I'm running out of time

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Now there is an interesting question.

The man is insane but also brilliant. A mix of amazing and exhausting. What would I do if I had met him when we were both magically the same age, single and I didn't know he was rich? Attractiveness is something that sits on a scale for most people, so for all the extra rude, crazy and unpredictable you'd have to have something extra spectacular on the other side to make those negatives seem less important. And, well, he is a once-in-a generation kind of brilliant.

The balance obviously works for someone, because he has a partner.

I'd probably not be the right person to handle the mix because I have too many of my own inconsistencies.

I do think a smart, curious Aspie can find the right partner, despite the difficulties. But relationships are give and take, so anyone asking a person to weigh the scale and ignore some pretty heavy negatives is going to have to do some work of their own to help the scales balance.

Hm, my phrasing could use improving. I just don't know to what.

I instinctively avoid answering QFTs questions, so in way the interaction can be described as "uncomfortable." So not in the way people commonly use the term, but within the parameters of the literal meaning. I think. Anyway. Getting into those questions takes time I don't naturally want to invest into thinking about angles I personally think are a distraction from the real issues. I would love to magically have the most helpful answers, to be able to offer an efficient means to the end sought, without having to twist my own way of thinking so much. Its hard and uncomfortable to try to get into someone else's thought process when its different from your own. And I am sorry I feel that way, because its hard for him knowing people can't relate to his thought process.

I agree that it will not work for QFT to just get women to spend more time with him. He comes far too much from his own need and his own perspective, and isn't accommodating enough of theirs. But there is no reason he can't learn to change that.

He can't change how his mind works, but he can change how he handles early interactions and what the internal rules will be for a relationship. He can learn to communicate more fully, allow the woman to set boundaries, and then operate within those. All relationships involve give and take. No one gets off with zero adjustment.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 22 Jun 2021, 1:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

I believe one girlfriend said in an interview she wasn't sure if they were even boyfriend/girlfriend based on Elon Musk's behavior; and his current wife said in an interview she had no idea whom she was marrying (an aspie) and that she hates Elon and the kids she has with him and is often about turn around and leave both him and the kids - she struck me as lonely, frustrated and unfulfilled in the marriage.

You might find this an interesting read
https://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/a5 ... rter-wife/

Agreed!

I realize that both me asking a lot of questions and me taking things personally are big parts of the conflicts that I have, but it changes from situation to situation the way they couple to each other.

For example, one thing I often do is ask the girl I am dating at a time as to why my ex-s did certain things. Even though I know that talking about ex-s is often detrimental to a relationship, its a type of a gamble and I do it anyway. Now, if the girl were to say "I don't want to talk about your ex-s", I won't take it personally since I know exactly why she wouldn't want to talk about it. But if, instead, she says "I don't think we should date cause you talk about ex-s" then I would. Now, in the latter scenario, I will also have a question, but a very different kind. So the "new" question would be: "why wouldn't you date me if I promise that I won't talk about ex-s". Her refusal to answer the second question is a lot more personal than her refusal to answer the first one. Don't get me wrong though. If she doesn't answer me questions about ex-s I have "personal hurt" too, *but* it won't be personal hurt at her, it would be personal hurt at my ex-s. But if she breaks up with me over it, then I would develop personal hurt at her.

Or even lets talk about message boards. So when you said you couldn't answer my questions because it is exhausting, I didn't take it personally. But then, in a Social Anxiety message board, when they were warning new members not to answer my questions because I will never learn, then yes I did. Now, when I told "you" about the hurt feelings, I didn't mean "hurt feelings between me and you", I meant "hurt feelings between me and my ex's" (in order to tell you I am not just dwelling in details for the sake of details). But, in a social anxiety board, it "started off" with hurt feelings between me and the ex-s, but then it "became" about hurt feelings between me and the members of that board.

So I guess maybe one thing I should learn is when I am hurt at one front, to deal with it in such a way that it won't create a whole new hurt at a different front.

In any case, what probably hurts even more is the fact that they wouldn't listen to my explanation rather than just not answer my questions. In particular, if I mess up, I want to explain my behavior so that they give me another chance. But if they treat it as just an excuse and have their mind made up, then it hurts. And again, I am not saying that is true in every context, rather its only true in some (namely when I feel the need to defend myself). For example, if people on this board don't read my explanations, that doesn't hurt because said explanations don't pertain to the interaction between me and them, but rather to some third parties. But if a girl with whom I had a conflict won't listen to my explanation then yes it hurts, since the whole purpose of that explanation is to resolve the conflict with her and she just wont listen.

