21 Jun 2021, 12:32 pm
funeralxempire wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Antisemitism has been common throughout the entire Christian and Muslim world and some of those attitudes likely even predate either of those religions.
With that said, different societies have shown different degrees of tolerance for the Jewish peoples. Much like European Jewry faced periods of outright hostility and periods of greater tolerance the same has been true of Jewish people in the Middle East.
I'm agreeing with the underlined. I'm not agreeing that tormenting one's Jewish neighbours who had nothing to do with the decision (even if they supported it) is a reasonable response. Just like tormenting one's Muslim or Christian neighbours because you know if they respond with force they'll be targeted by your nation's military isn't reasonable (like videos sometimes show Israeli settlers doing).
Part of what makes the conflict so vicious is that there's generations of atrocities and personal vendettas woven in. The establishment of Israel and the traumas it inflicted, along with the traumas of the Holocaust and other anti-Jewish pogroms all helps players involved justify the atrocities they desire to inflict.
I'm part of a group that faced genocidal actions so I have a degree of sympathy for both factions involved, it's a demonstration of how inter-generational trauma can have effects well beyond a personal level. Murdering the descendents of people who might have wronged your ancestors don't actually bring closure, but it does create a whole new generation of people with a vendetta resulting from trauma and grief.
With that said, different societies have shown different degrees of tolerance for the Jewish peoples. Much like European Jewry faced periods of outright hostility and periods of greater tolerance the same has been true of Jewish people in the Middle East.
I'm agreeing with the underlined. I'm not agreeing that tormenting one's Jewish neighbours who had nothing to do with the decision (even if they supported it) is a reasonable response. Just like tormenting one's Muslim or Christian neighbours because you know if they respond with force they'll be targeted by your nation's military isn't reasonable (like videos sometimes show Israeli settlers doing).
Part of what makes the conflict so vicious is that there's generations of atrocities and personal vendettas woven in. The establishment of Israel and the traumas it inflicted, along with the traumas of the Holocaust and other anti-Jewish pogroms all helps players involved justify the atrocities they desire to inflict.
I'm part of a group that faced genocidal actions so I have a degree of sympathy for both factions involved, it's a demonstration of how inter-generational trauma can have effects well beyond a personal level. Murdering the descendents of people who might have wronged your ancestors don't actually bring closure, but it does create a whole new generation of people with a vendetta resulting from trauma and grief.
Does pointing out past tolerance of Jews people or the lack of tolerance in Europe historically justify modern ethnic cleansing of Jews in the Middle East? Does it make it less bad? I'm not sure what the point of stating that is. It's similar to argument that resentment over the formation of Israel justifies ethnic cleansing of Jews in Israel and elsewhere.
The violent actions of states against the Jewish people really don't amount to a justification of genocidal actions by the Israeli state. The policies of Iraq or Egypt several regimes ago don't justify exterminating the Palestinian people.
I described the history of antisemitism to suggest that just because it is currently an issue that there's no reason attitudes can't just much like they have in Europe. That doesn't mean that Europe is free of antisemitism, but certainly support for violent expressions of it isn't like it once was. Reconciliation and better relations are possible but it's not unreasonable for their neighbours to consider ethnic cleansing a deal-breaker for good relations.
You keep trying to suggest that I'm making excuses for genocide when only one of us is openly supporting a state that engages in genocidal actions.
Protecting Jewish people in the face of ethnic cleansing in the Middle East isn't a genocidal action. Targeting and systematically removing an entire ethnicity of people from region or country is ethnic cleansing and that's exactly what happened to Jews in the Middle East and it explains why there are none left outside of Israel.
You seem to want to blame the Jews for defending themselves in the face of this ongoing genocide when they themselves are the target of that ongoing genocide. The logic is difficult to comprehend.
Targeting and systematically removing an entire ethnicity of people from region or country is ethnic cleansing and that's exactly what has been unfolding against Palestine.
