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salad
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02 Jun 2021, 2:03 am

dorkseid wrote:
salad wrote:
For every vice of Muhammad he had at least 1000 virtues that more than make up for it.


salad wrote:
The Hadeeth is actually the most reliable source of information in Islam. Secular scholars dont know what they are talking about calling it unreliable.


I'm curious about where you're getting your information from.

salad wrote:
But I agree that the claim that Muhammad is infallible morally speaking is a major setback to the Muslim world given how many flaws of character he had that had to be codified into islamic law or else nullifying Islam's edifice by conceding the fallibility of Muhammad


To be fair, that's generally the problem with most religions.


Its been a looooong time since studying Islam seriously like I used to, but when I did study islam I studied under the writings of the top scholars of Islam, both White orientalists and classical scholars. Some names that ive read a lot from are Daniel Pipes, Bernard Lewis, Montgomery Watt, Abdullah Al-Salabi, Ibn Kathir, Al-Tabari, Sheikh Safi-ur-Rahman al-Mubarkpuri, Yasir Qadhi and even critics of Islam like Robert Spencer. Reading everything I did it was obvious that the Hadiths are reliable, in fact so reliable they are the most authentic source of information in the historical world, something that impressed even me.

As for Muhammad's virtues there are millions actually; he was an advocate for orphans (although his abrogating adoption was sh***y imo), encouraged the marrying of widows, banned child burial, limited the number of wives a man can have (before Muhammad men could have unlimited number of wives, although allowing unlimited concubines was messed up), banned racism effectively (Islam is arguably the truest anti-racist movement in history), lived a frugal and austere lifestyle even when offered riches, he was magnanimous as hell on more than one occasion (although he wasn't perfectly magnanimous all the times since he allowed the assassination of those who merely slandered him), he created a very robust social service system that led to a proto-welfare system with the Bay-Al Mal and Zakah, mandated the treating of slaves with dignity and respect (although I agree he should have outright banned slavery altogether), and a billion other virtues that are apparent reading his biography.

The man did evil things but his virtues were exemplary in of themselves


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dorkseid
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02 Jun 2021, 10:05 am

salad wrote:
Reading everything I did it was obvious that the Hadiths are reliable, in fact so reliable they are the most authentic source of information in the historical world, something that impressed even me.


I don't know what to tell you, man. This is so obviously inaccurate that I just can't take what you're telling me seriously.

salad wrote:
As for Muhammad's virtues there are millions actually; he was an advocate for orphans (although his abrogating adoption was sh***y imo), encouraged the marrying of widows, banned child burial,


No human being is perfectly good or perfectly evil. And while Mohammed was severely flawed, I'm sure he wasn't a comical moustache twirling villain. He was simply human. He likely had some good intentions and saw what he was doing as mostly good. It is highly likely that he suffered from schizophrenia and other mental illnesses, and what we know about modern cult leaders and cults of personality strongly suggests that he suffered from Narcissistic Personality Disorder. In any event, I'm not saying that nothing he did was good, but that he had "a million virtues for every flaw" is an absurd claim to make about anyone.

salad wrote:
limited the number of wives a man can have (before Muhammad men could have unlimited number of wives, although allowing unlimited concubines was messed up),


But did you notice how he made an exception for himself?

salad wrote:
banned racism effectively (Islam is arguably the truest anti-racist movement in history),


While it is true that Islam is anti-racist, it simply replaces racism with the Dimi system of religious preauction and discrimination that is just as bad. Non-Muslim are second-class citizens, and are forced to pay what amounts to protection money or face state violence (Quran 9-29). As Islam spread throughout North Africa and south and southeast Asia, poor families who couldn't afford to pat the Jizya often had their children stolen and sold into slavery. Hundreds of thousands converted to Islam to avoid that fate. None-Muslims are required to wear clothing or haircuts that visibly identify them and are forced to surrender their homes and belonging to be used by Muslims at any given time.