And this is where the questions come from. If the girl is so intent to ignore my explanations, then I wish she would at least answer why she wouldn't listen. Hence the questioning. But if she won't answer that, and just walks away, then my next best option is to ask that question to other girls I meet in the future, which is why I do that. But I would have much rather she were to just hear me out and resolve the conflict and then I won't have to obsess about it.

By the way, one thing to my credit is that I "do" follow "do onto others" in this particular aspect. I want to explain myself to the girl AND I want the girl to explain herself to me. It is just that she isn't willing to put up with that kind of interaction.

Last edited by QFT on 22 Jun 2021, 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I know that relationships require emotional bond. But that doesn't stop me from asking what I do because

a) If emotional bond forms with other people, why not with me?

b) In the rare occasions that it does form with me, what is it that ruins it?

That reminds me of a certain long distance girl 2 years ago who, after a big fight, decided to fly to where I am sooner than she would have otherwise in order to find out "whether or not it is wroth it". In other words, she wanted to see if her attraction to me would outweigh the personality conflict. But the very fact that this was her reason of flying made me not like the idea, so as a result she didn't fly, but then broke up with me as well. Here is the thread describing it: viewtopic.php?t=377751

The other example is a girl 3 years ago whom I mentioned in this thread viewtopic.php?t=397902 So when I talked to her a year after the breakup, she first told me she broke up with me because I won't let go of things. But then when I pushed the issue she told me something else: namely that she knew things won't work out when I was wondering if my roommate would confuse her with a man and decide I am gay. But that happened three months before the break up. So my theory is that that part killed the attraction, and as a result of lack of attraction she wasn't as willing to put up with my constantly dissecting things.

One suggestion I can make is to not focus on yourself with the girl. Show more of an interest in her but (and this is the tricky part) spend a minimal time talking/asking questions and more time listening to her (enough to keep her interested but not too much so that she thinks you are bored).

This is maybe the best strategy to maintain an emotional bond, But it sounds like this will test your patience.

All this makes sense to me and should be, by extension, something a women you are dating can learn about you.

But understand that in moments of anger and frustration people mess up, including people who love us, and can weaponize the things they know hurt us. In that situation there is no answer as to why beyond "I was angry and/or frustrated and in that moment I wanted to hurt you, so I did." It is best to simply know that is the answer coming and not try to push it out of them; it is an awful thing to have to verbalize to the person you love but just hurt. Instead, simply say something like, "that hurt me," and let them decide their next steps.

Also, instead of "taking a gamble" and talking about your ex, ASK your date if she is willing at this point in time to discuss something about your ex you've been trying to figure out. Before diving in, show some respect for her feelings and her needs. That simple signal can mean a lot.



You need to understand that often not wanting to listen says more about the person you are talking to than you, and while I may have no problem on a message board telling you, it can be painful for someone who is interested in you romantically; they are trying to put their best foot forward, and you are kind of asking them to kick the wall with it and bruise their own foot. Do you really think a woman who likes you wants to say something like "it bores me" or "I don't have the mental bandwidth right now" or ??? When someone says now is not the time, take their word. DROP IT. If someone cares about you, they will hold onto the question and MIGHT reopen the conversation when they are in a better mental space.

You also need to understand that most people don't have the desire to delve as deep as you, although I do hope you someday meet that unique person out there who might. So while you see it as reciprocal, it really is all about you, simply because your needs and desires on the issue don't align with most of society.

On break ups, you need to understand that once someone decides to break up, no amount of explaining can restore their former feelings. I know of no one who wants to listen to an explanation from the person they are trying to break up with. At the point of break up, the fissure is usually beyond a misunderstanding, and has reached a certainty that this is a pairing not meant to be. Once people reach that certainty, they usually want to move on and seek new relationships with new people who could be their person, and to stop dwelling on the past.

Most people spend a lot of time thinking about how they intend to phrase a break up. They usually want to do so without as little hurt to you as possible, and select their explanations accordingly. The explanations may or may not be the full or main reason, but it is the one they have decided it will be best to use. When you fail to accept it, you are putting them into a very uncomfortable and painful place where they could end up saying something that will hurt you more deeply than the breakup, that they may not even mean. They already decided how they wanted to handle it and what message they wanted to leave you with. Even if it is a crappy one, there is NOTHING to be gained by seeking a "better" or more informative one. They may want to keep those feelings private because the reasons say more about them than about you. They may feel that the real reasons would be unproductive for you to hear. They may simply not have the emotional bandwidth to dissect it. It could be any of millions of reasons. But breaking up isn't much easier on the person initiating it and you MUST respect that they are coming from an emotional place, and NOT PUSH.