You seem to want to defend ethnic cleansing of a people as a means by which to potentially secure safety while ignoring that there's no guarantee it will do anything more than lead to long-term problems, using your condemnations of genocide as a blatantly hypocritical emotional shield.
These folks should get to commit genocide because they suffered genocide and genocide is bad mmkay.
Compare the number of Palestinians living Israel to the number of Jews living in Gaza.
Again, blaming Jews for defending themselves in the face of a genocide is worse than anti-Semitism. It's evil.
21 Jun 2021, 12:42 pm
*Robber enters candy store illegally by breaking the glass to broach the store barrier and enter, starts stealing candy, and sets the alarm for the police to arrive and apprehend the criminal.*
*Cops arrive, ask the intruder to surrender peacefully, only for our idiot and violent intruder to start firing shots at the cop to which the cops retaliate gunfire*
*During such gunfight a cop is killed in the ensuing gunfight. Eventually the robber is apprehended and taken to court for murder*
*Our good judge is wondering if the robber should be charged for murder for the cop's death on top of his already existing crime of robbery, so he asks the jury for their opinion.*
Smart jury: Of course the robber should be charged for murder. The cops fired at the robber AFTER he fired at them 1st and broke the law, so the robber's actions were not self defense under any means.
Daddy63: The robber should be set free and he didnt do anything wrong. Arent poor people entitled to candy too? This court is clearly anti-poor people by saying poor people arent entitled to defend themselves while getting their candy like everyone else.
Rest of jury and judge simultaneously: 
funeralxempire
Veteran
Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 39
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 25,456
Location: Right over your left shoulder
21 Jun 2021, 12:54 pm
Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Antisemitism has been common throughout the entire Christian and Muslim world and some of those attitudes likely even predate either of those religions.
With that said, different societies have shown different degrees of tolerance for the Jewish peoples. Much like European Jewry faced periods of outright hostility and periods of greater tolerance the same has been true of Jewish people in the Middle East.
I'm agreeing with the underlined. I'm not agreeing that tormenting one's Jewish neighbours who had nothing to do with the decision (even if they supported it) is a reasonable response. Just like tormenting one's Muslim or Christian neighbours because you know if they respond with force they'll be targeted by your nation's military isn't reasonable (like videos sometimes show Israeli settlers doing).
Part of what makes the conflict so vicious is that there's generations of atrocities and personal vendettas woven in. The establishment of Israel and the traumas it inflicted, along with the traumas of the Holocaust and other anti-Jewish pogroms all helps players involved justify the atrocities they desire to inflict.
I'm part of a group that faced genocidal actions so I have a degree of sympathy for both factions involved, it's a demonstration of how inter-generational trauma can have effects well beyond a personal level. Murdering the descendents of people who might have wronged your ancestors don't actually bring closure, but it does create a whole new generation of people with a vendetta resulting from trauma and grief.
With that said, different societies have shown different degrees of tolerance for the Jewish peoples. Much like European Jewry faced periods of outright hostility and periods of greater tolerance the same has been true of Jewish people in the Middle East.
I'm agreeing with the underlined. I'm not agreeing that tormenting one's Jewish neighbours who had nothing to do with the decision (even if they supported it) is a reasonable response. Just like tormenting one's Muslim or Christian neighbours because you know if they respond with force they'll be targeted by your nation's military isn't reasonable (like videos sometimes show Israeli settlers doing).
Part of what makes the conflict so vicious is that there's generations of atrocities and personal vendettas woven in. The establishment of Israel and the traumas it inflicted, along with the traumas of the Holocaust and other anti-Jewish pogroms all helps players involved justify the atrocities they desire to inflict.
I'm part of a group that faced genocidal actions so I have a degree of sympathy for both factions involved, it's a demonstration of how inter-generational trauma can have effects well beyond a personal level. Murdering the descendents of people who might have wronged your ancestors don't actually bring closure, but it does create a whole new generation of people with a vendetta resulting from trauma and grief.
