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QFT
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20 Jun 2021, 6:38 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Perhaps one concept to think about for both of us might be “heard” versus “understood.”


Are you trying to say that heard means heard all the facts, while "understood" means understood how they connect and what overall point they are part of? So for example the girl were to say that she went to Italy and she ate such and such healthy food. If I were to focus on healthy food she ate there while she wanted to talk about the things she saw in Italy, then she would feel like I heard her but didn't understand her. Since I misunderstood the significance of what she was trying to say.

So is this what you were trying to convey by "heard vs understood" or were you trying to convey some other points as well?

If that is what you mean it actually makes a lot of sense. Now, on my end I know that I both heard her "and" understood her, since when I go off tangent I know perfectly well that I do it, which implies that I do know what the bigger picture is (which I knowingly push aside). But, now that I think of it, I also realize that the girl wouldn't know it since she is not a mind reader. So, at the very least, I should say something like "I know I am going off tangent, but I am really curious/fascinated about such and such" or something like that; and also indicate that I do care about the other thing she was trying to say. Or, even better: talk about "her" main point first, and then "come back" to the tangent some time later. Since I didn't have enough self control to do either of these things, thats why the girl didn't know that I knew that her main point was anything other than my tangent -- hence she felt "not understood" (regardless of whether I actually understood her or not).

But here is another question. Remember I mentioned two things. One was "how is it possible that I didn't hear her if I dwelled on the details of what she said" and the other was "how is it possible I didn't feel hurt if I spent so much time obsessing about it". Now, the answer to the first one is "heard versus understood". Now, could it be that the answer to the second one be "hurt vs (insert the blank)", as in I am hurt but not in a way that is relevant? If so, can you elaborate on this? If not, what else would this be?

DW_a_mom wrote:
I am thinking that in many ways you may be having conversations where you hear each other, but you don’t actually understand each other. That is much more difficult to resolve.


I agree that it normally goes both ways. She disregards what I am saying because she feels like I disregard what she is saying, and I "act like" I disregard what she is saying because I feel like she disregards what I am saying. I know that if I she were to acknowledge what I am saying I would be a lot more likely to acknowledge what she is saying. So following that logic one could speculate that if I were to acknowledge what she is saying, she would acknowledge what I am saying too. But the word "speculate" is the key word here: I don't actually "know" its the case -- it is possible she is so upset with me that she won't acknowledge what I am saying either way. That is probably why I am not acknowledging her point. And on her end it is the same exact thing: she feels like I am so stuck up that I wouldn't acknowledge her point either way, even if she were to acknowledge mine. So thats why she doesn't bother to acknowledge my point. So it is really very symmetric. I just wish this cycle was somehow broken, and that is what I often push the girl I am arguing with to do, but she wouldn't -- since my discussion about this "cycle" sounds like "yet another excuse" to her.



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20 Jun 2021, 6:47 pm

cyberdad wrote:
The Polish girl, because she is foreign will have to be nice to everyone. However the algorithm also has to take into account looks. If the Polish girl looks like Maria Sharapova then I think she trumps the interview stage and goes straight into a seperate category where she will be in high demand.


Are you trying to suggest that Polish girls are on lower demand than Australian girls? If so, why?



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20 Jun 2021, 11:05 pm

My "main" preference of women mean I have a lot of competition though. I think White European women with pale features and real blond hair are the most beautiful. Also not sounding racist, but White women are the only race that is capable of naturally having those kind of features.



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20 Jun 2021, 11:42 pm

There are so many different types of beautiful ❤️



cyberdad
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21 Jun 2021, 2:09 am

QFT wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
The Polish girl, because she is foreign will have to be nice to everyone. However the algorithm also has to take into account looks. If the Polish girl looks like Maria Sharapova then I think she trumps the interview stage and goes straight into a seperate category where she will be in high demand.


Are you trying to suggest that Polish girls are on lower demand than Australian girls? If so, why?


