A lot of men need to learn what "no means no" means.

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Whether it's this stupid culture that tells men that being rejected by a women somehow is an invitation to pursue her further, whether it's some backwards logic that tells men the more a women says no the more attractive it is to pursue her, whether it's weird notions that Gaston types from "Beauty And the Beast" that dont take no for an answer are the pinnacle of masculinity, or whether its men who cant control their hormones, this has gotten ridiculous.

I'm in the middle of an argument on WP until my phone starts flooding with texts. My sister was crying and complaining to me how the same men at the gym keep harassing her with obscene sexual innuendo and trying to flirt with her despite repeated rejections. Now my little sister isnt religious, she dresses in shorts and a tank top when she works out, and yes men consider her extremely attractive, so much so just about every guy in my community has tried to hit on her at one point or another.

Now however she dresses and however attractive guys thinks she is I dont give a damn. When my sister cant work out without some horny men, the same ones mind you, constantly harassing her and making dirty comments to her, then we need to have a talk

It isnt even just the men in this gym. I've had to actually had to fight men who have been stalking my sister for over 6 f*****g years, 6 years of repeated stalking, from multiple horny men

My sister doesnt wear make up and dress beautifully to attract creeps; she does that because she likes to look beautiful and pretty like a princess since that's who she is

To the person on WP I was arguing with I'm going to have to put our debate on hold because of this emergency. Looks like some men going to need a talk

And to the men who do this, which to be fair most people on this forum are respectful towards women and dont act like this, but if you are one of those types of men who are so desperate for a girl violating her boundaries even after repeatedly being told no, please stop. Most women get creeped the hell out by this and if they dont show it its because many women are too scared to react strongly knowing the power imbalance between men and women

And if you want to talk to a women you find attractive at least have common sense and dont think making comments about her body is cute. It may work for some guys but in most cases its weird

Almost every single man is biologically hard-wired to have some sort of sex drive and this is in thanks to testosterone which men produce lots of. In some ways, having a sex drive is beneficial because you're more likely to be motivated to pursue romantic and sexual partners if you have a strong desire for romance and sex. Without a sex drive, our species likely wouldn't have survived as long as we have.

But sometimes, especially when a man has too much testosterone and has too high of a sex drive, it can be more harmful than good and result in behavioral problems, especially when combined with poor social skills and/or poor impulse control. Testosterone is what gives a man his physical strength and sex drive but too much of it can make men more aggressive, more violent, more likely to take risks, and have other behavioral problems. It's no wonder that the majority of violent and sex crimes are committed by men since we produce 10x more testosterone than women produce.

You are a good guy, Salad. Thank you for standing up for your sister. Thank you for speaking up in support of women.

The harassment women get is difficult. It has a strong, negative impact on us. The best thing about getting old was realizing one day that men were not harassing me anymore. I don't miss it. I miss feeling pretty (I was never beautiful, but I did have my moments), but I don't miss what that elicited from men. Positive attention is good, but harassment is not. It often felt like the volume of harassment was much higher than the positive attention. And no definitely means no.

Unfortunately this is true. I know that I've discussed contingency plans with friends before, in case a man does not want to leave us alone and won't take no for an answer.

Sometimes I receive explicit messages from men on social media that claim to know a friend. From men I don't know. When they ask for nudes or for me to describe my body, I block them. I just want to get out of that conversation as soon as possible.

Personally I am greatly relieved when a guy takes a rejection in stride. My first thought is to thank him for not pressuring me further, which is a bit messed up.

I can be hesitant when coming out as gay, since unfortunately there are men out there who take this as a challenge and think that I am playing hard to get. This is especially common on dating apps where I put in my description that I am a lesbian and have my settings to 'woman seeking woman', yet still get straight guys trying to flirt with me. Even on dating apps purposefully intended for gay and bi women looking for other women. Then they'll put in their profile "Why am I having such a hard time here?" Gee, real mystery that one.

There are articles out there advising men how to convince lesbians to date them, and I stumbled upon an article featuring a list on how to do so once. It was an uncomfortable read.

Some men take their dating advice from movies, so when they watch movies where the protagonist wins the heart of the love interest despite her initially saying no, these men will assume they can eventually win the woman of their dreams over. Teenagers are more likely to hold this perception since many teenagers are still naïve enough to believe movies are just like real life.

