New Restrictions on Abortion Have Real World Consequences
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27 May 2021, 12:27 pm
-It would have prevented a 13-year-old who was raped by her grandfather from getting an abortion.
-"What would her life be like? How different would it be?" said her provider, Dr. Bhavik Kumar.
When Gov. Greg Abbott of Texas signed an unusually restrictive abortion ban into law last week, Dr. Bhavik Kumar was pained to think about the people it would hurt the most - patients like those he's served as an abortion provider at the Planned Parenthood Center for Choice in Houston.
The law, which is expected to be challenged and is not yet in effect, forbids abortions after six weeks of pregnancy and makes no exceptions for rape or incest.
"While politicians pass these laws in faraway buildings, we actually see these people, we take care of them," Kumar told Insider. "There are people depending on us. They have names. They have families. And their ability to access care will make the world of difference to them."
The story of a 13-year-old girl remains salient. She'd been raped by her grandfather and told her mom when she stopped getting her periods. A doctor confirmed she was pregnant, but the girl couldn't get an abortion close to home in Texas, where abortion access is already limited, so she was driven hours to Kumar's clinic.
"She shouldn't have to be dealing with any of what she's dealt with, but when I think about if a law like this were to go into effect and she wasn't able to access abortion, if that's what she had chosen, then what would her life be like? How different would it be?" Kumar said. "It's difficult for me to think about that, to have that choice robbed from somebody."
More recently, Kumar saw a 17-year-old who'd been roofied and raped at their first party. They didn't know who the perpetrator was. "They decided not to be pregnant. They didn't even make the decision to have sex. So this [law] would not give them any options; it would force them to carry that pregnancy," Kumar said.
Theoretically, patients like the two teens could travel to neighboring states with less restrictive abortion bans, but that takes time, money, and other resources.
A poll found that more than three-quarters of Americans support exceptions for rape and incest
The bill justifies not allowing exceptions for rape and incest by saying that "public and private agencies" provide "emergency contraception for victims of rape or incest."
State Sen. Bryan Hughes, a sponsor of the bill, told CNN that law enforcement should hold perpetrators accountable but not hurt the fetus. "Let's harshly punish the rapist, but we don't, we don't punish the unborn child," he said.
Abortions due to rape and incest are rare. A 2005 report from the Guttmacher Institute found that 1% of women who'd gotten abortions said they did so because they conceived through rape, and less than 0.5% said they did so because of incest.
A 2018 Gallup poll found that 77% of Americans said they supported abortions in the first trimester in cases of rape and incest, and 52% said they still supported it in the third trimester.
I've seen posters suggest that adding restriction after restriction doesn't really matter because the right still exists in some capacity no matter how impossible it is made to express it, but no, that's not how rights work. Passing anti-choice laws results in victims of child sexual exploitation being forced to carry pregnancies resulting from those acts to term because even when rape exceptions exist often there are demands that proof be shown and if no criminal charges were filed that means it will likely be treated as not proven.
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27 May 2021, 1:03 pm
Should theft be legal because it might theoretically save someone from starving? Should abortion be generally legal because of rare (even the article says so) cases like this? No. There's room to compromise and tweak, but it is a poor counter to the general immorality of abortion.
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Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!
27 May 2021, 3:10 pm
I agree with Mikah. There was a woman at a Pro-Life event that I went to who is very happy to be alive. I feel that all babies should be protected in the womb, even rape babies.
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27 May 2021, 8:01 pm
It's funny how babies should be protected IN the womb, but once they LEAVE the womb, they can't be bothered. It's also funny how "protecting babies" seems to mostly just mean force women to have them, and stops there. Food and clothes for the baby? Nope, mom's job. Healthcare for mom while she carries the ever-so-important baby? Nope, also mom's job. Financial support to help take care of the baby? Still mom's job. So basically "protecting babies" is forcing women to have them, and then buggering off for a beer.
"Gee, I'm sorry you were raped. But ALL life is sacred, which is why you should be literally painfully and inconveniently reminded about your rape for the next 9 months of pregnancy, and 18 years of child raising. What? NO, you won't get any help! If you weren't prepared to have a kid, you should have thought about that before you got raped. It's YOUR kid, YOUR responsibility! And I DID help! I made you have the kid! MY job is done!"
It's also weird how "laws don't stop people from getting drugs", and "laws don't stop people from getting guns", but somehow laws can TOTALLY stop women from getting abortions.
And, how gun restrictions can save lives, but, thats evil cos MUH FREEDUMZ! - but when it comes to abortions it's "to hell with your FREEDOM, there's LIVES at stake!"
And, how if they say you're an unfit parent, they take your kid, but if you want an abortion, they make you have and keep the kid.