I mean with Australian or American men. Only a fraction of local men will prefer to date a foreign girl who might not have much in common over an American or Aussie girl. This is another reason that if they are first generation immigrants they would be flexible with a local born Aspie guy as they would also like a guy who can help them assimilate.

Polish girls who are born in America basically fit the "all American" and in the same bucket as all other local girls.



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21 Jun 2021, 3:50 am

QFT wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Perhaps one concept to think about for both of us might be “heard” versus “understood.”


Are you trying to say that heard means heard all the facts, while "understood" means understood how they connect and what overall point they are part of? So for example the girl were to say that she went to Italy and she ate such and such healthy food. If I were to focus on healthy food she ate there while she wanted to talk about the things she saw in Italy, then she would feel like I heard her but didn't understand her. Since I misunderstood the significance of what she was trying to say.

So is this what you were trying to convey by "heard vs understood" or were you trying to convey some other points as well?

If that is what you mean it actually makes a lot of sense. Now, on my end I know that I both heard her "and" understood her, since when I go off tangent I know perfectly well that I do it, which implies that I do know what the bigger picture is (which I knowingly push aside). But, now that I think of it, I also realize that the girl wouldn't know it since she is not a mind reader. So, at the very least, I should say something like "I know I am going off tangent, but I am really curious/fascinated about such and such" or something like that; and also indicate that I do care about the other thing she was trying to say. Or, even better: talk about "her" main point first, and then "come back" to the tangent some time later. Since I didn't have enough self control to do either of these things, thats why the girl didn't know that I knew that her main point was anything other than my tangent -- hence she felt "not understood" (regardless of whether I actually understood her or not).

But here is another question. Remember I mentioned two things. One was "how is it possible that I didn't hear her if I dwelled on the details of what she said" and the other was "how is it possible I didn't feel hurt if I spent so much time obsessing about it". Now, the answer to the first one is "heard versus understood". Now, could it be that the answer to the second one be "hurt vs (insert the blank)", as in I am hurt but not in a way that is relevant? If so, can you elaborate on this? If not, what else would this be?

DW_a_mom wrote:
I am thinking that in many ways you may be having conversations where you hear each other, but you don’t actually understand each other. That is much more difficult to resolve.


I agree that it normally goes both ways. She disregards what I am saying because she feels like I disregard what she is saying, and I "act like" I disregard what she is saying because I feel like she disregards what I am saying. I know that if I she were to acknowledge what I am saying I would be a lot more likely to acknowledge what she is saying. So following that logic one could speculate that if I were to acknowledge what she is saying, she would acknowledge what I am saying too. But the word "speculate" is the key word here: I don't actually "know" its the case -- it is possible she is so upset with me that she won't acknowledge what I am saying either way. That is probably why I am not acknowledging her point. And on her end it is the same exact thing: she feels like I am so stuck up that I wouldn't acknowledge her point either way, even if she were to acknowledge mine. So thats why she doesn't bother to acknowledge my point. So it is really very symmetric. I just wish this cycle was somehow broken, and that is what I often push the girl I am arguing with to do, but she wouldn't -- since my discussion about this "cycle" sounds like "yet another excuse" to her.


I see really good progress in your awareness in this post, and I hope I can find more time soon to give you useful and thoughtful answers.


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QFT
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21 Jun 2021, 12:56 pm

cyberdad wrote:
I mean with Australian or American men. Only a fraction of local men will prefer to date a foreign girl who might not have much in common over an American or Aussie girl.


That makes more sense then.

So what about aspie guys born and raised in Russia who never move anywhere outside Russia and who want to date local girls, in Russia. Since what you just said is not a factor, does it mean they would have just as much difficulties as their American counterparts? Or would you still say that they will have easier time finding a girlfriend?

If you think they will still have easier time finding the girlfriend, then what would be the reason as to why that would be the case?

cyberdad wrote:
This is another reason that if they are first generation immigrants they would be flexible with a local born Aspie guy as they would also like a guy who can help them assimilate.


I am not local born though. I was born in Russia and I came to the US when I was 14. I guess you might say I lived in the US a long time though, if that counts for anything.