Dang, I KNOW it is hard to never get an answer to a question that burns at you. But the best answer to accept in your mind is as simple as "it was not meant to be," because THAT is the decision the other person has made, and nothing can be meant to be unless both people believe it IS meant to be.

Even when a decision seems to be spur of the moment, it is likely to have been building for a long time, sometimes without the partner who finally verbalizes it even realizing they were feeling that way.

No future girlfriend, and no person on any message board, can accurately get into the mind of another person. It's all speculation, and by being so, how far any conversation can go is naturally extremely limited. You may have friends or even girlfriends who are willing, but let such conversations be initiated by them on their terms. It may not be enough for you, but the healthiest opening is simply to say "I have so many questions about why my last girlfriend broke up with me and I wish someone could help me find a logical answer that might ease my mind." That is honest, and gives the opening. My warning, however, is that it ALSO gives the person knowledge of how obsessive you can be, and even knowing that can be a deal breaker for some people. Still, if someone is serious about pursuing a relationship with you, they shouldn't run away from such a statement. But note that caveat: if someone is serious. You can't throw that out during early dates.

A therapist could teach you techniques for how to deal with situations and questions that cannot be resolved. You can't ask nonprofessionals to delve into territory they aren't trained for. I can tell you what I see as the problem, I can tell you things I see you do that I do not think you should do, but I cannot help you acquire the skills you need to move from point B to point C (I have enough ego to believe we might be helping you get from A to B, at least).

A good way for you to show us that our time investment with you is paying off is for you to indicate you will look into finding a professional who can help you with the issues we've identified.

You write answers that show you do understand quite a lot about what your problem is, and the next step is how to fix something you admit you lack self-control over. We can't do that, but I truly believe it can be done. I believe in you QFT.

Plus, can I say, clearly women are attracted to you or you wouldn't have so many stories and examples. That alone puts you ahead of some of the men I've talked with. Don't waste it: do the work. Get the help.

Dating a grandma? Ain't no law that says you can't date a woman who's a decade younger than you.

you are not the first man or woman this happened to. there are 'left over women' supposedly in China who are like approaching 40 and never married - those docs always make me feel better

I have the moments of anger too. But the difference between me and the girls is that I actually say it afterwords, but the girls don't. Now, if the girls never say it, how do I know that was "just" that moment as opposed to their firm opinion? If they were to say it was one or the other, I would believe them in either case. But since they don't say it, I have no other way of knowing besides asking them repetitive questions until they say it.



That would be counter-productive since it wouldn't stop them from "thinking" it, but it would stop them from verbalizing their thoughts. Hence I would have no way of challenging their negative thoughts if they won't be verbalized.



Okay I will try to do it and see what happens. Not just with ex but with going off tangents in general. Normally I just go off tangent. But I could practice saying "is it okay if I go off that tangent".

Maybe part of why I don't do it is that it makes it look more deliberate, and I want to be able to have an excuse such as "oh I just asked it in a spur of the moment" (and then mentally blame the resulting two hour discussion on that spur of the moment that happened at the start, although nobody besides me would). But maybe I should see how "delibererate" feels like. Who knows maybe it will actually help. Never know till I try.



I found at least four unique such people within past several years. Maybe there was a fifth one, if I try to recall. In any case, what happened with all four of them is that, in response to my very long email, they wrote much longer email. And then I was like "wow, they are a great match". But what happened at some point is that I was the one who couldn't keep up with this and then they ended it over it.

In case of 2 of them, I actually didn't write them for few months as I kept sincerely thinking I would get back to it few days later. So I can't blame them for it. But in case of 2 other ones, I DID in fact write them back few days later. But they got upset its taken few days and then they took it out by ALSO getting upset that I missed some of the details in their emails. What is interesting is that they acted as if everyone else can keep up with their details BUT me. And I was like what are you talking about? I thought other people are a lot LESS detailed than me. If I put everyone on the scale of being detailed oriented, then others are like 2, I am like 5 and you are like 8, so why are you, an 8, think you have more in common with a 2 than with a 5? But they weren't getting it.

I guess I can answer my question in the following way. The one thing that the 2-s and the 8-s both agree on is that I focus on myself a lot more than on other people. When I am being "too detailed" (in my interaction with the 2-s) it is usually about me. When I am "not being detailed enough" (in my interaction with the 8-s) it is usually my neglecting things they said about themselves.

