4 mass shootings in 6 hours leave 39 wounded, 5 dead

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funeralxempire
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16 Jun 2021, 8:19 am

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Not sending police do deal with some sorts of calls doesn't mean they would cease to be available to respond to violent crime.

Violent crime will increase with a reduced police presence. Not that I'm trying to support police brutality and corruption, just that if criminals know there's a political push to have even less police around, they're more emboldened to commit even more brazen crimes...including gun violence.


That sounds like a reasonable belief, but can you substantiate it?


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Daddy63
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16 Jun 2021, 8:22 am

funeralxempire wrote:
You're picking two unrelated things and demanding to know how they will solve a problem they're not intended to.

Gun regulations aren't intended to reduce the number of guns that currently exist on the streets, they're designed to stop the inventory from growing.

Not sending police do deal with some sorts of calls doesn't mean they would cease to be available to respond to violent crime.


How is blaming, demeaning and defunding the police who are there to protect and serve in these violent, segregated US neighborhoods going to do anything but increase violent crime and hate crime?



funeralxempire
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16 Jun 2021, 8:26 am

Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
You're picking two unrelated things and demanding to know how they will solve a problem they're not intended to.

Gun regulations aren't intended to reduce the number of guns that currently exist on the streets, they're designed to stop the inventory from growing.

Not sending police do deal with some sorts of calls doesn't mean they would cease to be available to respond to violent crime.


How is blaming, demeaning and defunding the police who are there to protect and serve in these violent, segregated US neighborhoods going to do anything but increase violent crime and hate crime?


How exactly is ignoring problems that exist within policing likely to improve anything?

Reducing the work load on police and allowing them to focus on what they're trained for means less mistakes and less resentment towards the police.

Blaming police for their own failures is part of taking responsibility which is required to rebuild trust. Who should be blamed when police behave recklessly or criminally?


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"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made... and they won't even admit the knife is there." Malcolm X
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Daddy63
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16 Jun 2021, 8:36 am

funeralxempire wrote:

How exactly is ignoring problems that exist within policing likely to improve anything?

Reducing the work load on police and allowing them to focus on what they're trained for means less mistakes and less resentment towards the police.

Blaming police for their own failures is part of taking responsibility which is required to rebuild trust. Who should be blamed when police behave recklessly or criminally?


I'm suggesting nothing of the sort. Of course policing can be improved.

The big issue is segregation of neighborhoods and schools and the resulting societal issues including rampant, violent crime. When we continuously blame the police instead of fixing the root causes, nothing gets better.

Improvements in policing are important but will have no significant impact on these societal issues related to segregation and education.



funeralxempire
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16 Jun 2021, 8:54 am

Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

How exactly is ignoring problems that exist within policing likely to improve anything?

Reducing the work load on police and allowing them to focus on what they're trained for means less mistakes and less resentment towards the police.

Blaming police for their own failures is part of taking responsibility which is required to rebuild trust. Who should be blamed when police behave recklessly or criminally?


I'm suggesting nothing of the sort. Of course policing can be improved.

The big issue is segregation of neighborhoods and schools and the resulting societal issues including rampant, violent crime. When we continuously blame the police instead of fixing the root causes, nothing gets better.

Improvements in policing are important but will have no significant impact on these societal issues related to segregation and education.



Attitudes that exist within policing are one of the issues that contributes to these outcomes. It isn't a problem with only one root cause.


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"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made... and they won't even admit the knife is there." Malcolm X
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


Daddy63
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16 Jun 2021, 9:54 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Attitudes that exist within policing are one of the issues that contributes to these outcomes. It isn't a problem with only one root cause.


We need to stop blaming the police. The segregated disaster that is the reality in most major cities in the US wasn't created by the police. We ask them to go in a deal with the violent mess that others created and for the most part they do an admirable job. Leaders need to address and fix the segregation and education issues in these communities which is the real root cause.

I do agree that the police can do better and we should expect that. At the same time they deserve our deepest respect and appreciation.



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16 Jun 2021, 10:06 am

Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Attitudes that exist within policing are one of the issues that contributes to these outcomes. It isn't a problem with only one root cause.