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21 Jun 2021, 4:45 pm

QFT wrote:
I am not local born though. I was born in Russia and I came to the US when I was 14. I guess you might say I lived in the US a long time though, if that counts for anything.


You would be perfect for a Russian girl trying to assimilate given you have the best of both worlds.



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21 Jun 2021, 7:27 pm

cyberdad wrote:
QFT wrote:
I am not local born though. I was born in Russia and I came to the US when I was 14. I guess you might say I lived in the US a long time though, if that counts for anything.


You would be perfect for a Russian girl trying to assimilate given you have the best of both worlds.


I agree. Although this leads to the following question: after she is done assimilating, would she stay with me for the rest of my life (like I hope she would) or would she break up with me once my mission is accomplished (which means I would have wasted my time)?

In any case, just to understand sociology of it, let me ask you the following hypothetical question. What would have happened if I were to never immigrate to the US and to just stay in Russia. Do you think my Asperger would have hindered me as much as American aspies are being hindered, or do you think I would have had easier time finding a girlfriend over there? If the latter is the case, why is that?

In other words, do you think American girls that stay in America are pickier than Russian girls that stay in Russia? If so, why? Is there anything about American culture that would make American girls so picky?



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21 Jun 2021, 7:36 pm

QFT wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
QFT wrote:
I am not local born though. I was born in Russia and I came to the US when I was 14. I guess you might say I lived in the US a long time though, if that counts for anything.


You would be perfect for a Russian girl trying to assimilate given you have the best of both worlds.


I agree. Although the question is: after she is done assimilating, would she stay with me for the rest of my life (like I hope she would) or would she break up with me once my mission is accomplished (which means I would have wasted my time)?

In any case, just to understand sociology of it, let me ask you the following hypothetical question. What would have happened if I were to never immigrate to the US and to just stay in Russia. Do you think my Asperger would have hindered me as much as American aspies are being hindered, or do you think I would have had easier time finding a girlfriend over there? If the latter is the case, why is that?

In other words, do you think American girls that stay in America are pickier than Russian girls that stay in Russia? If so, why? Is there anything about American culture that would make American girls so picky?


There is also the intercultural dynamic. I'm not sure if you have seen the movie "A west side story" (released around 1961) but there's a famous theatrical song by Rita Moreno called "I want to live in America" sung by a Puerto Rican woman singing about how great it would be to leave Puerto Rico and live in the US.

I think girls coming from ex-Soviet countries share similar values that the "old world" is backward and holding them back. America is seen like a land of opportunity. So when they get to the US they are grateful.

American girls think/perceive they live in the best country in the world and also know that men all over the world salivate over western women so think they are in demand everywhere which creates that nauseating attitude you see emerge in teenage girls who post on social media.



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21 Jun 2021, 8:03 pm

cyberdad wrote:
QFT wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
QFT wrote:
I am not local born though. I was born in Russia and I came to the US when I was 14. I guess you might say I lived in the US a long time though, if that counts for anything.


You would be perfect for a Russian girl trying to assimilate given you have the best of both worlds.


I agree. Although the question is: after she is done assimilating, would she stay with me for the rest of my life (like I hope she would) or would she break up with me once my mission is accomplished (which means I would have wasted my time)?

In any case, just to understand sociology of it, let me ask you the following hypothetical question. What would have happened if I were to never immigrate to the US and to just stay in Russia. Do you think my Asperger would have hindered me as much as American aspies are being hindered, or do you think I would have had easier time finding a girlfriend over there? If the latter is the case, why is that?

In other words, do you think American girls that stay in America are pickier than Russian girls that stay in Russia? If so, why? Is there anything about American culture that would make American girls so picky?


There is also the intercultural dynamic. I'm not sure if you have seen the movie "A west side story" (released around 1961) but there's a famous theatrical song by Rita Moreno called "I want to live in America" sung by a Puerto Rican woman singing about how great it would be to leave Puerto Rico and live in the US.