Does pointing out past tolerance of Jews people or the lack of tolerance in Europe historically justify modern ethnic cleansing of Jews in the Middle East? Does it make it less bad? I'm not sure what the point of stating that is. It's similar to argument that resentment over the formation of Israel justifies ethnic cleansing of Jews in Israel and elsewhere.
The violent actions of states against the Jewish people really don't amount to a justification of genocidal actions by the Israeli state. The policies of Iraq or Egypt several regimes ago don't justify exterminating the Palestinian people.
I described the history of antisemitism to suggest that just because it is currently an issue that there's no reason attitudes can't just much like they have in Europe. That doesn't mean that Europe is free of antisemitism, but certainly support for violent expressions of it isn't like it once was. Reconciliation and better relations are possible but it's not unreasonable for their neighbours to consider ethnic cleansing a deal-breaker for good relations.
You keep trying to suggest that I'm making excuses for genocide when only one of us is openly supporting a state that engages in genocidal actions.
Protecting Jewish people in the face of ethnic cleansing in the Middle East isn't a genocidal action. Targeting and systematically removing an entire ethnicity of people from region or country is ethnic cleansing and that's exactly what happened to Jews in the Middle East and it explains why there are none left outside of Israel.
You seem to want to blame the Jews for defending themselves in the face of this ongoing genocide when they themselves are the target of that ongoing genocide. The logic is difficult to comprehend.
Targeting and systematically removing an entire ethnicity of people from region or country is ethnic cleansing and that's exactly what has been unfolding against Palestine.
You seem to want to defend ethnic cleansing of a people as a means by which to potentially secure safety while ignoring that there's no guarantee it will do anything more than lead to long-term problems, using your condemnations of genocide as a blatantly hypocritical emotional shield.
These folks should get to commit genocide because they suffered genocide and genocide is bad mmkay.
Compare the number of Palestinians living Israel to the number of Jews living in Gaza.
Again, blaming Jews for defending themselves in the face of a genocide is worse than anti-Semitism. It's evil.
How big exactly is Gaza compared to Israel? Gaza is basically a neighbourhood compared to the country of Israel and Israel has slowly turned it into the world's largest concentration camp while allowing the Palestinians to have nominal ownership over it. The fact that Palestinians would be unkind towards more settlers stealing more of Palestine doesn't really make the point you'd like it to make.
Blaming the Palestinians for not sympathizing with the people committing genocide against them is what's actually evil. The only way your logic makes sense is to ignore the humanity of the Palestinian people, otherwise how could you claim to be against genocide while openly condoning continued ethnic cleansing against them?
I've seen you use pretzel logic to defend some pretty terrible things, but never genocide and never by pretending to be opposed to the exact thing you're defending.
21 Jun 2021, 1:19 pm
21 Jun 2021, 1:21 pm
salad wrote:
*Robber enters candy store illegally by breaking the glass to broach the store barrier and enter, starts stealing candy, and sets the alarm for the police to arrive and apprehend the criminal.*
*Cops arrive, ask the intruder to surrender peacefully, only for our idiot and violent intruder to start firing shots at the cop to which the cops retaliate gunfire*
*During such gunfight a cop is killed in the ensuing gunfight. Eventually the robber is apprehended and taken to court for murder*
*Our good judge is wondering if the robber should be charged for murder for the cop's death on top of his already existing crime of robbery, so he asks the jury for their opinion.*
Smart jury: Of course the robber should be charged for murder. The cops fired at the robber AFTER he fired at them 1st and broke the law, so the robber's actions were not self defense under any means.
Daddy63: The robber should be set free and he didnt do anything wrong. Arent poor people entitled to candy too? This court is clearly anti-poor people by saying poor people arent entitled to defend themselves while getting their candy like everyone else.