By the way, have you ever heard the story of how Bilal Ibn Rabbah was so holy that he became white when he entered Heaven? I lived in Muslim society for 13 years of my life, and I can tell you that racism is just as alive and well as it is anywhere else.

salad wrote:
lived a frugal and austere lifestyle even when offered riches,


Actually, once Islam gained a significant number of followers and its influence and power grew, Mohammed accumulated personal wealth and power. Look no further than his large harem of wives and concubines. Narcissistic cult leaders are unsatisfied with wealth alone and desire devoted followers to fuel their "narcissistic supply". When the elders of Qureish offered Mohammed riches, had he accepted their offer that would have cost him his followers. And they could've just come back the next day and forcefully taken it all back, and now that he had revealed to everyone that he's a charlatan he could never rebuild his following. He was playing the long game.

salad wrote:
he was magnanimous as hell on more than one occasion (although he wasn't perfectly magnanimous all the times since he allowed the assassination of those who merely slandered him),


You yourself immediately refuted your own claim. The stories of Mohammed's magnanimous deeds are more than likely fabrications added long after the fact to embellish the legend of his character.

salad wrote:
mandated the treating of slaves with dignity and respect (although I agree he should have outright banned slavery altogether),


There is no such thing as a well treated slave. The only way to treat slaves with dignity and respect is to release them from their bondage.

salad wrote:
he created a very robust social service system that led to a proto-welfare system with the Bay-Al Mal and Zakah,


In the early days of Islam, Mohammed's followers were mostly of the poor and destitute of Mecca. Since the wealthy and powerful had no vested interest in changing the status quo, Mohammed needed to appease the impoverished to build his initial following. Once the power base of Islam was well established, the allocation of Zakat funds shifted more and more toward funding state and military expansion instead.



aghogday
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02 Jun 2021, 10:44 am

salad wrote:

As for Muhammad's virtues there are millions actually; he was an advocate for orphans (although his abrogating adoption was sh***y imo), encouraged the marrying of widows, banned child burial, limited the number of wives a man can have (before Muhammad men could have unlimited number of wives, although allowing unlimited concubines was messed up), banned racism effectively (Islam is arguably the truest anti-racist movement in history), lived a frugal and austere lifestyle even when offered riches, he was magnanimous as hell on more than one occasion (although he wasn't perfectly magnanimous all the times since he allowed the assassination of those who merely slandered him), he created a very robust social service system that led to a proto-welfare system with the Bay-Al Mal and Zakah, mandated the treating of slaves with dignity and respect (although I agree he should have outright banned slavery altogether), and a billion other virtues that are apparent reading his biography.

The man did evil things but his virtues were exemplary in of themselves







"1. Encouraged the marrying of widows

2. Banned child burial (After Birth-Style Abortion)

3. Limited the number of wives a man can have
(Before Muhammad, men could have unlimited
number of wives, although allowing unlimited
concubines was messed up)

4. Banned racism effectively
(Islam is arguably the truest
anti-racist movement in history)

5. Lived a frugal and austere lifestyle
even when offered riches, he was magnanimous
as hell on more than one occasion (although he wasn't
perfectly magnanimous all the times since he allowed
the assassination of those who merely slandered him)

6. He created a very robust social service system that led
to a proto-welfare system with the Bay-Al Mal and Zakah,
mandated the treating of slaves with dignity and respect
(although I agree he should have outright banned slavery altogether),
and a billion other virtues that are apparent reading his biography."

Considering That i've Actually Written the Longest EPiC Long Form Bible Poem at 9.3 MiLLioN

Words in 93 Months, i'd Really Like To See 'That Biography' That Lists A 'Billion Other Virtues'...

That's Six Things, Most of Which Are Piss-Poor Virtues, Overall That Compare to 'The Trump Meme'

And Now You Are Moving From Claiming His Virtues Are A Thousand, to A Million, To A Billion;

HAha, i'm Not Making Fun of You As You Seem to Be Honest In Your Assessments of How He
Failed on Just This Number of 6 'Virtues'; Yet This Makes The Dude Seem Truly Like a Poor

Messenger of

Anything

Worth

Lauding,

OVERALL,

In Civilized Ways Now;

Yes Then, Just 'Another

Politician' WHO Yes, Truly

Worked Life to His Benefit

While Shedding A few Carrots and Sticks

As Despicable Leaders Must Do to Keep their Minions in Tow...

If He Really Did A Thousand, A Million, And A Billion Virtues;

They Aren't Worth Much, if This Is all He Had to Offer in 'The Top 6', You Remember off the 'Top of Your Head'...

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Baby, i've Researched Muhammad With The Best Of Scholars in Real Life Man to Woman too...

And Guess Who

Came Out

On Top;

Neither Man AND OR

Woman; Just Love Now Still For Real...