If the only thing you do to "protect" kids - born or unborn - is force the woman to have and raise the kid, you can stop patting yourself on the back any time.
Not only is this leverage against women, it's leverage against POOR women - cos people with money just catch a flight to a country that does allow abortions. Tell everyone you went to thailand for a "wellness cleanse".
It just seems weird, to be so vehemently obsessed with making sure the kid is born - because all life is sacred! - but not actually HELP in any way, and not really give a damn once it IS born. It's almost as if the only REALLY important part is the make-women-do-something part.
Do you donate to single-mother charities?
"No."
Do you adopt children that can't be taken care of?
"No."
Do you volunteer at orphanages?
"No."
Do you offer daycare to single mothers or low income familes?
"No."
Do you support free prenatal medical care or post natal child care?
"No."
Then what DO you do?
"Shame other people into conforming to my beliefs, and expect the government to punish them if they don't."
Apparently, although "all lives matter", some lives matter more than others. The lump of cells that may one day become a child apparently matters more than the 13 year old that already IS a child.
28 May 2021, 7:21 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
A straw man (sometimes written as strawman) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".
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Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!
28 May 2021, 4:21 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
A straw man (sometimes written as strawman) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".
Cool, you know how to google a fallacy. I'm surprised that the page didn't also talk about the fallacy-fallacy, wherein someone CLAIMS something is a fallacy, even though it isn't.
Your empty shriek that my "rant" is an "ad hominem" carries no more weight than if I said you were a pirouetting polka-dotted porcupine, folded my arms triumphantly, and acted smug. A statement in itself is not a compelling argument.
So, if it IS false, then tell us all what you do to support all these precious children, other than demand the mothers give birth, and pat yourself on the back. DO YOU give money to charities? DO YOU vote for medical care for single mothers? HAVE YOU ever volunteered at a women's center? DO YOU take care of children that aren't yours? Have you ever even changed a diaper or fed an infant a meal? Bought food or clothes for an infant? Tell us your mighty contributions to the cause, that will make me eat my words, and show me how wrong I was. OTHER than expecting women to have babies, what exactly DO you do?
Cos my point is, people demand the babies be born, but then do nothing else to help. So if you dispute that, tell us how YOU help, OTHER than fighting to make sure the kids get born, or other restrictions on women, that still require nothing more from you, other than imposing those restrictions.
Furthermore, is it false that if a parent doesn't take appropriate care of a child, child protective services takes the kid? I'm pretty sure kids get taken if parents don't take care of the kids. So, you make the kid be born, then take it away anyways if the parent neglects them. It really kinda sounds like women are just expected to be baby-factories...
Also, it's more than ironic that you respond to my "rant" by regurgitating a wiki page and making a fuss about avoiding addressing points, while completely avoiding addressing my points, by dismissing it as a rant and an ad-hominem, while not actually addressing any of the points to demonstrate HOW they are fallacious.
Nice try tho.
28 May 2021, 5:02 pm
I didn't say that. Ad hominem is not the same as a straw man, though I suppose there is a hint of ad hominem in your arguments, assuming uncharitable traits in your opponents.
You make these arguments in a debate on whether or not it is moral to terminate these unwanted children. Has it occurred to you that you are indirectly arguing that needing support and charity post-birth is a valid reason to kill someone?
We demand they not be killed, at least not without very good reasons. That, I think, is the foundation of any moral position towards another human being. The arguments around how much a society should/could support those in need is fluff if you are happy to kill someone for your own convenience or other frivolous reasons.
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Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!
28 May 2021, 5:55 pm
I think uncommondenominator makes a good point.
I'd love to see some plans to address poverty, child abuse, food insecurity, lack of safe housing and sanitation that exists in the US anyway. If we, Americans, could spend our time and effort and money into these goals, there would be much less call for abortion.
Saying that abortion is like "murder" in a pregnant woman is a false analogy. Pregnancy is a state in which a "person" (even if just a few cells at that time) biologically lives/functions as a parasite on another. There is no other biological situation similar in humans.
The closest I can think of is conjoined twins and it is not considered murder to separate the twins surgically when one will surely die because they share too many biological structures and there is only enough for one child.
I don't expect to change anyone's mind here. And I don't need to see a bunch of back and forth of everyone repeating the same things over and over again. Express your opinion and move on. That's what I am doing.
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The river is the melody
And sky is the refrain - Gordon Lightfoot
28 May 2021, 6:04 pm
Shouldn’t we take care of the ones here already?
Forcing a woman or girl to carry a child that’s unwanted won’t make her a good mother.
If people really cared about the kids why are there so many waiting to be adopted?
People complain about abortion but when a single mom or dad applies for welfare then they whine about that.
If every person that truly cared about human life adopted a child there would be no foster kids left.
