more highly valued.
And, at this point, I'm gonna nope outta this thread as it's proving to be a time thief.
They are important but they often don't command a lot of money.
Yeah they work fewer hours because of childcare, I've always known that but you implied it should be "fixed" somehow. All of my female friends who don't have kids also work part time though.
Garbage men do get paid a decent amount of money in my country.
