How important is the other person's job?

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cyberdad
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24 Jun 2021, 1:16 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:
On top of that she's allergic to antibiotics and she can't have flu vaccines. There was just no way she could go to daycare, and I'm sure there are many infants and children with similar needs who rely on personalised care at home. It would have been untenable for her to grow up jostled between a daycare centre @ 10 hours a day, and shuffled between her father's house and my house on a regimented schedule. Kids need a home base and a sense of stability especially in the case of divorce and / or special needs.


Yeah, you have to do what's practically best for your child. As you correctly point out there's no one size fits all practice with childcare/homecare. It depends on the parents and the individual child's needs.

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Back to the original question I don't care if my partner is blue-collar, white-collar, an artist or on disability. All that matters is if we get along, and if they give more than half-a-crap about their children's best interest..

This sounds like words of wisdom from a woman who has life experience. But you will agree with me that young girls don't think like this. They approach life with a philosophy that's "carpe diem"

IsabellaLinton wrote:
I'm glad you were involved in your daughter's life and her education. I didn't miss a meeting either. There were some very involved dads at her schools. I think children are blessed when they have two parents supporting them.


We are like most parents, we love our girlo to death (even if she drives us nuts sometimes) :lol:



IsabellaLinton
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24 Jun 2021, 1:43 am

cyberdad wrote:
But you will agree with me that young girls don't think like this. They approach life with a philosophy that's "carpe diem"


I'm not sure what you're basing this on. Are these young women you know, or is it an attitude you see in the media?

What age range are you referring to (in general)?

My daughter's friends are all very cautious about dating or forming relationships. Most of them look beyond the superficial trappings of income, cars, looks, etc., and they want a partner they connect with intellectually or philosophically. Most of them have longterm relationships of several years rather than demonstrating a carpe diem attitude. My daughter's best friend just got married and they were both virgins. I don't think they seized many days at all (lol) prior to marriage. These young women are well-educated and "woke" liberals but they all plan to stay home as long as possible raising their children without daycare, or even choosing to home-school instead of using traditional or remote learning with a classroom teacher.

Regarding my daughter I forgot to add that she wore cloth diapers which I hand-laundered. I'm old-school, but she was also allergic to disposables. That's another reason she wouldn't have been accepted to many daycare centres even if I had wanted her to attend. In the early years of my career, 10 hour days of care from a licensed Scottish nanny was 66% of my net income. It was more than 100% when my son later attended. The benefit is that they only needed full time daycare for five years. It was short-term pain for long term gain. I stuck with my career, earned tenure, and my salary increased to six digits after they stopped needing a nanny. I earned a pension, millions of dollars in life insurance, medical benefits, and my current LTD coverage, by putting in those years of toil. It definitely paid off in the end, and to that extent I'm really grateful that I didn't give up or quit.



cyberdad
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24 Jun 2021, 1:54 am

Most of my daughter's classmates are still too young but I observe girls in the 18-30 range here in Melbourne and they all seem to be into partying and boyfriends. Prior to the rona they all travelled. I worked with a group of 4 female staff in their late 20s who were all highly educated, socially conservative (but single). They all took a trip together to the US and when they got back the four things they did over there were i) take selfies and video blogs of the food they ate and tourist attractions to show off to friends ii) wake up at 12pm and then go out all night iii) get drunk iv) hook up with American boys.

Would these women date a man who earns less than them? no! but they will sleep with them if they are good looking.



DW_a_mom
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24 Jun 2021, 8:02 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
But it freaks me out when people (men or women) think it's somehow degrading to run a household and care for children, especially in America where people ship six week old babies to strangers so they can earn minimum wage. It's not their fault. People do what they have to do, but they also deserve respect for staying home if they can.


America society is trapped between conflicting values and norms. One the one hand society doesn't want to help single mothers so as not to encourage women to become single mothers, but then many areas don't teach adequate sex education or provide affordable access to birth control. On the one hand society wants to keep wages low to encourage people to "improve" themselves but then make it impossible for people to do so by throwing up roadblocks like childcare expenses. On the one hand society wants a parent to stay home with the children, but on the other it doesn't want to do anything to make it more affordable because having children is a "choice." These are only the tip of the ice berg; it hasn't been politically feasible to look forward and invest money towards to future for a long time.


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DW_a_mom
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24 Jun 2021, 8:10 pm

cyberdad wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
Back to the original question I don't care if my partner is blue-collar, white-collar, an artist or on disability. All that matters is if we get along, and if they give more than half-a-crap about their children's best interest..