Other men take their advice from pickup artists who give them bad and potentially dangerous advice. Not saying all pickup artists are bad and sleazy but some of them may advocate their viewers to continue pursuing a girl even after she initially said no, and when a woman says she has a boyfriend, then it's merely a "s**t test" and by ignoring the boyfriend comment and continuing to chase her, she'll eventually fall for him. The men who follow these type of pickup artists usually lack the experience to realize why this advice could be potentially bad.


Other pickup artists encourage their viewers to approach women they're interested in dating throughout their everyday life whether that's at the gym, on the street, or at a social event where they don't know anybody, this is otherwise known as "cold approach" or "day game". Although approaching a woman and talking to her isn't necessarily bad, it's when a woman makes it clear she doesn't want to be bothered and the man continues to chase her, is when it gets bad.


Still, other men have a combination of a high sex drive, low social skills, and poor impulse control and are more prone to commit inappropriate romantic and sexual behaviors in general.

On the other hand, there is some truth to the idea of "playing hard-to-get".  Inwardly, a person who is asked for a date might be turning cartwheels; but externally, that person may only display bemused indifference so as to not appear desperate; and no one -- even the most unattractive person -- should ever appear desperate for a date.

It is true that many women USED to be socialized to say no even when they meant yes, but I can't help but wonder at this stage in my life if that socialization came from a patriarchy looking for an excuse to act the way it wanted to. It isn't like in my shy days I ever made a choice to be hard to get; my social training in-bedded the idea deep inside me that I wouldn't be a "nice girl" if I allowed myself to show interest right away.

I believe that women today carry a whole lot less of that subconscious socialization, and know that they need to speak their minds directly albeit tactfully. In a world where the message widely taught is "no means no," which was not true back in my day, a guy is just being a self-centered @#^@!^ if he lets himself believe that all he needs to do is be persistent.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 22 Jun 2021, 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It's not just about sex in my opinion. Lots of men don't understand "no means no" even in the context of communication, friendship, or respecting emotional boundaries. I'm sure there are women who don't take no for an answer either, but I've mostly experienced it from men.

I never heard the term "no means no" until 1989 after a heinous murder of 14 women in Montreal. That was the first time I heard about sexism or misogyny, or the need for women to stand against it.

When I was growing up prior to 1989 I wasn't aware of any sex / dating expectations or pressures.

In today's world, people are often wearing headphones. That is often an indication that someone wants to be left alone, especially at the gym or on transit rides or in grocery stores or retails stores. Just my two cents. I myself was not interested in any communication when I went to the gym and my headphones were on which was 100% of the time. The occasional conversation took place in the sauna which I didn't mind and we didn't do coed saunas.

Back in my day (1960s-1970s) a "Stalker" was either a hunter tracking deer, or a nebulous concept of some sinister person in a trench coat with pockets full of candy following little kids around and watching them run around on the playground.

Nowadays, a stalker can be just about anyone who asks the same person for a date again after being told "No" the first time.

That's not accurate. If a guy asks a woman out and she says "No, not interested" or "not available," and three months later he asks again, and then quits - that's not stalking.

Stalking means surveilling to an extent that invades privacy, using subterfuge to gain access, following someone around and learning their daily routines, things like that.

In the wider sense, yes.

Some girls play games and persistence pays off. How does a guy learn the difference?

If I’d been the kind of guy who always had to ask permission or was too meek to try rough sex, I probably never would have dated or gotten married. When a girl meant “no,” she made it explicitly clear and there was never even a question. As men, I think we walk a fine line between being assertive (not aggressive) and making our intentions clear and being sideswiped by women we didn’t know we abused—and I’m talking about those of us who are NOT jerks. Otherwise, all you can do is assume ALL men are jerks, which is more or less how I see things.

I mean, think about it: If you’re a nice guy, even a little timid, then you’re a jerk because you’re only being nice and respectful because you want to attract a girl; girls don’t want you because you either look weak or they think you’re a creeper who’s going to kidnap them and put them down a dry well (it puts the lotion on its skin...). If you’re a little bit of a jerk, then girls find you attractive, but you end up in prison at the first sign of trouble. If you’re full on jerk, then girls are either too scared to be with you or too scared to leave you. If a guy is just a nice guy, he’s screwed, anyway, and not in the good way, but all he hears is how girls want nice guys and the guys they date are jerks. “He’s so mean. Geez, Rho, why can’t guys be more like you?” “Hey, why don’t you just break up with him and go out with me?” “Awe, Rho, you’re so sweet, but you’re really just like a brother to me...” Puke.

So what exactly is the truth? Obviously I learned how to get around it and I turned out just fine. But that’s not going to be helpful for the next guy.