If Muhammad was 'A Last Prophet'; 'They' Need

About A 'Billion' More to Correct The Deficiencies

That Are Still As Obvious As Lesbians Being Covered

to Their Chest in Saudi Arabia, So They Cannot Cover

Their Eyes And Are Stoned to Death; By the Way HAPPY June

PRIDE MONTH!! !

RAINBOWS

TO YOU

BABY

ALL THE WAY FOR LOVE...

i Congratulate You For Escaping The Faux Overall Faith...

AND TO BE CLEAR AGAIN, Anecdotally Only, Whatever It is the 'Muslim

Faith' Is Doing in Practice in Real Life Now, Overlooking All The

Deficiencies of The Teacher, Is Working Even Better Than

Christianity Among Muslim Women at Least As They

Are Among the Kindest Most Loving People i've

Ever Met; Not So Much the Men; Go Figure;

Toxic Patriarchy

Didn't Come

Close to

Dying with the

Last So-called

Messenger; HeLL ON EartH

Is More Like it For Those Who

Live Amongst Those Who are Not Like Them...

i Mean My God; Sure, He Did Some Good Things

In Hell; Yet Hell Still Exists Where He is From For

Many Still Who Have Little Freedom At All; There Is More than

One Way to Be A Slave; Like An Unmarried Woman Who Cannot Walk in Public Without An Escort of A Man

Who Is of Her Family, For Fear That She May No Longer Be A Virgin For Those Who Still See Women As Cattle

As Products, Tools to Breed;

We Don't Even Have to

Talk About the Bad

Stuff As

That is What

Still Slaves Women

Most on Earth Now; 'We All Know'

From Female Genital Mutilation

That is Not in the Quran Either;

Just Another Interpretation of 'The Man'...

Again it Is Not The Muslim Women As far

As i See That Are The Issue; Just The Antiquated Beliefs of the Religion...

Obviously, Considering The Belief System, The Dudes are Gonna Have A

Harder Time Adapting to The Fact that Women Are The Greater Lovers in Life

And Truly Males Are Slaves too As There is A Whole Lot of Frustration For Unmarried

Men Who Are Only Allowed to Associate With Unmarried Men From Puberty on; Now

That's Prison for

me at least...

Even

Hell;

Not Surprising,

There Are Anger Issues Among 'the Crowd'

As That Applies to 'Incels' Among The 'Western Way' of Life too...

i Don't Worry Much About 'The Extremes' Over Here as 'Protestant Work Ethic Free Porn' Is

So Much More Than A Promise of Carrots of Virgins After Death for All Types of 'Incel Life'...

Lesson Number 101 in Despicable Leader School; Control The Reproductive Freedoms, Then Come to

Master Minions For Rule In Every Way of Selfish Gains In Power, Status, And Other Selfish Material Gains In Life...

Like Making

Special

Rules For

Yourself For

More Wives (Girls) to Purchase For Socio-Political-Economic Gain...

And The List Goes on; Yet i'm not gonna exaggerate
With Numbers i Cannot Readily Prove in Long Lists...

Yes, Muhammad was somewhat of a Success, When
He Lived For Making Life Better For More Folks; Yet Today,
Mostly Failure in Terms of Humane Freedoms... Problem
With Last Pages of Old Antiquated Books.... And Sorely

FLaWeD Dudes Like 'Trump Memes' Who Are Honored More Than They Are Truly Worth...

And To be Clear, If i Lived When Muhammad Did Then, It Is Highly Unlikely i Would Have

Done Nearly As Much to Help Society As He Did; So In Other Words, Who i Am i to Judge...

i Didn't Speak Until 4; i Barely Talked After That; i Do Now, Yet that Wasn't until Age 53

Along WitH A 14,944 Mile Public Dance in 93 Months Since Age 53 too Now Reaching 61;

i Don't

Get my

Hands Dirty;

Yet i Do Blood, Sweat

And Tears And my Feet

Are The Color of The Earth, Soles At Least of my Soul In Dance And Song And Pen is...

Yes, i Have Something Muhammad Never Had; A Pen is Greater Than Any Bloody Sword...

And Other than that There is Controversy Through His Closest Housemate That What

Was Even Written in the Quran Is Authentically The Words of the Dude Muhammad;

'Trademark' Same

Problem With

Jesus, Buddha,

Lao Tzu, Plato,

Socrates, And All the

Other Famous Pen Names

Where Other Ghost Authors Fill in 'the Dude'...