We need to stop blaming the police. The segregated disaster that is the reality in most major cities in the US wasn't created by the police. We ask them to go in a deal with the violent mess that others created and for the most part they do an admirable job. Leaders need to address and fix the segregation and education issues in these communities which is the real root cause.

I do agree that the police can do better and we should expect that. At the same time they deserve our deepest respect and appreciation.


Perhaps most of the blame shouldn't fall on bottom level boots-on-the-ground police members, but most certainly their leadership/trainers and anyone responsible for the culture of police forces.

US police were founded to round up runaway slaves and their animosity towards BIPOC peoples has continued for ~400 years just the same as the RCMP were formed to battle Indigenous peoples in Canada and the rift continues here.

These systemic faults are not the problem of the communities receiving the brunt of excessive force by police, nor are they entirely the fault of individual police officers. They're systemic problems that need to be addressed by the Top leadership of these organizations and then worked through by all members and stakeholders from the very top to very bottom, and then continually improved into perpetuity.


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funeralxempire
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16 Jun 2021, 10:08 am

Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Attitudes that exist within policing are one of the issues that contributes to these outcomes. It isn't a problem with only one root cause.


We need to stop blaming the police. The segregated disaster that is the reality in most major cities in the US wasn't created by the police. We ask them to go in a deal with the violent mess that others created and for the most part they do an admirable job. Leaders need to address and fix the segregation and education issues in these communities which is the real root cause.

I do agree that the police can do better and we should expect that. At the same time they deserve our deepest respect and appreciation.


They didn't create it, they were created to perpetuate the problem and struggle with reforming. That's where the resentment comes from. Reform is critical to creating trust where it has never existed, establishing trust will build that respect and appreciation.

A very similar issue exists here, the RCMP were created as an occupying force and as a result receive distrust from the communities they've treated in that manner. It's not on those communities to unilaterally forgive that police force for their actions if no attempt at reconciliation has ever been made by that police force.

Dismissing the concerns that underlay hostility towards police won't ever result in positive change and usually just results in police feeling entitled to behave more harshly and make the problem worse. Pivoting to blame just the Democrats for these issues just appears like partisan hackery.


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"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made... and they won't even admit the knife is there." Malcolm X
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


Daddy63
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16 Jun 2021, 10:19 am

goldfish21 wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Attitudes that exist within policing are one of the issues that contributes to these outcomes. It isn't a problem with only one root cause.


We need to stop blaming the police. The segregated disaster that is the reality in most major cities in the US wasn't created by the police. We ask them to go in a deal with the violent mess that others created and for the most part they do an admirable job. Leaders need to address and fix the segregation and education issues in these communities which is the real root cause.

I do agree that the police can do better and we should expect that. At the same time they deserve our deepest respect and appreciation.


Perhaps most of the blame shouldn't fall on bottom level boots-on-the-ground police members, but most certainly their leadership/trainers and anyone responsible for the culture of police forces.

US police were founded to round up runaway slaves and their animosity towards BIPOC peoples has continued for ~400 years just the same as the RCMP were formed to battle Indigenous peoples in Canada and the rift continues here.

These systemic faults are not the problem of the communities receiving the brunt of excessive force by police, nor are they entirely the fault of individual police officers. They're systemic problems that need to be addressed by the Top leadership of these organizations and then worked through by all members and stakeholders from the very top to very bottom, and then continually improved into perpetuity.


Pure political propaganda fabricated to smear law enforcement. This kind of propaganda is the problem, not the police.



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16 Jun 2021, 10:23 am

funeralxempire wrote:
They didn't create it, they were created to perpetuate the problem and struggle with reforming. That's where the resentment comes from. Reform is critical to creating trust where it has never existed, establishing trust will build that respect and appreciation.

A very similar issue exists here, the RCMP were created as an occupying force and as a result receive distrust from the communities they've treated in that manner. It's not on those communities to unilaterally forgive that police force for their actions if no attempt at reconciliation has ever been made by that police force.

Dismissing the concerns that underlay hostility towards police won't ever result in positive change and usually just results in police feeling entitled to behave more harshly and make the problem worse. Pivoting to blame just the Democrats for these issues just appears like partisan hackery.