Rest of jury and judge simultaneously:
*Cops arrive, ask the intruder to surrender peacefully, only for our idiot and violent intruder to start firing shots at the cop to which the cops retaliate gunfire*
*During such gunfight a cop is killed in the ensuing gunfight. Eventually the robber is apprehended and taken to court for murder*
*Our good judge is wondering if the robber should be charged for murder for the cop's death on top of his already existing crime of robbery, so he asks the jury for their opinion.*
Smart jury: Of course the robber should be charged for murder. The cops fired at the robber AFTER he fired at them 1st and broke the law, so the robber's actions were not self defense under any means.
Daddy63: The robber should be set free and he didnt do anything wrong. Arent poor people entitled to candy too? This court is clearly anti-poor people by saying poor people arent entitled to defend themselves while getting their candy like everyone else.
Rest of jury and judge simultaneously:
Just seems like a fairytale fabricated to justify ethnic cleansing of Jews.
funeralxempire
Veteran
Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 39
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 25,456
Location: Right over your left shoulder
21 Jun 2021, 1:23 pm
21 Jun 2021, 1:52 pm
Daddy63 wrote:
salad wrote:
*Robber enters candy store illegally by breaking the glass to broach the store barrier and enter, starts stealing candy, and sets the alarm for the police to arrive and apprehend the criminal.*
*Cops arrive, ask the intruder to surrender peacefully, only for our idiot and violent intruder to start firing shots at the cop to which the cops retaliate gunfire*
*During such gunfight a cop is killed in the ensuing gunfight. Eventually the robber is apprehended and taken to court for murder*
*Our good judge is wondering if the robber should be charged for murder for the cop's death on top of his already existing crime of robbery, so he asks the jury for their opinion.*
Smart jury: Of course the robber should be charged for murder. The cops fired at the robber AFTER he fired at them 1st and broke the law, so the robber's actions were not self defense under any means.
Daddy63: The robber should be set free and he didnt do anything wrong. Arent poor people entitled to candy too? This court is clearly anti-poor people by saying poor people arent entitled to defend themselves while getting their candy like everyone else.
Rest of jury and judge simultaneously:
*Cops arrive, ask the intruder to surrender peacefully, only for our idiot and violent intruder to start firing shots at the cop to which the cops retaliate gunfire*
*During such gunfight a cop is killed in the ensuing gunfight. Eventually the robber is apprehended and taken to court for murder*
*Our good judge is wondering if the robber should be charged for murder for the cop's death on top of his already existing crime of robbery, so he asks the jury for their opinion.*
Smart jury: Of course the robber should be charged for murder. The cops fired at the robber AFTER he fired at them 1st and broke the law, so the robber's actions were not self defense under any means.
Daddy63: The robber should be set free and he didnt do anything wrong. Arent poor people entitled to candy too? This court is clearly anti-poor people by saying poor people arent entitled to defend themselves while getting their candy like everyone else.
Rest of jury and judge simultaneously:
Just seems like a fairytale fabricated to justify ethnic cleansing of Jews.
What's a fairytale, that Israel was formed by the theft of Palestinian land from native Palestinians and the genocide of Palestinians to acquire that land? Buddy that's not a fairytale, that's a documented historical fact. There are actually archives and history books and even testimonials from soldiers of Isrsel from 1948 where they admit that they intentionally slaughtered and ethnically cleansed the Palestinians from their land. If you dont believe me I'll even provide the sources:
"The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Israeli historian Illan Pape
"Image and Reality of the Palestinian Conflict" by Jewish professor and son of Holocaust survivors Norman Finklestein
"The Hundred Year War on Palestine" by Rashid Al-Khalidi
"1948: Creation and Catastrophe" a documentary where Israeli soldiers from 1948 are interviewed and openly admit to on camera ethnically cleansing Palestine and justifying it
Now, I've quoted to you textbooks and scholarly documents by primary sources and respected scholars on this topic, so dont you dare call anything I've said as fiction or fairytales. You have yet to quote a single source for any of your assertions and contentions while I've provided ample and reputable sources for everything I've said
Stay in your lane kid and dont argue without knowledge
21 Jun 2021, 2:49 pm
salad wrote:
Daddy63 wrote:
salad wrote:
*Robber enters candy store illegally by breaking the glass to broach the store barrier and enter, starts stealing candy, and sets the alarm for the police to arrive and apprehend the criminal.*
*Cops arrive, ask the intruder to surrender peacefully, only for our idiot and violent intruder to start firing shots at the cop to which the cops retaliate gunfire*
*During such gunfight a cop is killed in the ensuing gunfight. Eventually the robber is apprehended and taken to court for murder*
*Our good judge is wondering if the robber should be charged for murder for the cop's death on top of his already existing crime of robbery, so he asks the jury for their opinion.*
Smart jury: Of course the robber should be charged for murder. The cops fired at the robber AFTER he fired at them 1st and broke the law, so the robber's actions were not self defense under any means.