And As Far As The Dudes Who Breathed;

Basically We Have 'Fill In the Blank'...

'Prophet

Without

Pen' is A Misnomer At Best...

Yet all of this is Fascinating

To me at Least as When You (me) Can't

Talk Much Vocally You Develop Special Interests

Until You Can, Will And Never Stop Now Hehe By Dance And

Song, Yes Pen is A Real SWoRD Remaining of Soul Now For Real...

Indeed, Story Still Rules And A Quran Is One of Unlimited Others to Breathe...

Just

Another

'Notch on

A Book Shelf';

Just Another 'Book of Eli'

to Fully iLLuSTRaTE What i'm SPeaKinG

oF SoUL NoW...

i am

No

Copy Right...

Stacks of Papers

Already Written

Do Not Impress me

As much As What i Am Now

What i Write Now Originally For Real...

Every Letter Another Breath of Free Soul Now..:)



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The_Face_of_Boo
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02 Jun 2021, 4:56 pm

dorkseid wrote:
Secular scholars agree that Hadeeth and Sira sources are highly unreliable and that most of them were added on later for various religious or political purposes. Given that, the presence of contradictions is expected.

In my opinion, the biggest problem with religion is that it takes something that is man made and flawed and appoints to it an undeserved level of authority. Not everything in the Bible or Quran is horrible, but the things that are are held in the highest esteem and rigorously protected from any criticism. And we can respect the roles that figures like George Washington or Abraham Lincoln played in history while still understanding that they were flawed human beings and that not everything they did was correct or deserves to be imitated. The problem with figures like Mohammed, Jesus, or Moses is held up as the highest examples of what everyone should strive for. For instance, Muslim societies can never condemn or outlaw child marriage because that would be acknowledging that their prophet did something reprehensible. I do not believe it is fair to judge a man who lived in a very different cultural context than the modern world by modern standards. I do not know to what extent, if any, someone like Mohammed could have understood why marrying a child is wrong. It is when we contextualize this act within the context that millions of people today still hold Mohammed as the highest example of morality that it becomes a problem.


They do condemn child marriage; a lot do actually.
But what’s funny that they come up with stupid justifications, the stupidest I ever heard was « girls in the past and in desert region used to. mature sexually much faster». Some claim that Aisha was 19 and not 9, and the whole thing was a typo. The common populace don’t dig much into religion ans life of Mohammad.

There’s a hadeeth Aisha stating was playing with dolls when Mohammad first visited her father, she doesn’t sound that much mature or even 19.
Those are actors:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p7lPgOEwbYw


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02 Jun 2021, 5:18 pm

Lebanon is one of the most liberal countries in the Islamic world. In fact, I've heard Lebanon doesn't even recognize Islam as an official religion.

When I lived in Libya, nobody talked about the matter of Aishah's age at all. Whenever she brought up in anything, she was always described as she's an adult. I think many people may not even be aware of the controversy at all. This was common with a lot of stuff. We had Quran class in school every year, but the curriculum never included anything about Aishah's age, Jizya, slavery, wife beating, or anything that involved obviously inaccurate information like the voyages of Du Al-Quarnin. The curriculum always presented a very sanitized version of Islam and the Quran. I often wondered why so much of the Quran was never taught in schools, and now I know.

I remember watching a video of a Yemeni official saying that they won't outlaw child marriages in their religion allows them.



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02 Jun 2021, 5:41 pm

dorkseid wrote:
Lebanon is one of the most liberal countries in the Islamic world. In fact, I've heard Lebanon doesn't even recognize Islam as an official religion.

When I lived in Libya, nobody talked about the matter of Aishah's age at all. Whenever she brought up in anything, she was always described as she's an adult. I think many people may not even be aware of the controversy at all. This was common with a lot of stuff. We had Quran class in school every year, but the curriculum never included anything about Aishah's age, Jizya, slavery, wife beating, or anything that involved obviously inaccurate information like the voyages of Du Al-Quarnin. The curriculum always presented a very sanitized version of Islam and the Quran. I often wondered why so much of the Quran was never taught in schools, and now I know.

I remember watching a video of a Yemeni official saying that they won't outlaw child marriages in their religion allows them.



Oh, not anymore and certainly not all of it; we have a group of f*****g retards called Hezbollah turning entire areas to Qom; and their f*****g leftists allies still applaud for them.

Old article but still stands relevant:
https://www.arabnews.com/node/1172516


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