I think girls coming from ex-Soviet countries share similar values that the "old world" is backward and holding them back. America is seen like a land of opportunity. So when they get to the US they are grateful.

American girls think/perceive they live in the best country in the world and also know that men all over the world salivate over western women so think they are in demand everywhere which creates that nauseating attitude you see emerge in teenage girls who post on social media.


Thats why I asked about aspie guy living in Russia as well as Russian girls living in Russia. That way I take the desire to immigrate to the US out of the equation. And the only part that is left in the equation is how picky they are within the realm of their own culture, which is what I am wondering about.



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21 Jun 2021, 8:13 pm

QFT wrote:
Thats why I asked about aspie guy living in Russia as well as Russian girls living in Russia. That way I take the desire to immigrate to the US out of the equation. And the only part that is left in the equation is how picky they are within the realm of their own culture, which is what I am wondering about.


I can't comment about that because i) I'm not an aspie and ii) I haven't lived in Russia or speak Russian

But I can give you an illustration of what they are trying to escape from
https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real- ... 91b8ea8c23



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21 Jun 2021, 9:31 pm

Let's see if I can make some progress on addressing specific points.

QFT wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Perhaps one concept to think about for both of us might be “heard” versus “understood.”


Are you trying to say that heard means heard all the facts, while "understood" means understood how they connect and what overall point they are part of? So for example the girl were to say that she went to Italy and she ate such and such healthy food. If I were to focus on healthy food she ate there while she wanted to talk about the things she saw in Italy, then she would feel like I heard her but didn't understand her. Since I misunderstood the significance of what she was trying to say.

So is this what you were trying to convey by "heard vs understood" or were you trying to convey some other points as well?

If that is what you mean it actually makes a lot of sense. Now, on my end I know that I both heard her "and" understood her, since when I go off tangent I know perfectly well that I do it, which implies that I do know what the bigger picture is (which I knowingly push aside). But, now that I think of it, I also realize that the girl wouldn't know it since she is not a mind reader. So, at the very least, I should say something like "I know I am going off tangent, but I am really curious/fascinated about such and such" or something like that; and also indicate that I do care about the other thing she was trying to say. Or, even better: talk about "her" main point first, and then "come back" to the tangent some time later. Since I didn't have enough self control to do either of these things, thats why the girl didn't know that I knew that her main point was anything other than my tangent -- hence she felt "not understood" (regardless of whether I actually understood her or not).


I am glad you recognize the part your lack of self control is playing. This is good.

I suggest alternative 3: before you go off on any tangents, ask: "do you mind if I go off on a tangent, I am really interested in something you said about the food, or do you have more you would like to talk about on the travel first?" Conversation is a two way street, and it isn't enough to simply explain yourself. If the other person has been talking, it usually is rude to simply run off on another direction. What turns most women off is the sense that you are all about you, and don't have any real interest in what they think or want to talk about.

It is also important to realize that the level of care and caution you need with people who don't know you yet is going to be different than with people who know you well. We want you to improve your odds of getting dates and having successful relationships, but not change who you fundamentally are (it isn't sustainable to not be yourself in a long term relationship). You have to be much more cautious with people who don't know yet how your mind works than with people who do. Never assume that anyone knows how your mind works, of course.

Once someone knows you, you can agree to short signals or phrases that would allow the other person to quickly you stop in your tracks if you go off on a tangent at an inappropriate time.

Quote:
But here is another question. Remember I mentioned two things. One was "how is it possible that I didn't hear her if I dwelled on the details of what she said" and the other was "how is it possible I didn't feel hurt if I spent so much time obsessing about it". Now, the answer to the first one is "heard versus understood". Now, could it be that the answer to the second one be "hurt vs (insert the blank)", as in I am hurt but not in a way that is relevant? If so, can you elaborate on this? If not, what else would this be?


I'm not sure I understand the question. I'll have to go back and might edit later.

Quote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I am thinking that in many ways you may be having conversations where you hear each other, but you don’t actually understand each other. That is much more difficult to resolve.