My wife’s perspective is sometimes women are just too afraid of men. Men are bigger and meaner, so sometimes it’s easier to just go along with whatever a man wants for one minute. She said, “no, you didn’t take no for an answer. But the difference was that my ex had hurt me. So I thought that’s all it was, that you were just going to take what you wanted, it would hurt, and I could just break up with you. You showed me I could trust you and you wouldn’t hurt me, and that completely changed our whole relationship. Most women don’t have that experience, which is why no means no is such a thing.”

I don’t disregard that a woman has the right to say no. I think a woman refusing men’s advances ought to be respected. But I also had the experience of dating women who found men who HAD to ask permission to be unattractive. I recall a redhead who said “don’t kiss me,” and let me kiss her anyway. Reason? She was in a bad relationship and felt confused about cheating on her fiancé. It wasn’t that she didn’t want to be kissed. If that were true, she would have been with her fiancé instead of me. I asked another girl what she would think about me kissing her. She just said, “I don’t.” I pressed her on the issue and she said, “I meant exactly what I said. I don’t think.” Kissing wasn’t the only thing she didn’t think about in that situation. So it gets tricky trying to navigate situations when a woman isn’t giving you permission, but she’s not resisting, either. Is she not resisting because she wants you to invade her space, or is she afraid of you and trying to get rid of you as quickly as possible even if it means consenting to something she doesn’t really want?

I guess it’s easy for me to talk. I haven’t dated in nearly 2 decades, the last relationship before this one being with the girl who didn’t think. How exactly do people even get together these days, anyway? I don’t believe I’d enjoy dating now if I had to do it all again.

It’s only a misdemeanor or worse if those actions make the stalked person feel uncomfortable or threatened. My wife had an ex arrested for harassment and stalking. The stalking allegation wasn’t one we could make stick, but the harassment DID stick. He was lucky all he got was a fine. From the point forward he’d about wet himself if he ever saw her in public.

There’s nothing exactly WRONG with surveilling someone except that the person may not like it if they found out about it. But learning someone’s habits, asking friends things without being creepy or threatening? Anybody can do that. You might even dodge a bullet seeing her in action when she’s not aware someone interested in her is watching. Might even have saved me some years of misery if I’d taken more time checking out a certain girl.

I was bulled by boys & girls when I was a kid & I was told more than a few times by adults that when a girl bullies a boy it is because she likes him. I've known various women online who admitted to playing hard-to-get when they were in their teens in order to attract a guy. I think that mindset is sometimes part of the reason why some people stay in abusive relationships. They assume that their partner being mean to them really means that their partner loves them a lot or some cr@p like that.

I understand that No means No & I tried to be respectful of that when trying to get a girlfriend when I was single. However most women were not that direct with me which threw me for a loop. They would say they were busy or something & I'd suggest a different day thinking they really were busy. Looking back I realize that I coulda got in aLOT of trouble & I coulda really creeped them out. I was sooo much of a dunce then that I did NOT realize that an indirect No was a No. When a woman told me she was not interested in me or not wanting a boyfriend or whatever, I felt bad about being rejected but I accepted that I was rejected & I was very willing to be her online friend or be friendly with her at work without an ulterior motive of us possibly getting together down the road. I like talking to nice people. I'm an Aspie who majorly sux at reading between the lines. I really need others to be straightforward with me & I am straightforward with them but it repels lots of people away from me I never wanted to make those women feel bad or put them on the spot.

Some people think of Aspergers as being an extreme male brain & I noticed that lots of guys on dating sites mention hating mind-games in their profiles. I suspect those guys may be talking about that hard-to-get cr@p or women not being direct enough about saying No when they mean No.

I have NO sympathy for the guys who cat-call & refuse to take a direct No as a No, especially if they are trying to act tough or threatening. Those guys are the real creeps who ruin things for the guys like me that want to be nice & do right but s#ck with indirectness. I feel really bad for the unfortunate woman who have to tolerate their BS. I don't get how those guys think that any women would find that attractive. I think trying to scare somebody into getting with them is totally deserving for them to get kicked in their crotch. Maybe those guys would be scared off if the woman would talk like she was possessed or something

I don't think asking one (or even two) more time(s) is a bad thing, because it is hard for anyone to be sure when a stated conflict is real or a push off. After all, women truly CAN be busy. I remember seeing a guy on some show responding to the woman with something like "can I suggest another time or will all my suggestions have a conflict?" I rather like that one. It's an indirect way of being sure and implies some self-awareness.