This sounds like words of wisdom from a woman who has life experience. But you will agree with me that young girls don't think like this. They approach life with a philosophy that's "carpe diem"


Some are, some aren't. My 20 year daughter most definitely is NOT, nor is my son's girlfriend, nor anyone in their circle of friends. They are all quite responsible and serious. They've seen the weight of the world seem to fall around them more than once in their young lives. There is a realism in them that didn't exist when I was young. And it's sad to realize that they see the future as something bleak, a world that won't be able to offer to them the lifestyle they grew up with, instead of a world of opportunity like I saw at their age (I simply took it for granted back then that each generation would fair better than the past one).

Perhaps there are two sides to that coin of reduced optimism: the ones that dig in and become extra responsible and frugal, and the ones that live to enjoy what they can while they can because no one is promising tomorrow.

Of course, Australia and the US may be a little different. One thing I think about with my young adult children is the profound affect school shooting drills and lock downs must have had on their young minds. They've never known a world where that threat did not exist.

I should also note that I don't see much difference between how the young men think and how the young women think when it comes to this topic.


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cyberdad
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24 Jun 2021, 8:27 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
[
Of course, Australia and the US may be a little different. One thing I think about with my young adult children is the profound affect school shooting drills and lock downs must have had on their young minds. They've never known a world where that threat did not exist.


Good question? I think we have a culture that promotes individualism, and since the 1960s feminist movement, Australian girls have been encouraged to break the hold that parents/society had over them in previous generations.

One big influence is that Aussies (male and female) have turned their backs on church and christian values. I recall even when I was in a catholic school that in a classroom of students attending religious studies in the early 1980s that all of the students in the class laughed and agreed with a boy who said that the bible was BS. I recall being shocked as I thought these kids were religious. I was wrong.

The rise in contraception and the low drinking age (18) also influence kids. Most girls start drinking at 16 in Australia. Parents are very permissive over their kids drinking. Dating/boyfriends are normalised (we also have school proms/dances that start when the kids turn 15). Isn't that the same in the US? children who don't have a date for the school prom are thought of as social outcastes.

Girls become independent at a young age here.



IsabellaLinton
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24 Jun 2021, 9:13 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
But it freaks me out when people (men or women) think it's somehow degrading to run a household and care for children, especially in America where people ship six week old babies to strangers so they can earn minimum wage. It's not their fault. People do what they have to do, but they also deserve respect for staying home if they can.


America society is trapped between conflicting values and norms. One the one hand society doesn't want to help single mothers so as not to encourage women to become single mothers, but then many areas don't teach adequate sex education or provide affordable access to birth control. On the one hand society wants to keep wages low to encourage people to "improve" themselves but then make it impossible for people to do so by throwing up roadblocks like childcare expenses. On the one hand society wants a parent to stay home with the children, but on the other it doesn't want to do anything to make it more affordable because having children is a "choice." These are only the tip of the ice berg; it hasn't been politically feasible to look forward and invest money towards to future for a long time.


You're right that it does seem worse in America. I'd never want to live there because of the abysmal maternity leave standards, and the fact that fathers have a hard time getting paternity leave. I don't understand how a nation that says they're so great, could send six week babies to daycare with formula and disposable diapers. I could never wrap my head around that. My cousin in PA had twins and went back to work when they were under two months old. In my case I should have had at least two years of income / job protection on my maternity leave, but I ended up back at work when she was six months old because her father is an a***hole. I thought six months was horrible because I was still nursing. I don't know how on earth these other parents manage going back to work after a few weeks without postpartum depression and / or wanting to jump off a cliff. And then, like you said, if they do stay home the mothers are ridiculed for being "uneducated" and not putting their career (or crap job) ahead of their baby.

I will never, ever understand having a baby knowing someone else will raise it for you, and take most of your income.

The school shootings are yet another issue I agree with, but I don't want to derail this topic more than I already have.

:wink:



DW_a_mom
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25 Jun 2021, 2:02 am

cyberdad wrote:

The rise in contraception and the low drinking age (18) also influence kids. Most girls start drinking at 16 in Australia. Parents are very permissive over their kids drinking. Dating/boyfriends are normalised (we also have school proms/dances that start when the kids turn 15). Isn't that the same in the US? children who don't have a date for the school prom are thought of as social out-castes.

Girls become independent at a young age here.


Most of these vary quite a lot by region, state or town. We do have dances starting at a young age (middle school), but in most places it has become normal and OK for students to go with large groups of friends instead of with dates, and I love how that has changed.