The people who created the system of segregation are the same that protect it today. They are also the political leaders of these segregated communities today. Even worse they call anyone who is critical of their system of segregated communities and education and push for change, improvement and better options 'racists' and that includes the police.



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16 Jun 2021, 10:51 am

Daddy63 wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Attitudes that exist within policing are one of the issues that contributes to these outcomes. It isn't a problem with only one root cause.


We need to stop blaming the police. The segregated disaster that is the reality in most major cities in the US wasn't created by the police. We ask them to go in a deal with the violent mess that others created and for the most part they do an admirable job. Leaders need to address and fix the segregation and education issues in these communities which is the real root cause.

I do agree that the police can do better and we should expect that. At the same time they deserve our deepest respect and appreciation.


Perhaps most of the blame shouldn't fall on bottom level boots-on-the-ground police members, but most certainly their leadership/trainers and anyone responsible for the culture of police forces.

US police were founded to round up runaway slaves and their animosity towards BIPOC peoples has continued for ~400 years just the same as the RCMP were formed to battle Indigenous peoples in Canada and the rift continues here.

These systemic faults are not the problem of the communities receiving the brunt of excessive force by police, nor are they entirely the fault of individual police officers. They're systemic problems that need to be addressed by the Top leadership of these organizations and then worked through by all members and stakeholders from the very top to very bottom, and then continually improved into perpetuity.


Pure political propaganda fabricated to smear law enforcement. This kind of propaganda is the problem, not the police.


Dismissing history you don't like as propaganda won't make it untrue. This seems to be why some political blocs are so hostile to teaching history that expands beyond the perspectives they approve of.

Daddy63 wrote:
The people who created the system of segregation are the same that protect it today. They are also the political leaders of these segregated communities today. Even worse they call anyone who is critical of their system of segregated communities and education and push for change, improvement and better options 'racists' and that includes the police.


This sounds like a poor attempt at blaming civil rights activists for systemic and institutional racism. :?


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"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made... and they won't even admit the knife is there." Malcolm X
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


Daddy63
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16 Jun 2021, 12:13 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Pure political propaganda fabricated to smear law enforcement. This kind of propaganda is the problem, not the police.

Dismissing history you don't like as propaganda won't make it untrue. This seems to be why some political blocs are so hostile to teaching history that expands beyond the perspectives they approve of.



This sounds like a poor attempt at blaming civil rights activists for systemic and institutional racism. :?


Let's start with real history and keep it simple. The propaganda must stop.

The South lost the US Civil War. Slave patrols became police in a few States in the South. Jim Crow laws and that regional structure were destroyed long ago. Cities like New York, Philadelphia and Boston had police way before any of this. This "US police were founded to round up runaway slaves" nonsense is a fabricated lie.


Are people who defend the current system of segregated US education truly civil rights activists? The answer to that is pretty obvious. There are numerous schools across the US where the student body is all black and no child is proficient in basic subjects. People who defend it are not civil rights activists.



Last edited by Daddy63 on 16 Jun 2021, 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

goldfish21
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16 Jun 2021, 12:24 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Attitudes that exist within policing are one of the issues that contributes to these outcomes. It isn't a problem with only one root cause.


We need to stop blaming the police. The segregated disaster that is the reality in most major cities in the US wasn't created by the police. We ask them to go in a deal with the violent mess that others created and for the most part they do an admirable job. Leaders need to address and fix the segregation and education issues in these communities which is the real root cause.

I do agree that the police can do better and we should expect that. At the same time they deserve our deepest respect and appreciation.


Perhaps most of the blame shouldn't fall on bottom level boots-on-the-ground police members, but most certainly their leadership/trainers and anyone responsible for the culture of police forces.

US police were founded to round up runaway slaves and their animosity towards BIPOC peoples has continued for ~400 years just the same as the RCMP were formed to battle Indigenous peoples in Canada and the rift continues here.

These systemic faults are not the problem of the communities receiving the brunt of excessive force by police, nor are they entirely the fault of individual police officers. They're systemic problems that need to be addressed by the Top leadership of these organizations and then worked through by all members and stakeholders from the very top to very bottom, and then continually improved into perpetuity.