But still, not so fast. If its bad that I neglect some really detailed thing about 8-s saying about themselves, then shouldn't others similarly pay attention to all the details I say about me? Plus at least some of the 8-s also got upset I didn't answer them questions about me (I remember one of them used the word Q-s for questions). Given that I normally love talking about myself, I think it should be obvious that the only reason I didn't do it in this case is because the emails were plain way too long and I didn't have time.

Nevertheless, I can still sort of bring it under the same umbrella. In particular, their accusation is that I pay attention to myself (whether it be over-analyzing myself OR asking them questions they aren't comfortable answering) and not to other people (whether it be them talking about themselves OR asking Qs about me). That makes more sense since that is something all sides would agree upon. But still, in this very specific situation it was the sheer length of the emails, but the girls weren't getting it.

The other explanation I am thinking of is that, even though their email response might have been twice longer than mine, I was the one who started with long emails (if my emails weren't super long it would have never occurred to them to write a novel just out of the blue). So they might have felt like I "made them" spend all this time writing me and then I "didn't bother" to respond, which made them feel like they spent all this time "for nothing". So if we were to just write short emails back and forth (like all the rest of the girls would have preferred) they would have been just fine since their short emails would match mine. From this perspective those four girls would also be examples of "why I should make my emails shorter" except that the reason is different.

Be it as it may, you can still say that this whole discussion is an "irrelevant detail" because if several dozen girls are saying my emails are too long, and just 4 (out of the space of ten years) are saying otherwise, then I should just go with what several dozen are saying and forget about the 4 (unless by some miracle I run into the other one similar to them). But what is interesting is that these 4 girls were acting like everyone else is like them and I am the abnormal one. Surely they had many dozen friends. So should I assume all of their several dozen friends that they had were as detail oriented as they were? But then why were they all different from the several dozen people I talked to? Were they from another planet or what?

The other thing that makes me think that those 4 girls might not be that rare after all is that I heard that it is normally the guys that complain that the girl talks too much, not the other way around. Now it is possible that typical guy is a 1, the typical girl is a 3, I am 5, and the above four girls are the 8s. But that is one theory. And maybe there is another theory that girls sort of jump between 3 and 8 depending on the circumstance, and my behavior usually triggers the 3-mode (except for those four cases) while other guys might happen to trigger the 8-mode more often. What do you think?



Here is how it can be about them. If I hurt them and they hurt me back, then we are both hurt, not just one of us. Now, if my behavior hurt them, then wouldn't my explanation make them hurt less? In fact, I overheard a lot how girls complain to their friends about how others hurt them (be it their other friends or their partners). So my question is: why not go directly to the source? I actually asked that question to one of the girls (probably pertaining other girls) and she said "why would they, if you were the one who hurt them". And I was like "duh, since I was the one who hurt them that is precisely why I would be the best one to undo that hurt". But the girl didn't seem to get this point.



But what if their decision to break up with me was a result of miscommunication? It happened to me plenty of times when it was something along the following lines. I did/say A, which caused the girl to think I am B, and to her B is not something she is looking for in a partner so she decided it won't work. But actually I know I am not B. Rather I am C. And C explains A just as much as B would. So if I were to tell her "I am not B, I am C" then her whole reason that it won't work would go out the window.

Now one objection I hear about it is that "its not about me its about her, and I shouldn't be telling her what she prefers". Well, I am not telling her what she prefers. I never once tried to convince her that she should be fine with B. Rather I was trying to convince her that I am not B. See the difference? In other words, her preference is that she won't date B. I never question that preference of her. I am just trying to exclude myself from the B category. And who would know me better than I do? Thats why I wish she could hear out my side of the story.



Well, on my end, it often DOES feel like a big misunderstanding. Thats why I am so persistent.



That is quite surprising to hear. Because the impression they made was that they didn't have time to think, since they didn't have time to hear out my side of the story.

But now that you told me they do have time to think, the obvious question is: why don't they have half that time to hear me out then?



But if it is a consensus that everyone does this, then what would be even a point of writing those explanations? She knows that the guy would know it is basically made up lie, so what would be a point?

Thats why I keep thinking maybe they do hold at least a significant part of the truth, even if presented selectively?



Actually this happened a few times. I remember how I was thinking of a few possibilities of why they were turned off, and when I actually got them to say it, it was none of those few but rather something else that I found far more surprising and shocking. I never thought of their actual answer for the simple fact that I am so far away from doing something like that that it would never cross my mind that anyone would think that, until they did. And, undoubtedly, it hurt me a lot more than anything else I was thinking of would have.