Where I live the laws on drinking are very strict and parents can be criminally charged if they allow teen drinking to get out of hand. I don't know what age young adults start driving where you are, but here they can drive at 16, and I personally believe that the clamping down on teen drinking has a lot to do with how many teens have died from driving after drinking.

The freedom we give our teenage girls tends to be the ability to drive themselves places, but that carries a certain amount of responsibility. Any mistakes and they lose their driver's license.


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29 Jun 2021, 6:52 am

I'm disabled & the best jobs I could get were minimum wage type stuff & I was extremely lucky to get those jobs. I've been told that the places get hundreds of apps & don't have time to go through em all :( I'm sure that me being disabled was a major factor as to why I could not get a girlfriend when I was not working, & when I was working me having a minimum wage job was a very negative factor as well even though I was working overtime whenever I was allowed to. Where I originally come from there is aLOT of negative stigma towards disableds & other people needing help & assistance with things. There is also a bit of income inequality between men & women & there is also a bit of pressure on women to take care of the housekeeping & the domestic responsibilities. Women can have jobs but they are raised with the expectation that taking care of their house & family will come 1st. I'm sure that stuff makes LOTS of women very wary about dating a disabled guy on benefits &/or who is making minimum wage.

My partner being able to spend a lot of time at home with me would be a major plus & it's one of the reasons why I would actually rather be with a woman who was also disabled & not working or only working a little. A woman who was working full time would quickly start resenting me for not going to work while she has to. Even if I was working full time for minimum wage, she would resent me for her feeling the need to pick up my financial slack. That's one major reason me & my mom fought so much until I moved out at 30. Mom resented me for not working or only contributing a little financially when I was working because she was very stressed out working in her job. I would HATE for my romantic partner to resent me that way. If my partner was working I personally would not really care what kinda job my partner has as long as it was legal & she wasn't a porn star or something.


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Nades
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29 Jun 2021, 7:13 am

What job the other person has doesn't bother me much as long as it's a job that pays their share of the bills with their own money. They could he cleaning toilets for all I care as long as they're not sponging off me or the state.

A big difference in hours might be a deal breaker for many too. I've had issues both long in the past and recently where the people I dated just didn't want to earn their own keep in society yet alone in a relationship. They would insist on working as few hours as they could and make up the rest with state benefits and those were just the ones with an actual job. Many didn't even work full stop.

I would never want to date someone who deliberately works so few hours the state has to support them. Worse still, if I ever decide to let them move in with me or vice versa, they'll be stripped of all their benefits and the vast majority of "their income" leaving them depending on me.

It's pretty much as unsexy as someone could be....and also selfish.



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29 Jun 2021, 8:40 am

Nades wrote:
What job the other person has doesn't bother me much as long as it's a job that pays their share of the bills with their own money. They could he cleaning toilets for all I care as long as they're not sponging off me or the state.

A big difference in hours might be a deal breaker for many too. I've had issues both long in the past and recently where the people I dated just didn't want to earn their own keep in society yet alone in a relationship. They would insist on working as few hours as they could and make up the rest with state benefits and those were just the ones with an actual job. Many didn't even work full stop.

I would never want to date someone who deliberately works so few hours the state has to support them. Worse still, if I ever decide to let them move in with me or vice versa, they'll be stripped of all their benefits and the vast majority of "their income" leaving them depending on me.

It's pretty much as unsexy as someone could be....and also selfish.
How do you feel about people who have disabilities that majorly limit them with finding & maintaining employment :?: Where I come from LOTs would see me as a sponge & I was doing my very best to find employment. Also here in the US, depending on the type of benefits someone is on, they may not lose them if they move in with a romantic partner or even get married. For example Social Security Disability & Social Security Retirement benefit amounts are based on the money the person has paid into the system by working & those benefits should not be affected by their resources, living expenses, or their partners income if they get married. The main thing is that the person is disabled or old enough to be officially retired & they have less than a certain amount of money coming in from working themselves. They could keep money & resources from other methods like family, inheritance, gifts, or even winning the lottery & suddenly becoming Bill Gates rich. They could still keep their Social Security Disability & Social Security Retirement because they earned that money themselves by working. They paid into the system by their taxes in order to have the money there if they retired & were forced to quit working due to disability. Some people on benefits are used to living very cheap cuz they can not afford expensive luxuries themselves. If you are worried about someone mooching off of you, you could each have separate bank accounts & sign a Prenuptial Agreement when getting married to protect yourself in the event of a divorce. People can contribute to the household & the relationship in various ways besides financially. Maybe she does most of the housework chores, helps out your family with various tasks like driving your mom to doc appointments or babysitting your sisters kids, maybe she's very attractive & good in bed, maybe she listens to you & encourages you & makes you laugh to cheer you up when you get home after having a bad day at work & she gives you a good massage that night. You get the idea. That is the kinda stuff that would mean something to me(other than the physically attractive & good in bed thing, it would be nice but not very important) & would be totally worth me being the only working person in the household if I could earn enough to afford it. I don't need to spend much money to be happy. As long as I have a place to stay, food, cable TV, internet, & my desktop I'd be happy just having a loving woman with me.