Pure political propaganda fabricated to smear law enforcement. This kind of propaganda is the problem, not the police.


Dismissing history you don't like as propaganda won't make it untrue. This seems to be why some political blocs are so hostile to teaching history that expands beyond the perspectives they approve of.

Daddy63 wrote:
The people who created the system of segregation are the same that protect it today. They are also the political leaders of these segregated communities today. Even worse they call anyone who is critical of their system of segregated communities and education and push for change, improvement and better options 'racists' and that includes the police.


This sounds like a poor attempt at blaming civil rights activists for systemic and institutional racism. :?


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funeralxempire
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16 Jun 2021, 12:43 pm

Daddy63 wrote:
There are numerous schools across the US where the student body is all black and no child is proficient in basic subjects. People who defend it are not civil rights activists.


You make this argument without ever actually connecting the accusation to real people. Who are the people openly defending and championing that?

Distracting by bringing up charter schools as though that's the only solution to that problem misses the point, so please refrain.


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"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made... and they won't even admit the knife is there." Malcolm X
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う


Daddy63
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16 Jun 2021, 1:32 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
You make this argument without ever actually connecting the accusation to real people. Who are the people openly defending and championing that?

Distracting by bringing up charter schools as though that's the only solution to that problem misses the point, so please refrain.


We can start with the US President who openly pushed for segregation in the Senate and did nothing legislatively to block the results of court decisions that undid Brown v Board of Ed and allowed gerrymandering and segregation of school districts. Again, the result today is that we have many 100% black schools with zero kids proficient in math and reading. We have entire school districts with tens of thousands of students that are 95%+ black and test proficiencies near zero. It's not something made up.

You're the one bringing up charter schools as a distraction, not me. That's always the distraction technique used by those defending the current segregation model and have no better solution. (I don't mean to suggest you support the current US model of segregation).

The President has no solution because he prefers segregation. If US city suburbs are exposed to the "racial jungle" as he calls it, Democrats lose votes and elections. The gerrymandered lines stay in place and children aren't given options to attend better schools (public, charter, or private) outside their district.



funeralxempire
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16 Jun 2021, 1:42 pm

Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
You make this argument without ever actually connecting the accusation to real people. Who are the people openly defending and championing that?

Distracting by bringing up charter schools as though that's the only solution to that problem misses the point, so please refrain.


We can start with the US President who openly pushed for segregation in the Senate and did nothing legislatively to block the results of court decisions that undid Brown v Board of Ed and allowed gerrymandering and segregation of school districts. Again, the result today is that we have many 100% black schools with zero kids proficient in math and reading. We have entire school districts with tens of thousands of students that are 95%+ black and test proficiencies near zero. It's not something made up.

You're the one bringing up charter schools as a distraction, not me. That's always the distraction technique used by those defending the current segregation model and have no better solution. (I don't mean to suggest you support the current US model of segregation).

The President has no solution because he prefers segregation. If US city suburbs are exposed to the "racial jungle" as he calls it, Democrats lose votes and elections. The gerrymandered lines stay in place and children aren't given options to attend better schools (public, charter, or private) outside their district.


I only mention charter schools because you've used them in the past.

Generally speaking there's inertia to overcome at a local level because there's always a desire to make not having to leave a viable option. Parents will generally accept any solution since the bigger issues aren't their problem or responsibility.

Gutting the public system in hopes that it will allow everyone to move to something else never works as advertised and it leaves what's left of the public system even worse off.

Since historically that has played out to the detriment of some communities there's a hesitancy to support that option even if it means appearing to support limiting choice over all.

Gridlock and potential harms of all proposed solutions contribute to the maintaining of the problem you describe but you seem to always reframe that as solely the Democrats and civil rights activists.

I don't disagree with you about these problems existing, I just disagree when it comes to why that situation exists and how it can be solved. People who don't support your solution aren't to blame for the issue continuing to exist because if the solutions you proposed were so self-evidently ideal they would be more broadly supported.


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"If you stick a knife in my back 9 inches and pull it out 6 inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out, that's not progress. The progress is healing the wound that the blow made... and they won't even admit the knife is there." Malcolm X
戦争ではなく戦争と戦う