I agree that it normally goes both ways. She disregards what I am saying because she feels like I disregard what she is saying, and I "act like" I disregard what she is saying because I feel like she disregards what I am saying. I know that if I she were to acknowledge what I am saying I would be a lot more likely to acknowledge what she is saying. So following that logic one could speculate that if I were to acknowledge what she is saying, she would acknowledge what I am saying too. But the word "speculate" is the key word here: I don't actually "know" its the case -- it is possible she is so upset with me that she won't acknowledge what I am saying either way. That is probably why I am not acknowledging her point. And on her end it is the same exact thing: she feels like I am so stuck up that I wouldn't acknowledge her point either way, even if she were to acknowledge mine. So thats why she doesn't bother to acknowledge my point. So it is really very symmetric. I just wish this cycle was somehow broken, and that is what I often push the girl I am arguing with to do, but she wouldn't -- since my discussion about this "cycle" sounds like "yet another excuse" to her.


You have a need for answers to questions most people don't think about, and for many answers may not really exist. Thinking about things one has never wanted to think about can be exhausting. A trap is there for both of you: she is exhausted by your questions, and your needs aren't met without the questions.

I think your issue is less that the other person is incapable of seeing the trap, than that you put yourself into "push" mode. You wrote, "and that is what I often push the girl I am arguing with to do." No one likes to be pushed. No one. When you reach the point of pushing, you are no longer being respectful of the other person or their needs or desires. You need to learn gentle ways to nudge, and then leave the conversation while they mull over the nudge.

You ask a lot of people. Your constant questioning can be very needy and immediate. Be more respectful of other people's time and their needs, and they will be more patient and responsive back.


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21 Jun 2021, 9:51 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
I think your issue is less that the other person is incapable of seeing the trap, than that you put yourself into "push" mode. You wrote, "and that is what I often push the girl I am arguing with to do." No one likes to be pushed. No one. When you reach the point of pushing, you are no longer being respectful of the other person or their needs or desires. You need to learn gentle ways to nudge, and then leave the conversation while they mull over the nudge.

You ask a lot of people. Your constant questioning can be very needy and immediate. Be more respectful of other people's time and their needs, and they will be more patient and responsive back.


I think additionally there is no point in trying to use pure deductive reasoning and abstract concepts to emotionally connect with a girl.

But (like it or not) this seems to be the roadmap QFT uses to engage with women. You telling him to go against his nature may get him to rethink his schemas but in the end he will go back to what he knows.

But can a smart, curious Aspie like QFT succeed with women?

It must be my turn to be brutal. No girl in her right mind (NT or Aspie) could spend time with Elon Musk without thinking he's rude, crazy and unpredictable. So why does he have so many female admirers?



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21 Jun 2021, 10:04 pm

QFT wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
She wants to feel heard, not dissected.


I know this, but the question is: how is it possible to dissect what she said without hearing it? Here are the two criticisms she could say:

1) Yes you heard me, but you dissected me too, and the latter kinda ruined it
2) You didn't hear me but dissected me instead

Note that both "1" and "2" would imply that what I did was wrong. But the difference is that "1" is logically possible, while "2" isn't (if 2 were possible, then you would see deaf people dissecting things that were told to them, which obviously doesn't happen).

Now, I know you are going to say "you are picking apart the details right now". Alright, let me tell you this one thing: I am not picking it apart just for the sake of picking it apart. I am picking it apart because I feel emotionally hurt by it. And the thing is that illogical accusation is a lot more hurtful than logical one Thats why it might "sound like" I am fixated on logic, but actually it is driven by the emotional hurt.

Its true that hurt in response to hurt is how things work. If I hurt her then she hurts me back. But there are different kinds of hurt. Its one thing to feel hurt fairly and it is quite another thing to be hurt unfairly. So accusation "1" is hurtful too, but at least it is fair. Accusation "2" is not fair. And the fact that it feels so unfair (emotional aspect) is tied to the fact that it is illogical (logical aspect). This is the underlying reason for my fixation on logic.