Also some pro-life conservatives want the children at the border deported.I guess only white children are worth saving.
You won’t stop abortion, you just send it underground.How many young women will die because of infection or complications from a back ally abortion?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.father ... risis/amp/
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I am the dust that dances in the light. - Rumi
28 May 2021, 6:11 pm
Is There Anything Really Moral About The
Imbalance of Consuming Humans Taking
Away the Existence of 1 in 8 Animal And
Plant Species, The
Next Few Decades;
In Short,
Hell No;
Humans Don't Have
Enough smARTS of Respect
To Take Care of Their Own Home;
Honest To God, If There is A God That's
Real, Yes Nature; i Doubt That Nature is Shedding Many Tears (Except Us)
In Reductions of Force of Human Killing Pandemics, However that comes...
Other than that Abortion Is Part of Nature; It's Not Going Anywhere As the
World Health Organization Shows That Where Abortion Is Illegal in Catholic Mexico,
The Amount of Misery And Suffering is Higher Overall, Than Countries Where There are
At Least
Humane
Options Greater
Than A Young Woman,
Whose Father, A Prominent Deacon,
Bought my Beautiful Green Teal Camaro
For His Daughter In Cash; Thousands in Fresh
Green Hundred Dollar Bills; Later on the News Reports
That A Dog Brought Up A Body Part of A Baby to the Family
Home; Sadly, The Daughter Terrified That She Broke The Church
Rule of Obedience In Abstinence, Hid The Pregnancy And Delivered
The Baby Dead in the Woods; Where Pre-Natal Care And Reality Would Have
Been a Much Greater Teacher Than The True Immorality of Ignorance That Doesn't
Even Understand
Human Nature
And Damn
Sure Doesn't
Understand How Nature
Works for Real; We Live And Die;
And the Ignorant Suffer the Immorality of the Ignorant...
Countries That Rule By Ignorance Suffer Consequences
No Matter 'Religion'...
And As Whole,
Rest of
Nature too;
'The Religion
oF IGNorance'
Is A Most Immoral
Part of Humankind that
Harms, Maims, Rapes And Kills All of Nature Now...
It's True, Humans Have Real World Consequences;
Go Cry Some 'Alligator Tears' For The Rest of Nature too...
Other than That It's Just Common Sense/Feel; Anyone Whose Been
in 'The Real World' Here, Understands We Are Not Going to Eliminate Abortion
For There Are Too Many Ways to Do It; To Escape all the Other Dark Aspects of Life
That Harm
Folks Much
More Than What We
See Now; Abortions are
At The Lowest Rates Since 1973;
Credit Family Planning; Effective Easily Accessible, Affordable,
Available Contraception; More Education In General Reducing Pandemics oF iGgnorance...
All the Things So-Called Religious/Political Moral Authority Wants to Take Away So More
Folks In Effect Will Suffer...
Some Folks Wanna Make
The United States into
A Third World
Religious
Ruled
Country
oF iGNorance;
Fortunately, The
Pews oF iGnorance
Are Clearing Out to Less
Than 50 Percent As Opposed
to 70 Percent, Just 20 Years Ago...
Some States Will Go the Way of Dodo Birds until a bit later...
Sound of Nature Clapping God Applause Thunderous Lightening Strikes
Truth iN LiGHT
Now Dead
Or Alive;
DarK
Thru
LiGHT;
Balance,
Karma Law
Remaining All...
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28 May 2021, 6:14 pm
It isn't parasitism, it's a part of the human life cycle.
Pregnancy is temporary. If the hypothetical conjoined twins can be safely separated after 9 months...
No one is forcing them to keep the child after birth. Forcing a child to endure social services, however bad, is still preferable to killing them.
Laws don't entirely prevent theft either and sometimes thieves die while carrying out their crimes. Is that an argument to legalise?
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Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!
28 May 2021, 6:22 pm
/\How many children have you adopted?
Do you participate in big brother programs?
Have you ever been pregnant?lol
Not your body so not your choice.
You won’t stop it, just like prohibition didn’t work and neither did the war on drugs.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/s ... ion-facts/
Oh yeah, foster care sucks.
https://www.focusforhealth.org/sex-abus ... re-system/
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I am the dust that dances in the light. - Rumi
28 May 2021, 7:01 pm
Do you participate in big brother programs?
Have you ever been pregnant?lol
These are irrelevant deflections to the central problem of abortion - the termination of a life.
Stupid sound bite. But if you like sound bites: the baby's body is not yours to have dismantled, so not your choice. You probably already agree with that if you follow fashionable opinion, and I suspect you do, regarding legal limits on the age of a baby at termination.