Daddy63: The robber should be set free and he didnt do anything wrong. Arent poor people entitled to candy too? This court is clearly anti-poor people by saying poor people arent entitled to defend themselves while getting their candy like everyone else.
Rest of jury and judge simultaneously:
*Cops arrive, ask the intruder to surrender peacefully, only for our idiot and violent intruder to start firing shots at the cop to which the cops retaliate gunfire*
*During such gunfight a cop is killed in the ensuing gunfight. Eventually the robber is apprehended and taken to court for murder*
*Our good judge is wondering if the robber should be charged for murder for the cop's death on top of his already existing crime of robbery, so he asks the jury for their opinion.*
Smart jury: Of course the robber should be charged for murder. The cops fired at the robber AFTER he fired at them 1st and broke the law, so the robber's actions were not self defense under any means.
Daddy63: The robber should be set free and he didnt do anything wrong. Arent poor people entitled to candy too? This court is clearly anti-poor people by saying poor people arent entitled to defend themselves while getting their candy like everyone else.
Rest of jury and judge simultaneously:
Just seems like a fairytale fabricated to justify ethnic cleansing of Jews.
What's a fairytale, that Israel was formed by the theft of Palestinian land from native Palestinians and the genocide of Palestinians to acquire that land? Buddy that's not a fairytale, that's a documented historical fact. There are actually archives and history books and even testimonials from soldiers of Isrsel from 1948 where they admit that they intentionally slaughtered and ethnically cleansed the Palestinians from their land. If you dont believe me I'll even provide the sources:
"The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Israeli historian Illan Pape
"Image and Reality of the Palestinian Conflict" by Jewish professor and son of Holocaust survivors Norman Finklestein
"The Hundred Year War on Palestine" by Rashid Al-Khalidi
"1948: Creation and Catastrophe" a documentary where Israeli soldiers from 1948 are interviewed and openly admit to on camera ethnically cleansing Palestine and justifying it
Now, I've quoted to you textbooks and scholarly documents by primary sources and respected scholars on this topic, so dont you dare call anything I've said as fiction or fairytales. You have yet to quote a single source for any of your assertions and contentions while I've provided ample and reputable sources for everything I've said
Stay in your lane kid and dont argue without knowledge
Jews simply have a right to live yet they face an ongoing genocide. I will defend their right to live and defend their right to protect themselves always. Fairytales about robbers don't justify the genocide.
Why do you expect Jews to submit to the genocide and not defend themselves? Should they purposely place themselves in front of the missiles and accept their deaths?
21 Jun 2021, 3:53 pm
funeralxempire
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Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 39
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 25,456
Location: Right over your left shoulder
21 Jun 2021, 4:05 pm
21 Jun 2021, 4:51 pm
21 Jun 2021, 4:59 pm
funeralxempire
Veteran
Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 39
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 25,456
Location: Right over your left shoulder
21 Jun 2021, 4:59 pm
21 Jun 2021, 5:18 pm
funeralxempire
Veteran
Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 39
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 25,456
Location: Right over your left shoulder
21 Jun 2021, 5:23 pm
21 Jun 2021, 5:32 pm
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