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Nades
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30 Jun 2021, 4:20 am

nick007 wrote:
Nades wrote:
What job the other person has doesn't bother me much as long as it's a job that pays their share of the bills with their own money. They could he cleaning toilets for all I care as long as they're not sponging off me or the state.

A big difference in hours might be a deal breaker for many too. I've had issues both long in the past and recently where the people I dated just didn't want to earn their own keep in society yet alone in a relationship. They would insist on working as few hours as they could and make up the rest with state benefits and those were just the ones with an actual job. Many didn't even work full stop.

I would never want to date someone who deliberately works so few hours the state has to support them. Worse still, if I ever decide to let them move in with me or vice versa, they'll be stripped of all their benefits and the vast majority of "their income" leaving them depending on me.

It's pretty much as unsexy as someone could be....and also selfish.
How do you feel about people who have disabilities that majorly limit them with finding & maintaining employment :?: Where I come from LOTs would see me as a sponge & I was doing my very best to find employment. Also here in the US, depending on the type of benefits someone is on, they may not lose them if they move in with a romantic partner or even get married. For example Social Security Disability & Social Security Retirement benefit amounts are based on the money the person has paid into the system by working & those benefits should not be affected by their resources, living expenses, or their partners income if they get married. The main thing is that the person is disabled or old enough to be officially retired & they have less than a certain amount of money coming in from working themselves. They could keep money & resources from other methods like family, inheritance, gifts, or even winning the lottery & suddenly becoming Bill Gates rich. They could still keep their Social Security Disability & Social Security Retirement because they earned that money themselves by working. They paid into the system by their taxes in order to have the money there if they retired & were forced to quit working due to disability. Some people on benefits are used to living very cheap cuz they can not afford expensive luxuries themselves. If you are worried about someone mooching off of you, you could each have separate bank accounts & sign a Prenuptial Agreement when getting married to protect yourself in the event of a divorce. People can contribute to the household & the relationship in various ways besides financially. Maybe she does most of the housework chores, helps out your family with various tasks like driving your mom to doc appointments or babysitting your sisters kids, maybe she's very attractive & good in bed, maybe she listens to you & encourages you & makes you laugh to cheer you up when you get home after having a bad day at work & she gives you a good massage that night. You get the idea. That is the kinda stuff that would mean something to me(other than the physically attractive & good in bed thing, it would be nice but not very important) & would be totally worth me being the only working person in the household if I could earn enough to afford it. I don't need to spend much money to be happy. As long as I have a place to stay, food, cable TV, internet, & my desktop I'd be happy just having a loving woman with me.


The UK is broadly similar with disability benefits it seems. Those on genuine disability benefits have them irrespective of where or who they live with. The other type of benefits are means tested often by household rather than the individual (can't have 4 people in one house each claiming housing benefits for example). People on the latter will be hard for me to get along with as they'll be stripped of a huge amount of income and only one person can replace it, me.

People on disability benefits bother me a lot less as many don't really have much choice and they also can't be stripped of then by moving in with a working partner. That said, i would have expectations of them if it's a mental disability. The first is that they needed to have made a concerted effort to look for, or assuming they found a job, stick it out for more than a few weeks and not throw a strop after a couple of days.

The second is that they need to look half decent. Someone on disability benefits (assuming not physical) has all the time they could possibly have to look after themselves and still being obese with an infinite amount of time to work out is a deal breaker for me. I would want to walk outside holding the hand of a girlfriend without feeling embarrassed by her lifestyle and looks.

The third is obvious. They can't be obnoxious. I'm not working 55 hour weeks and dealing with crappy tenant's on weekends only to be told what to do by a partner when I get back home after a week of all of that. If I'm asked to mow the grass after a 10 hour day while they sat at home for that time they'll be out house immediately.

To sum it up. Disability doesn't bother me much but I'm not working myself into an early grave for a disabled partner or am I happy with watching them turn into overweight slobs when they have 24/7 to look after themselves.