And this is something that others aren't getting about me either. There were several people who assumed I was being logical for the sake of exercize in logic, without ever stopping to realize that it was the emotional pain that was driving me. I actually had the following conversation with one of my ex-s who broke up with me mainly for the reason of my dissecting things:

Me: If during all the numerous fights that we had, I were to tell you that the reason behind my dissecting is that I am emotionally hurt, would you have been more patient with me?

My ex: Yes that would have helped

Me: But why didn't you realize this on your own? I mean, why would I spend all those hours arguing over something that "presumably" doesn't affect me emotionally?

My ex: Here you are doing it again

Now, its not JUST that particular ex of mine. That is the assumption that MOST people seem to make. Most people assume I am all about logic and I have no emotions. But they don't bother to ever answer me why would I be arguing so much if presumably I have no emotions.

Assuming that I can argue without having emotions is similar logical fallacy as assuming that I can dissect what I was told without hearing it. And both fallacies are emotionally hurtful in very similar ways.


I feel like I'm in over my head trying to go beyond the "heard" v. "understood" aspect of this but I'll give it a shot. Long run I do feel you need more help than you can expect to get from a message board, however.

It might come down to the pushing I mentioned in the earlier post. It isn't that people who care about you don't want to help you meet your needs, but that (a) they aren't understanding its a need because they can't relate to it and/or (b) they are instinctively pulling away from your pushing. Saying something like "I don't see why that is important" can be more of an exasperated self-defense move to end an uncomfortable conversation than an actual assessment of the topic.

I can see that these questions are a part of who you are, so I want to find a balance that will allow you to engage with people without demanding more from them than they can give. If the questioning is essential to who you are, of course you feel hurt to discover it creates problems with people you care about. My suggestion is to find ways to control it, to allow these conversations to happen on your partner's time, instead of on yours. A lot like how being on a message board allowed me to walk away and choose to come back when I was more ready to think about these topics. I still don't know if I'm addressing them appropriately because, to be honest, trying to give you what I think you want or need stresses my brain. I'm not used to thinking like this.

It makes sense to me that this conflict between how others think and how you think is going to be hurtful to you: it makes you feel alone. Even here in the safe space of Wrong Planet here I am pushing back against the way you instinctively are, even though my intent in doing so is to help you with your own goals. Perhaps it would be helpful, instead of pushing and pushing for the answers you want, to stop and tell the person that you understand your questioning can be uncomfortable, but it is also hard on you to be driven to seek information in a way others aren't comfortable giving. And then, if it is someone willing to continue in conversations with you, negotiate terms for how these conversational differences can be handled. You are going to need to allow the person to choose how to handle your persistent questioning in a way and on a time schedule that is comfortable with them. NO PUSHING.

Is any of that making any sense?


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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 22 Jun 2021, 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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21 Jun 2021, 10:13 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
It makes sense to me that this conflict between how others think and how you think is going to be hurtful to you: it makes you feel alone. Even here in the safe space of Wrong Planet here I am pushing back against the way you instinctively are, even though my intent in doing so is to help you with your own goals. Perhaps it would be helpful, instead of pushing and pushing for the answers you want, to stop and tell the person that you understand your questioning can be uncomfortable, but it is also hard on you to be driven to seek information others aren't uncomfortable giving. And then, if it is someone willing to continue in conversations with you, negotiate terms for how these conversational differences can be handled. You are going to need to allow the person to choose how to handle your persistent questioning in a way and on a time schedule that is comfortable with them. NO PUSHING.

Is any of that making any sense?


With regard to the highlighted part. I don't think anyone is uncomfortable giving answers to QFTs questions. What is exhausting is that however much you deconstruct the dynamics between a man and a woman that it doesn't take into account the emotional bond that must form for the genesis of a blossoming relationship.

I think QFT assumes (like a lot of young males, Aspie or NT) that "if I can just a girl to spend some time with me I will make her fall in love", I know from experience that doesn't work.