This is not an argument for legalisation as above and it's wishful thinking anyway. While no law eradicates crime completely, stern enough punishments do have an effect. Prohibition failed because it wasn't seriously pursued by law enforcement. Possession wasn't even a crime. A law that seriously punished both seeking (even abroad) and performing abortion would have a dramatic effect.
Therefore we should kill children painlessly to save them from it?
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Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!
28 May 2021, 7:23 pm
If I’m growing it in my womb, than it is a part of me.It can’t survive without me supporting it till it reaches a certain stage.I am against late term abortion unless there is a medical reason.Not because it’s a trendy thing, I’ve held these beliefs my whole adult life.
If you read the Amnesty article you would have seen how many illegal abortions are preformed and how many women die from them.It’s been around forever.No matter how much you want it to not be, it will.
From a religious point of view the Bible says nothing against abortion.The life of the mother is another thing.
Exodus 21:22-25.
Anyway if you are a Christian than the aborted fetus gets a straight ticket to heaven avoiding all the bull s**t here on Earth.They’d probably be thankful.
Punishing a frightened teenage girl for having an abortion is cruel.You'll just have more secret abortions at home with who knows what and girls will die because they won’t seek medical help if it’s botched .I guess their life is of no value.
Capital punishment hasn’t stopped people from murdering each other.
And yeah, put your beliefs into practice, adopt a child that’s unwanted.Otherwise it’s just so much hot air forcing your ethics onto others.
Possession of drugs not a crime? Tell that to my family member in the pen for weed.I doubt it will hamper them wanting a toke when they get out.
What should we have done to enforce prohibition? Line the drinkers and bootleggers up and shoot them?That’ll show them.
A human life is worth more than a zygote in my opinion.
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I am the dust that dances in the light. - Rumi
28 May 2021, 8:22 pm
Inside a body is not necessarily the same as a "part of" or "owned" as implied. Some want to believe it is so for babies - just for part of this argument. Once viability enters the argument, female bodily autonomy magically disappears - suddenly the baby has gained bodily rights despite still growing inside a woman.
There is no scientific or philosophical principle that says just because a human is bodily dependent on another person, as we all are in our early lives, that it is always fine to terminate that support. This is just another fake "principle" made up specifically to absolve abortion.
Why? It's still a part of your body according your own reasoning. In theory you should be ok with terminations the day before the due date.
You have either not understood the arguments in previous posts or are deliberately ignoring them because you don't want to tackle them.
The Bible doesn't say anything specifically about video piracy either, sometimes we have to use our heads.
Just flailing in the wind now aren't we.
All punishment is cruel, but that's how human justice systems work. You are straying again from the argument - the morality of an abortion by appealing to the emotions of would-be criminals. Try it for other crimes, see how it sounds.
Covered already.
So murder should be legal, safe and regulated?
Here we go again. Only in this argument does desiring to prevent murder require a promise to take care of the would-be victim's every need from cradle to grave. Think George Floyd's death was wrong? What have you personally done to offset the costs of keeping such people around? In fact, if you sided with George you have to promise to personally support other petty Black criminals financially for life to hold that opinion.
Said no one.
Ever.
I was referring to possession of alcohol during prohibition. There is a similar problem of de facto legalisation for possession in the modern war on drugs, but this is not the place for that argument.
A multi-year sentence would have sufficed I think, at least to put off those with some measure of self-control and ability to plan for the future.
A zygote is a human life. It's part of the human life cycle.
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Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!
28 May 2021, 9:17 pm
There are scientific and philosophical principals that support a woman’s right to choose.
https://srh.bmj.com/content/39/1/51
A zygote can’t survive outside the womb and a late term baby can.That is why I don’t believe in late term unless there is a medical reason.
You ignore the deaths of thousands of women.You are stepping around that issue.Perhaps you think of women as disposable wombs.
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-shee ... e-abortion
Any form of inhumane punishment is ethically wrong.Of course that will depend on your definition of inhumane.
Murder is legal and regulated , it’s called capital punishment and warfare.
The Bible does cover video piracy, it’s called theft.
George Floyd was murdered.I have no idea where you are going with supporting petty criminals and adoption.
Keeping such people around?Sounds sort of racist to me.He didn’t deserve to die over a fake twenty.No one does.
Sure women can carry a baby to term and offer it up for adoption.The problem is people don’t want to adopt crack or meth babies.The demand is for healthy white babies ,not sick babies of color.
In poverty stricken countries children starve to death because of large families.
It’s better to have a few children and be able to support them instead of burying half of them.Birth control and sterilization should be free and available for all.That would cut down on the need for abortions.
I see abortion as a necessary evil,rape, incest,more kids than one can feed, medical reasons , the age of the mother ( some girls start their periods early,as in eleven).
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I am the dust that dances in the light. - Rumi
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