But this just more to my point. Since such HUGE miscommunications do happen, I just wish I had a chance to correct them.



If they said it then they meant it. They were just too polite to say it until I pushed.



I was assuming that, regardless of whom it is "actually" about, they "think" it is about me. Its a human nature to blame the other person (especially if said other person has Asperger). The line "its not you its me" is just a polite excuse.



It could be productive if it happens that the "real reason" is a misperception on her part that was a result of my miscommunicating something. Then I can just clarify what I meant. Or even if the real reason does apply to me, what if it is something I can change?



I met them on dating sites. The vast majority of women on dating sites don't respond to my messages. But after several months of non-response someone finally would. Now all those women I talked about accummulated over several years. So it might look like a lot of I just talked about those ones, but those are really just a small fraction of women; the majority never bother to respond on the first place.

Well back in the old days kids were getting married in their teens and starting families. They weren't able to have any fun so to speak. So maybe you could look at it like that and try to get into that mindset that it's normal for you, maybe?

I'm no expert on the old days but I get the impression that back in those days people were more able to have fun after they'd married and had kids. Nowadays everything is focused on youth culture. It's like if you're more than 25 you're invisible.

Look at I Love Lucy. After Little Ricky was born Lucy and Ricky continued to lead active social lives. In some ways I feel like the modern parent has greater demands placed on them. Like nowadays you're expected to be perfect in parenting.

From what I've heard in the old days parents really put themselves first and kids were expected to be grateful just to have a roof over their heads. Children were expected to be seen and not heard and above all not cause any inconvenience to their parents professional or social lives.

Nowadays parents are expected to put their kids first, second and third and just not have a social life outside of going to Wiggles concerts.

Well, QFT, I think you need your own, specially tailored hand book. PLEASE start working with a paid professional instead of hoping for magic answers from a message board. But, I'll do my best this time.

You assume you have a right and need to know. That isn't always the case. You get the answer when and if the other person chooses to give it. Do NOT push with repetitive questions trying to force it out of them.



You don't have the right to control and challenge someone else's negative thoughts, or to be sure if they exist. When people choose to keep a thought private, they do so for a reason. What goes on in my head is mine, just mine, and any person who feels they have a right to it will not last in my life; it's too much. Respect that line of privacy. You do not need to know if they really do or do not think the hurtful thing. Assume they don't; you will be happier that way.



There is a difference between deliberate, and showing you have the ability to exercise a little self-control. Adults can and should have self-control. Your desire for the tangent was spur of the moment, but your acknowledging that it is a tangent shows the ability to control your impulses and honor the flow of the existing conversation.



My guess is that you might have solved the situation by replying immediately with something along the lines of "I really enjoyed receiving your email and will respond when I've had time to finish my reply."

No one likes to be ignored, or to feel their effort has been wasted. But I totally understand that replying the way you want to will take time. So touch base regularly in the interim.

Remember, also, that the average person is much more comfortable talking (or writing) than listening (or reading). So being willing to write books is not necessarily the same as being willing to listen to books. Unfortunately that balance is something most people feel out as they go (which I realize is totally unhelpful to someone with ASD; I just don't know how to verbalize the signs to look for).



You incorrectly assume that you could somehow explain your way out of having hurt them. You can't. If you try, you will make it worse. That is why no one goes back to the person who hurt them for help resolving the hurt.

Instead, they will decide what they need from you in the future and will tell you what they believe you need to hear.

Your role is to take that information in and NOT CHALLENGE it. Their feelings are their feelings; this is NOT something up for debate or discussion.



It isn't time, it's about their internal emotional health. They will not change their minds, and do not want an explanation. Even if the straw that broke the camel's back was a miscommunication, you will not change the end result no matter how much you explain. Every moment you try to drag it out and refuse to accept the inevitable takes a huge emotional toll on the other person. You are, again, trying to gain access to their internal thoughts which you have no right to. Each push solidifies their decision and deepens the divide, so there is absolutely nothing to gain. You MUST LET GO.

I accept that you may never truly understand this. You should also accept that you may never truly understand it. I am asking you to ACCEPT that there is NOTHING you can or should do.



They will usually do their best not to lie, but they will probably not tell you the full truth. But, again, you don't have a right to their actual thoughts beyond what they have chosen to share.

Again, you need to ACCEPT this is the way it is.



You need to ACCEPT that you will never know, and don't have the right to know.

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I think that is true for most people, that only a small fraction of all people are actual possibilities.